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Old November 24, 2007, 07:37 PM   #1
njtrigger
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What if a gang attacked me?

I keep seeing a trend among degenerates to attack people 5-6 to 1, pummel/kick them to the ground and rob them as an afterthought. It seems like the victims of these coward attacks never have a chance.

These clowns surround their victim 360 Degrees and swarm them.

My question is this: Are there any current training techniques/disciplines geared specifically for this type of threat in handgun, knife or impact weapon, or martial arts?

I understand situational awareness and addressing multiple targets on the range, but being circled is something different if the situation gets out of hand or you are unarmed.

All ideas and observations welcome
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Old November 24, 2007, 07:50 PM   #2
Hammer1
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Sounds like a good reason to be armed.
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Old November 24, 2007, 07:52 PM   #3
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Do not put your self in those situations.
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Old November 24, 2007, 09:27 PM   #4
Andyman57
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What if a gang attacked me?

Always try and be armed; however, if you can't be; the next best thing is to try and avoid situations like that at all costs, also, if you find yourself in that kind of situation and unarmed, go for the groin, the eyes, a simultaneous hard clap on both ears with the palms of your hands; disable the perpetrator as best you can, then run.

Also, if you can take some kick boxing or martial arts training; it would really benefit you!
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Old November 24, 2007, 09:38 PM   #5
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Yeah, best bet is to stay away from those situations. Or travel in groups.
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Old November 24, 2007, 10:44 PM   #6
skywalkrNCSU
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if you are not armed then try things like throat punches, eye gouges, groin shots, etc. basically no holds barred here and you will be fighting for your life so try to inflict as much pain as quickly as you can and avoid the ground at all costs.
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Old November 24, 2007, 11:03 PM   #7
Malexander
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I was once assaulted by 5-8 guys my age (17) at a party. I was blind drunk and probably said something stupid. In any case, they followed me outside and surrounded me. I don't remember much, but according to a mate of mine I'd seized one of them in a bear hug wrapping my arms so tight around his neck that he could barely breathe and them locked my legs up on his legs so he couldn't get off me. I'd them fallen backwards.

Though not the best move it turned out that they were fairly surprised I did anything at all. I was able to use the guy on the ground as a shield so they couldn't kick me as easily. Fortunately, none of them had a knife - the commonest weapon in the UK.

On reflection, the best thing is to not get into that situation in the first place. I'm older and far wiser now and have never put myself in that situation again.

Interestingly a mate of mine, a black belt in tae kwon doe, was assaulted on his way out of a party last year by a group of 4 guys. He put one guys nose through the back of his skull and then kicked his way to his car.

I'd been taking jujitsu training for about a year when I was attacked and I've no doubt that it helped. However, martial arts are no substitution for being quick witted and, preferably, heavily armed.
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Old November 24, 2007, 11:13 PM   #8
Wildalaska
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Do not put your self in those situations.
Good point.

The chances of random gang attack on any normal civilian on any given day is smaller than a lightning strike.

Murder and assault are not usually stranger crimes

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Old November 24, 2007, 11:49 PM   #9
The Tourist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njtrigge
degenerates...attack people
First off, we don't like being called degenerates. We prefer to be called "Scruple-challenged Americans."

Another thing, we also have the same right to peaceful assembly. We don't need you "holier than thou" trouble makers hanging around breathing stale beer on us bragging, "You think you're so tough..."

The better question is, why did you provoke us? Did the chrome from my bike make your uppity Rolex watch look like what it actually is, that being, quartz jeweled testicles.

Did you mutter to your buddy about how a "real man" would put us in line? Did you leer at one of our wives? Did you try and corner one of us alone in the bathroom?

You see, I look at your whining from a different perspective. In my life, most of the trouble is actually caused by smart-azz townies, too much beer and wild bragging.

If you want to scratch with the big chickens, then take the results of your foolishlessness like a man. If not, go swagger at a Dairy Queen where the teenagers will be impressed.
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Old November 25, 2007, 08:36 AM   #10
Tanzer
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(Still cross-eyed from Tourist's reply), I can say that you've noted a bad situation. USUALLY avoidable, but no guarantee. As for me, I'm thinking 1/2 cornered cat, and 1/2 amature linebacker. No matter the pain, whatever, I'd charge the circle with everything I could muster. Getting outside would be my top priority. If I could achieve this, I'm now looking a tightly grouped pack of jack*sses, and the tables have turned. Can't guarantee it, but it would be my fist, second, and third action.
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Old November 25, 2007, 09:04 AM   #11
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I keep seeing a trend among degenerates to attack people 5-6 to 1, pummel/kick them to the ground and rob them as an afterthought. It seems like the victims of these coward attacks never have a chance.
It is interesting that you called these "coward attacks." In watching John Walsh over the years (AMW) and reading posts on forums like this one, I have come to realize that the coward label is used to paint the bad guys in a negative light because we all know that being a coward is a bad thing and maybe even subhuman. Only lesser persons are cowards.

One should not confuse cowardice with strategic superiority. By attacking en masse, they help assure that the intended prey is overwhelmed. If the prey fights back, by having superior numbers, risk to any one member is reduced. So their chance of success is higher while at the same time their risk is lowered. It is not cowardice, but being smart.

Similarly, we called IEDs used against US forces in Iraq "cowardly acts" because the explosion is a form of ambush tactic for which US troops can't fight back because there is no visible enemy. Yet, we consider the lauching of cruise missiles from hundreds or thousands of miles distance or bombs dropped from planes that cannot be detected to not be acts of cowardice, but strategic...even though the people we are bombing have no visible enemy to fight back against when those happen. It is not cowardice, but being smart.

When bad guys are on the lamb and Walsh profiles them on AMW, he calls them cowards. When Scott O'Grady was shot down and evaded capture until he could be rescued, we called him a hero.

Rocked suggested...
Quote:
Yeah, best bet is to stay away from those situations. Or travel in groups.
If you engage in such tactics, do you consider these tactics to be those of cowardice or of being smart?

The point here is that by classifying your aggressors as cowards does nothing to help you understand the significance of the behavior/tactic being used and it potentially misdirects attention from salient insights.

With all that said, being attacked by 6 guys or more is a classic example of when 5 shots is not enough (for all those "Is a 5 shot revolver enough?" threads).
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Old November 25, 2007, 10:00 AM   #12
Dilligaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Spouted so much bilge water, we are having to abandon ship....
A gang attack against a lone pedestrian is not a tactical maneuver. It is not a coldly and logically planned act, done to insure numerical superiority, executed in a military manner to limit friendly casualties and to achieve an objective.

It is more akin to an attack by a pack of jackals. It is an attack en masse done by a weaker or less able (individually) animal against the oldest, weakest or sickest member of the herd. It is an attack done with the idea that they have chosen a victim that will not fight back, or fight so ineffectively that it might as well be no defense at all.

Comparing them to jackals is a bit of a disservice to jackals, though, because you don't see jackals attacking just for the joy of causing pain. You don't see jackals attacking just to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Instead, these sub-human trash only attack when they have a helpless victim; when there is no threat to themselves; when they can overwhelm a helpless opponent, inflict pain and injury and then brag about their prowess afterwards.

In short, they are petty, cowardly little thugs who need the emotional and physical backing of their thugish friends to overcome an unarmed and unwary civilian without the means to defend themselves.

As for your comment about traveling in groups for protection might be considered cowardly, that is just as much bull**** as your previous attempted defense. Herd behavior shows that traveling in groups, keeping the herd together, discourages the attack of lone predators and limits the potential damage to the weakest members.

The point here (to use your phrasing) is that lending credence to thuggish behavior by comparing it (poorly, I might add) to military tactics gives no legitimacy to the thugs or their tactics. It just makes you look like a bleeding heart idiot.
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Old November 25, 2007, 11:34 AM   #13
Rocked
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Well said Double Naught.

I was thinking along the lines of the first USMC Rule of Combat.

"Bring a weapon. Preferably, bring at least two. Bring all of your friends who have weapons. Bring their friends who have weapons. "
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Old November 25, 2007, 12:42 PM   #14
The Tourist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanzer
(Still cross-eyed from Tourist's reply)
C'mon, Tanzer, you should know me well enough by now to know that I'll stir the pot once in a while. We have townies all over Madison who spout the same thing--and I can't ever remember throwing an offensive (the opposite of 'defensive') punch during that five year period.

Yes, there are cases of singular people being attacked by multiple robbers.

And there are just as many singular loud-mouths that should know when to stop drinking.

When I hear these claims, I like to get the back story. When his tale of woe begins with, "All I was doing was sitting on this biker's Harley when everything went black and I woke up in a dumpster. I was a victim..."

Or some mall ninja decides to take a stroll through a ghetto at zero-dark-thirty and is baffled to find crime.

Common sense, boys.
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Old November 25, 2007, 01:06 PM   #15
Capt Charlie
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For the life of me, I can't see where njtrigger singled out bikers, Tourist. In fact, I rarely hear of bikers being referred to as a gang. I think he's referring more to true gangs like MS-13, Crips, Bloods, etc.

While the warning signs should be evident before someone finds himself in that situation, random attacks do happen and seem to be on the increase. Gang initiations? Simply for "fun"? Who knows, but the queston's a valid one.

In any case, this needs to be toned down a bit. History notes that wars have started over misunderstandings .
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Old November 25, 2007, 01:08 PM   #16
Tanzer
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Tourist,
Actually, and not meaning to sound rude, I thought you were joking and forgot to put the smiley icon in place.
I'll give you this... There are plenty of idiots who ask for it, and are stupid enough not to know what they did. I took this thread however as relating to those few who truly are picked out as victims. I think that's where the OP was going.
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Old November 25, 2007, 01:15 PM   #17
willson73
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Advice once given to me

My CCW instructor presented this type of scenario. He said that he would, "Shoot the one with the biggest mouth first."

While there is no guarantee that the cowards are not armed, they likely wouldn't need so many people if they were, and they run the risk of shooting each other if they're circling you. The idea behind his statement is kind of like the old adage, "If you cut the head off a snake..."
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Old November 25, 2007, 01:19 PM   #18
The Tourist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanzer
I thought you were joking and forgot to put the smiley icon in place.
Yes, you are correct. I am among friends here, and I should have included a smilie.

But this issue has two sides. I am a tad thin-skinned about the ploy that "everyone is a victim."

I have seen labels on irons that say, "Do not iron creases while wearing the garment."

As you know, some idiot somewhere took a scalding hot clothing iron to his body and then decided to sue the company for big bucks.

And as I have told you, there seems to be something both magnetic and kharmic about me and delicious cheeseburgers. I no sooner smell that wonderful aroma of meat, cheese and lightly sauted onions when a drunken townie mystically appears at my elbow to debate 'toughness' through all eleven of his remaining teeth.

Yes, there is gang related crime. I just want the members of TFL to know that there are also mouthy idiots who just cannot sit quietly and enjoy a beverage while I eat.
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Old November 25, 2007, 02:01 PM   #19
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random attacks do happen and seem to be on the increase.
Odd fact is that around the Hampton Road area of Virginia, many random attacks are also being video taped...by the attackers.

So far, no mention by the media as to whether these attacks are initiations or just malicious pranks, but I suspect they are definitely gang related.

Regardless, there is an ongoing case here in this area where a mob actually killed a victim, probably accidentally, but dead just the same.

And these random attacks are occurring much more frequently than lightning strikes...

Anyway, my preferred method to avoid these ruffians is to to keep myself armed, my head on a swivel and myself out of "hinky" areas.

Oh...and I always look for the leader of any group that I might encounter. He/she goes with me if it comes down to it.
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Old November 25, 2007, 03:44 PM   #20
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"Bring a weapon. Preferably, bring at least two. Bring all of your friends who have weapons. Bring their friends who have weapons. "
And so you are suggested the USMC is a bunch of cowards? Of course not. You are suggesting they plan on taking their opposition successfully by overwhelming the opposition in numbers and power.
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Old November 25, 2007, 04:33 PM   #21
Rocked
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Exactly. If there was a chance of me being in a fight, mugged, or whatever, I would want as many of my friends with me as I could get. I dont see it as being a coward (I know I cant fight well) I see it as being smart and prepared.
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Old November 25, 2007, 04:48 PM   #22
sgtdemeo
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a few thoughts

First off, Gangs overwhelmingly single out Members of rival gangs for this kind of attack. while i am sure that there are no doubt random attacks of this kind, they are much more rare than getting attacked by a single person. But to my main point.... in a situation like this, if you are in the center of a circle of people who had the ability of being corralled, the last thing i would want to do is flash a weapon, due to the fact that you will undoubtably end up on the receiving end of it. if you waited till that point to take your first action, then its too late. your first defense should be the situational awareness to have steered clear of that in the first place. these attacks do not happen to "random" people. they happen to people who advertise themselves as easy targets. Just my 2 cents.
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Old November 25, 2007, 08:51 PM   #23
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Instead, these sub-human trash only attack when they have a helpless victim; when there is no threat to themselves; when they can overwhelm a helpless opponent, inflict pain and injury and then brag about their prowess afterwards.

In short, they are petty, cowardly little thugs who need the emotional and physical backing of their thugish friends to overcome an unarmed and unwary civilian without the means to defend themselves.
Well said, Dilligaf. I agree with the entire post. They are also cowards because instead of working hard and studying themselves up to a comfortable living, they choose the quick way of relieving other people of their hard-earned money. Simple cowardly trash.
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Old November 25, 2007, 10:44 PM   #24
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The mistake here is the assumption that if there is one man by himself, he must be the victim. If he engages a group, then the group must be the aggressors.

Not true.

I have often cited the newspaper story about three jackers who tried to steal a man's car. The owner of the car pulled out his firearm and killed one of his attackers.

For the rest of this article, the newspaper referred to the dead jacker as "the victim."

He is not the victim. He's the attacker, and as an attacker, he lost.

The victim does not cease being the victim just because he won.

Now, let me put a face on this. I don't care how many members of a bike club are sitting quietly having a cool drink if the townie starts the ruckus.

I don't care if the odds are 50 to 1. If the townie threatens a member of this majority, the townie does not become the victim just because he gets stomped for being stupid.

Now, consider this. To the far political left, all of us who love firearms are inbred rednecks. Our character is impugned simply because the opposing side seeks to define us by an unjustified standard.

Same deal here. Get the back story. Do not assume that the lone guy is always the victim.

Frankly, if I was to pick the troublemaker out of a group before the fight started, I would always look for the little Barney Fife guy with a chip on his shoulder. Those little guys are the start of more fights than any group of lounging bikers.
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Old November 25, 2007, 11:04 PM   #25
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People who engage in multiple aggressor attacks are cowards when on their own. Their degenerated wish, as a group, to attack randomly selected people isn't smart, it's animalistic and as such is met with contempt by the majority, including the newspress writers. One on one they can't make it. Sure, they may have the muscle, but the brains is lacking, and if the vicitim is armed they need to be 6 to even the odds. ****ing apes.
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