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Old November 29, 2007, 02:30 AM   #1
Willie D
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Grip: Thumb on top of safety? (and other questions)

I've been experimenting with different grips and stances recently after watching that Todd Jarrett video. I only have about a year's experience shooting pistols and I'm not very good at it (much more comfortable with rifles). I have a Ruger MK2 and just got a CZ75.

I had been shooting with a Weaver stance, left foot forward, weak eye closed. I'm trying out a square-to-the-target stance, keeping both eyes open, sometimes thumb on top of safety like Jarret, sometimes not. Sometimes shooting with corrective lenses, sometimes not (I don't wear glasses everyday but my eyes are on the brink).

Maybe I'm fooling with too much stuff at once. I think I've gotten better with the .22 using the square stance and a high thumb but possibly worse with the 9mm. I can get 20 shots with the MK2 mostly within a 4" area at 7 yards. With the CZ I usually get the 1st DA shot an inch or two NW of the bullseye, a few shots grouped a few inches under the bull around 7 o'clock and the rest seem to scatter all over the paper.

I bought the CZ and changed stances at the same time and I've yet to shoot a good group with the CZ. I did better with my old EAA Witness when I used the weaver/dynamic tension sort of stance with one eye. The test sheet for the CZ said it had a 9 cm spread at 25m so it probably isn't the gun. Maybe I'm having problems with the CZ's sights or possibly even having trouble with the new targets at my range that are more like hollow rings than traditional bullseyes.


Any comments, suggestions or reading/viewing recomendations would be appreciated.
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Old November 29, 2007, 03:03 AM   #2
Wildalaska
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You know, gods honest truth I have been thinking about the general scenario of your questions and toss this out...

If you have been shooting handgun only for a year, I submit that any problems you are having are as a result of still developing fundamentals, ie breath, aim and most importantly trigger control.

Stick your hand in your back pocket and bullseye shoot that .22 until the lead and grunge seizes it up. Get yourself to the point that you and the trigger are one.

Then go play with stances.

WildiwantabrowningmedalistagainAlaska TM
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Old November 29, 2007, 07:24 AM   #3
Don P
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New shooter

+1 +1 +1 Wild, practice, practice, and practice some more as Wild stated trigger control. Be comfy, have fun with it, and most importantly, DO IT SAFELY as in my signiture.
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Old November 29, 2007, 01:23 PM   #4
spacemanspiff
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Dryfire that CZ in double action mode. Build up your finger strength so that your SA pull is smooth as silk.

Describe your trigger pull. Are you jerking it? Releasing the trigger quickly after the pull? I took a buddy to the range a couple weeks ago, and showed him in 2 minutes how to use the triggers 'sweet spot' and reduced his group size by 50%. All you have to do is maintain followthrough on the trigger, and only release the trigger until you feel it has reset, on some pistols this is a very short distance, which means that you use less muscles in your arms to manipulate the trigger, stay on target better.
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Old November 29, 2007, 01:44 PM   #5
dwatts47
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Quote:
Stick your hand in your back pocket and bullseye shoot that .22
I normally side with, and try not to even atempt to add to, WildAlaska's advice... This is one that I completely disagree with though.

Hand in the pocket bulleye shooting is in no way relative to learning to better handle the Double action CZ, clearly meant to be used as a self defense tool.

Keep both eyes open, use both hands. Jeff Cooper and Ken Hackathorn proved in the 60's that you'll shoot better with both hands on the gun.


David Watts.
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Old November 29, 2007, 01:49 PM   #6
Wildalaska
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Quote:
Hand in the pocket bulleye shooting is in no way relative to learning to better handle the Double action CZ, clearly meant to be used as a self defense tool.
Breath, trigger control, concentration...concentration...becoming one with the gun....concentration

The DA technique will follow

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Old November 29, 2007, 01:54 PM   #7
dwatts47
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Quote:
Breath, trigger control, concentration...concentration...becoming one with the gun....concentration

The DA technique will follow


Well, now that I agree with.


WildmakesusalllookunknowldgeablesometimeshuhAlaska.

how's this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Old November 29, 2007, 02:52 PM   #8
Willie D
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The CZ still feels like a lot of recoil to me, I've basically gotten to disregard the kick of the MKII. On the CZ I sometimes wince a bit before pulling the trigger, other times I think I'm anticipating the muzzle flip and letting the muzzle go up. When I shoot a lot of 30.06 I also get worse as I go whereas with a smaller cartridge I do get fatigued but recoil and a sore shoulder don't figure in as much.

I may also be hurrying through the last third of the magazine. I had wanted to establish that the gun was reliable and have mostly been shooting full mags but maybe I should only load 5 or 10 shots.

With the 2 arms outstretched stance I don't think I hold the heavier gun as steady at the weaver.

Finally, on the gun itself: The rear sight cutout seems small; very little daylight is visible on either side of the front sight making is hard to establish when it is centered.
The green dots are small and not very visible.
On the rear sight the right dot is printed slightly higher and further from the center than the left one.
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Old December 2, 2007, 10:12 AM   #9
Lurper
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Willie,
Watch this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=oQgLmQl1zDw

The key points w/the grip are: don't exert any undue pressure with either thumb and don't grip too tightly. Leave your strong hand thumb on the safety, not "sometimes". Just let it rest there without putting pressure on the gun.
You would probably be better served by firing your CZ single action for the first few practice sessions. Practice a smooth steady trigger press. Dry fire while focusing on pressing the trigger. One way to check yourself is: if you know when the shot is going to break, you are not pressing the trigger smoothly. You should not be able to predict when the shot will break, it should surprise you. This holds true whether you are shooting fast or slow.

If you were taught Weaver style by someone (not yourself), then your most difficult transition will be learning to relax. You want a neutral grip/stance. If you have a neutral grip/stance, the gun will want to return to where it started from. Watch the amount of tension in your arms and hands. You don't want a lot. Your wrists should be firm, elbows relaxed. This will help you with rapid follow-up shots later on (watch some of the other videos and you will see what I mean). Right now, just try to get the feel of the grip/stance combination.

As far as the sights go: a sight is a sight is a sight. If you are having trouble with your sight picture/alignment, dry fire and focus your concentration on seeing the front sight clearly. Don't overthink it by trying to be exact. If you can see daylight on either side of the post, then it is aligned. Just focus on keeping it in focus, you can perfect precision later.

Try that first and see what happens.
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