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View Poll Results: Shoot or Don't Shoot... Please READ ENTIRE POST FIRST!!!
Shoot Him: He might shoot you otherwise. 59 72.84%
Draw and Hold Him for the Police (assuming he complies) 19 23.46%
Keep You Gun Holstered and Hand Over the Money (assuming no overt threats) 3 3.70%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 24, 2007, 11:50 AM   #1
stephen426
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Another Shoot or Don't Shoot Thread... With a Twist

First of all, this is not another "tactic cool" thread. The idea of this poll is to find out whether or not you SHOULD shoot someone robbing you if you had the opportunity. Since this is a gun forum, I want you guys to really pause for a moment and think before simply choosing the "Blast'em" option.

Here is the scenario:
You are the owner of a business and someone comes in to rob you at gun point. So far, the bad guy has made no indication that he wants to hurt anyone. He probably justs wants the money, but you never know. Lets say something distracts the robber and you have a chance to draw your weapon. Do you shoot him, tell him to drop his weapon, or leave your gun holstered and hope he just takes the money and leaves.

Lets throw in a few qualifying statements here:
-Your money is insured against theft less a deductible.
-There is little chance of collateral damage (no bystanders for you to hit)
-The robber has been acting in a calm manner so far without overtly threatening anyone.
-The robber is not wearing a mask and you have seen his face, but it is not someone you know (not a former employee)

Here are the options:
-Shoot Him: Compliance does not gaurantee he will not shoot you.
-Draw your Weapon and Tell Him to Drop His. If he complies, hold him for police. He may decide to run away which for most becomes a no shoot scenario. If he does not comply and points his weapon at you, everyone would say to shoot.
-Hand over the Money and leave you weapon holstered as long as he is not overtly threatened to kill anyone (but you never know).

Other Considerations:
If you shoot the person and kill him, his family may try to come after you civilly. This may end up costing you lots of money to defend assuming the case is accepted by the courts, probably even more so than the money you would have lost to the robber, especially since it is insured. His family may try to come after you or your family personally for revenge (unfortunately genocide is not an option). You have to consider that you could be followed or that they could ambush you when you leave your business. You cannot simply pick up and leave everything behind. A lot of information is also public record. Once they have your name, they can look up marriage records (to locate your family) and property records (to locate your home and how much you paid for your house). There is also a lot of other information that is public that is there for prying eyes. You also have to consider that succesful robberies with no resistance may lead to future robberies (bad guys like to brag). The final consideration is you never know for sure if the guy is going to shoot you.

What would you guys do?
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Old November 24, 2007, 12:15 PM   #2
homefires
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Put the dog down!

If he wants to take your goodies via gun point, He ant Santa Clause!


I owe him or his family NOTHING!


He made that choice by his actions. I Didn't!

How do I know he isn't going to take the money, look me square in the eyes! In the most polite voice possible say " Thank You So Much Sir " BANG!
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Old November 24, 2007, 01:00 PM   #3
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Can't vote; it depends on every little detail about his demeanor and how threatening. Probably however, draw and hold UNLESS and UNTIL his gun's muzzle BEGINS to point within 45 degrees of my body; then shoot.
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Old November 24, 2007, 03:42 PM   #4
rampage841512
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The only decision to be made, if any, once you are already being robbed should be to shoot immediately or try to hold'em for LEOs. All of the decisions should have been made when you decided to carry a firearm. The only one I think you might want to save for a time when snap decisions are necessary is "Shoot, or attempt to hold at gun point." Waiting until the event occurs to put thought into all of the things that need to be considered is probably way to late.

Think first, that way when the time comes all you have to do is act.
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Old November 24, 2007, 05:39 PM   #5
joe poteat
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I would shoot him (at least twice) I am sure no one was ever shot dead by a calm armed robber.
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Old November 24, 2007, 05:46 PM   #6
elza
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I chose #1. Things happen way to fast to give the criminal any type of edge. If there is ANY chance that something will happen to me or mine, I opt for 'me'.
Quote:
If you shoot the person and kill him, his family may try to come after you civilly.
This is no longer a concern in Texas so it doesn't impact my answer.
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Old November 24, 2007, 05:52 PM   #7
Sigma 40 Blaster
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I guess I am one of the very few who would give the guy a chance to live while defending myself and my property. You can play the well...maybe he'll retaliate or what if....game to death. At the end of the day I am thinking that if this guy just runs away/goes to jail he'll never come back and wouldn't risk coming back because that would definitely result in a shooting.

If I can draw and point my gun and he doesn't respond with an attempt to shoot he doesn't want to KILL me. I do not think I'd let the guy flee the scene though, our justice system is far from perfect but an attempted arm robber needs to face the music for his actions.

I will say that if that gun moves towards me OR is already pointed at me than I'm assuming intent to KILL and will defend myself without words.

Since an overwhelming majority voted for shoot first, think later, I wish more would respond as to why not give a brief option to comply with a command to freeze and drop it before shooting IF you are not already looking down a muzzle.
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Old November 24, 2007, 06:02 PM   #8
grimcreeper
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i say shoot him.anyone who pulls out a gun,or a knife,or ANY weapon with the intent to rob IS OVERTLY THREATENING and will be treated as such ie:two to the chest one to the head.
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Old November 24, 2007, 06:06 PM   #9
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Shoot center mass and get the guy on his back as fast as possible.

First, 'stopping' is not killing. He is in the act of a felony and many states also assess penalties if a gun is used.

You're not a mind read reader. Simply because he is calm at the moment, does not mean you won't be herded into a back room and shot later.

Three, you have a chance at a gun and a shot now. You do not know if that chance will present itself again.

Finally, so what if the felons family sues you? Anyone can sue you at any time for any thing.

File a counter suit for abuse of process, intentional infliction of emotional distress, attorney's fees and failing to toilet their kid when they had control of him.
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Old November 24, 2007, 06:29 PM   #10
one-shot-one
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i believe

that if you are the one: "You are the owner of a business and someone comes in to rob you at gun point."
then this statment: "The robber has been acting in a calm manner so far without overtly threatening anyone." probably wont make you feel much better.
my dad always told me never point a gun at anything you are NOT willing to destroy. got give the robber that same respect, if he has pointed a gun at you then he must be willing to shoot you there for the only answer to your question is to defend yourself with any and all options available to you.
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Old November 24, 2007, 06:34 PM   #11
The Tourist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one-shot-one
give the robber that same respect
Exactly why would you respect a felon who has violated your business, is attempting to steal your profits, intimidate your clients and bring lethal weapons within firing distance?
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Old November 24, 2007, 07:27 PM   #12
finrot
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I would say it depends on what state you are in . If I shot him in CT. regardless of circumstance I'D probably be in deep s--t. If not legally the survivors would probably sue my ass off and win. In Texas ???
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Old November 24, 2007, 07:58 PM   #13
Quadvet
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Right is right: Shoot him.

As has been stated many times in the past here, anything else i.e. letting the robber get away is nothing less than contributing to the decline of a moral society, even if he is jailed.

From what I've read lurking here, it sees to be a great debate.

My first job at 16 years old was a small gas station in an isolated logging town of 1100. The owner had a small slide-auto, showed me how to run it and said simply "don't let anyone rob me". Of course that was back in the day when things were more clear-cut... God I feel old.
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Old November 24, 2007, 11:14 PM   #14
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Moving to Tactics & Training.
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Old November 25, 2007, 01:59 AM   #15
stephen426
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I think you guys are missing the point here. The money is insured. For states that prevent families of deceased scumbags from suing, it eliminates the civil suit problem. The problem becomes what if they go after you OR YOUR FAMILY as retaliation. It is impossible to protect them 100% of the time. I'm still of the mindset to shoot, but my wife and parents are concerned, especially with the holiday season starting off.
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Old November 25, 2007, 02:42 AM   #16
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I also hate to state a very obvious point here, but if the felon is dead, it makes your account of the situation the final word.

Even if other citizens are in the store and have their opinions, your statement of, "I thought we were in mortal danger," pretty much closes the door on a rebuttal.

A security camera would show a felon in a robbery attempt with a firearm. He would not be around to establish his slant on the film.

As to any civil trial, just who would the family call to testify? You, or the witnesses who are grateful to be alive?
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Old November 25, 2007, 08:17 AM   #17
Tanzer
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Not really answering here, just adding a few things the OP may not have considered - pro and con.
1) A calm demeaner means jack sh*t. He's most likely bipolar, and about to go into a different mode when his brain chemistry changes (the reality of seeing the money, and realizing he now needs to get out of the store).
2) He has the drop on you - big time! If you're CC'ing, good luck getting out your weapon under that kind of stress.
3) I may not be CC'ing. If I'm running a jewelry or similar store, I'm in a shirt and tie. Not easy to conceal a usefull weapon (there "may or may not be" one under the counter already pointed in his direction though). If it's my business, on my property, I may have the option to OC, but probably would not as this makes quite a telegraph, and might scare away the lady buying a Rolex for her hubby, and the 12 K earrings. I figure that gun store owners OC because they are obviously armed. Depends on the business. A lawn mower store is a different ballgame.
4) If he doesn't know he's on camera, he's more of a nut than you're giving him credit for.
5) I seriously doubt I'm going to try to hold him in an environment that can change at any moment (customer enters, etc)
So, Overall, I'd PROBABLY not give him a second chance if he made the mistake of giving me the time I needed.
I used to frequent a gas station at which the booth was bullet proof glass. It had a break-away lever inside, and a LOADED shotgun at an angle just over the average Joe's head. One step on a pedal, and one quick pull, and a 12 GA Mossy was saying "HELLO"at your face. I knew the guy enough for him to show me the system.
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Old November 25, 2007, 12:28 PM   #18
The Tourist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanzer
He's most likely bipolar
Oh, c'mon, guy. I'm bi-polar and it took three doctors and an MMPI2 test to verify and diagnose that!

Do you seriously expect a tradesman, waiting on a customer, to accurately ascertain the mental accuity of a bandit based on seconds of observation of demeanor?

Heck, where were you twenty years ago? I could have saved a fortune on medical costs!
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Old November 25, 2007, 12:59 PM   #19
Tanzer
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Okay, bipolar -too specific, you got me on that one.
Quote:
Do you seriously expect a tradesman, waiting on a customer, to accurately ascertain the mental accuity of a bandit based on seconds of observation of demeanor?
Instead of bipolar - how about; So da*m psycho that he's robbing a store at gunpoint and not showing any emotion? I'm not going to thumb through the Journal of the American Straight Jacket Society to figure out what the H*LL is wrong with him, or how to properly phrase his "Challenge" as it relates to behaving like he's standing at his own personal ATM. I'm going to figure that he stands out like a guy with horns and a goatee wearing a red suit at a monastary.
Sorry if I used the wrong terminology, I'll try to be more general in the future.
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Old November 25, 2007, 01:07 PM   #20
rampage841512
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Quote:
I think you guys are missing the point here. The money is insured. For states that prevent families of deceased scumbags from suing, it eliminates the civil suit problem. The problem becomes what if they go after you OR YOUR FAMILY as retaliation. It is impossible to protect them 100% of the time. I'm still of the mindset to shoot, but my wife and parents are concerned, especially with the holiday season starting off.
Decide now whether you are going to act to protect yourself from an immediate threat or take your chances on getting murdered in order to protect your family from one that probably only exists in your imagination. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just even more unlikely than the BG not shooting or in some other way harming you if you comply.

Anyway, if your family is so concerned, encourage them to get the training they need to keep themselves safe. If they refuse, it's on them at that point when they are not with you. You're only one man.
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Old November 25, 2007, 01:22 PM   #21
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Something else to consider

Based on the scenario, I'm assuming that the robber is armed and presenting his weapon, and pointing it at me. I don't care how 'calmly' the robber is acting, if someone has the immediate opportunity, and I perceive there is intent (a gun pointed at me) I'm shooting. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

I'm not talking about protecting my money or store, I don't want that bad guy to very calmly shoot me!
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Old November 25, 2007, 01:28 PM   #22
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Negotiate! Tell him his choice in life is wrong. You might want to explain to him that stealing from hard working folk is not the correct thing to do. Ask him gently why he's so angry as to use a gun to take what isn't his. Offer him your money and roll over and beg for your life explaining that you are a good liberal and you're against the death penalty. Should he not be gone with your money at this point, ask him the one second you need to kiss your ass goodby.

Quite frankly, it's a stupid question.
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Old November 25, 2007, 03:36 PM   #23
one-shot-one
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what i mean

"Exactly why would you respect a felon"
i mean you should respect the fact that if he is willing to point a gun at you he is willing to "destroy" you and therefore no matter how calm or polite he may be behaving other than pointing the gun at you, you should do what ever is nessacery to make sure that you are the one to walkaway from this situation not him!
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Old November 25, 2007, 03:39 PM   #24
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Since I can not read the mind of the robber, I can only go by what I am presented with...a person pointing at me what I must presume is a loaded weapon. Since he is pointing it at me and demanding something that I have, I can only presume that he is prepared to shoot me for it. I am not ready to die just yet, so I would draw and shoot him first.

I am not protecting my money or merchandise by shooting him...I am protecting my life because he is pointing a gun at me while committing a crime.
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Old November 25, 2007, 07:04 PM   #25
stephen426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rampage841512
Decide now whether you are going to act to protect yourself from an immediate threat or take your chances on getting murdered in order to protect your family from one that probably only exists in your imagination. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just even more unlikely than the BG not shooting or in some other way harming you if you comply.

Anyway, if your family is so concerned, encourage them to get the training they need to keep themselves safe. If they refuse, it's on them at that point when they are not with you. You're only one man.
Thank you. Your response is the most on point so far. I have already decided to carry and defend my life with lethal force if needed. I made that decision years ago when I first started carrying.

My parents and my wife did raise some valid concerns so I figured I would ask the forum their opinion. I find it rather pathetic that our legal system allows the family of scumbag criminals to sue when they get what they deserved even though the courts have ruled it a justifiable self-defense shooting. The retaliation concern is also valid and no amoount of coaxing or pleading can force my wife or parents to become sufficiently proficient with a firearm to defend themselves. Even if armed, there is still the possibility that they could be killed. After all, even lucky shots kill. You also need to consider that there is a tremendous amount of information that is public record and bad guys have equal access to this info. I do not advocate rolling over by any means, but it does give one something to think about.

Would the results change if the robber was an obvious gang banger? I'm saying it could go wither way since there is a higher likelihood of retaliation. There is also a possibility that this is an "initiation robbery/killing" where he will kill you no matter what.

Just a quick question... Does anyone have access to reliable data that shows what percentage of robberies involve shots fired vs. no shots fired? I would hate for those results to support my parents stance of no resistance, no injuries.
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