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Old November 15, 2007, 12:28 PM   #76
SR420
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my ultimate goal is a durable, reliable, accurate rifle that stands up to hard use and wear
Your M14 type is exactly the rifle you need to meet your ultimate goal. It may need to be tweaked, but what doesn't.

The AR-10 can be very accurate out of the box. I have an AR-10A4 SPR with an SWS free float tube that should shoot MOA or better.
I have never fired it because I want to replace it with another M14 type rifle.

HTH ~
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Old November 15, 2007, 12:40 PM   #77
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Well one of the things that gives me pause is that I still have these images in my mind of pictures from Vietnam of M16s that are held together with duct tape. Doesn’t go a long way to build confidence. Of course those pictures are from a long time ago, I don’t really know where the weapon stands today.
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Old November 15, 2007, 01:19 PM   #78
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The AR-10 can be very accurate out of the box. I have an AR-10A4 SPR with an SWS free float tube that should shoot MOA or better.
I have never fired it because I want to replace it with another M14 type rifle.
So you're nostalgic, that's great. There are lots of people who feel the same way about the M1 Garand, 1903 Springfield, SMLE, K98, etc. That doesn't mean these arms are still the right choice for a modern, well equipped, most powerful military in the world. We have the resources to deploy a cutting edge weapon system such as the SCAR and assuming it lives up to its promises (which SOCOM thinks it does) then that's the direction we should go.
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Old November 15, 2007, 01:55 PM   #79
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EngineerMG,

I speak with our troops on a regular basis due to my line of work. They all pretty much share your same point of view, at least the majority of them (there are a few exceptions). The 5.56 is getting the job done, and shot placement trumps caliber.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, it is worth far more than that of several people with no real life fire-fighting experience.

There's no doubt the 5.56 is a compromise, every cartridge is a compromise of something.

Thanks for your service, stay safe!
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Old November 15, 2007, 04:36 PM   #80
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It would be interesting to see the terminal ballistics at that distance, but seldom is the case in combat, and a kill is a kill regardless.
Most of the alleged problems with 5.56 hits revolve around three major issues. The first being most people are not all that great of shots, when you throw in non-rifle range conditions, moving targets and unknown distances the chances of making extended range hits go down drastically. The second being that at extended ranges M855 has been shown to have accuracy issues. Several lots of ammo have already proven that at 400 meters they lose the accuracy potential to assure 100 percent of rounds will go into a E silhouette even with a center mass hold, forget about a reduced target exposure. The third being that most troops lack a frame of reference as to what rounds actually do to people. When the only thing they know is what they see in the movie, TV and what is told to them third hand, you get comments like "lack if knock down" capability. However after you see people hit with various rounds you quickly understand some guys can take anything to include almost being ripped in half and will continue to fight and no switch in caliber will do any better.

Number 1 and 2 can be seen in two ways, the Marine Corps chose the ACOG vice the CCO and had less complaints about extended range lethality. The ACOG does make it easier to hit at distance because of autoranging and magnification than it is with a 0x M68. And when issued 556 SDMs, both with and without Mk262 there is allot less complaints about lethality of 556 even well beyond fragmentation range of either projectile. It just goes to show that it doesn't matter if it is a .223 or .308 hole in the chest, a hole in the chest sucks and will take most out of the fight.
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Old November 15, 2007, 06:36 PM   #81
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We have the resources to deploy a cutting edge weapon system such as the SCAR and assuming it lives up to its promises (which SOCOM thinks it does) then that's the direction we should go.
You are so progressive, and that's great ... versions of the SCAR L&H do show promise, but why don't we just wait for hand held phasers.
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Old November 15, 2007, 09:09 PM   #82
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You are so progressive, and that's great ... versions of the SCAR L&H do show promise, but why don't we just wait for hand held phasers.
Now you're just plain not making any sense. It would help to be a little more objective. The M14 is in service until a more modern system can be found and tested. We're not waiting another 200 years for phasers. I'm sure FN would be flattered at your analogy in comparing their rifle so something as futuristic as a phaser though.
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Old November 15, 2007, 09:57 PM   #83
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I'm sure FN would be flattered at your analogy in comparing their rifle so something as futuristic as a phaser though.




HCQB: Less than 8 lbs unloaded

http://www.fnhusa.com/products/firea...045&gid=FNG007
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Last edited by SR420; November 17, 2007 at 09:39 PM.
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Old November 15, 2007, 11:25 PM   #84
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Someone put up a link to a after market stock for the M-14 recently that looked really good. Anyone know what that was?
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Old November 16, 2007, 12:10 AM   #85
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http://www.securityarms.com/sale/sage/sagestocks.htm
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Old November 16, 2007, 07:17 PM   #86
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Wow, that stock on the M1A is horrible. It looks like what they did to the mini-14's in Starship Troopers.



If you want a modern rifle, buy one... don't take a beautiful classic like the M1A and wrap it in something so silly looking.
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Last edited by Sturmgewehre; November 16, 2007 at 10:08 PM.
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Old November 17, 2007, 12:35 PM   #87
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^ I wholeheartedly agree.
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Old November 17, 2007, 04:16 PM   #88
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Actually I’ve been doing some research since I posted that and it looks like the Troy MCS is the way to go. I’m seeing reports that the Troy gives amazing accuracy improvements and better than the Sage. My only concern is the weight.

As for modern verses classic… well, like I said I’m looking for three things Durability, Reliability, Accuracy, and… OK 4 things, kinetic energy.

Yeah I saw that Bull Pup setup. Don’t know how it will work. It’s gotta change the balance and unless it makes improvements in the accuracy I don’t even really see the point.
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Old November 17, 2007, 05:23 PM   #89
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If you want a modern rifle, buy one... don't take a beautiful classic like the M1A and wrap it in something so silly looking.
LOL that Bullpup movie prop is FUBAR

I much prefer the TROY MCS and the SAGE EBR over the old classic look.



If you want a rifle for classic looks, buy one ... but I'll buy function over looks any day of the week.
Anything less would be silly.
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Last edited by SR420; November 17, 2007 at 06:00 PM.
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Old November 17, 2007, 09:48 PM   #90
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Here’s some interesting stuff on the Troy MCS

http://www.m14firinglineforum.com/up...ad.php?t=47960

I found this one to be especially interesting.

http://www.m14firinglineforum.com/up...ad.php?t=47673

And here is the site for that Bull Pup setup. (Not the one from Starship Troopers.)

http://www.shortrifles.com/index.html
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Old November 17, 2007, 10:05 PM   #91
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That Bull Pup setup is interesting, I’ll be curious to see what people have to say about it after they’ve been in use for a while. If it can deliver groups like those in that second link I might get real interested.

Just sitting here thinking about it, it would put most of the weight close to your own center of gravity so it might just handle real well. I wonder what the over all weight of it is.
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Old November 17, 2007, 10:15 PM   #92
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Additional information on the TROY MCS is available here: http://m14hdw.us
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Old November 18, 2007, 12:05 AM   #93
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I much prefer the TROY MCS and the SAGE EBR over the old classic look.
Top one, nice.

Bottom one, looks silly. I would laugh at a dude with that on the range. He would have tacti-cool clothing on, knee pads, helmet and a fake badge trying to play SWAT.
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Old November 18, 2007, 03:01 AM   #94
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i wouldn't laugh at any dude with a fake badge and a 7.62 m14 bullpup. Now thats silly.
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Old November 18, 2007, 08:57 AM   #95
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I would laugh at a dude with that on the range. He would have tacti-cool clothing on, knee pads, helmet and a fake badge trying to play SWAT.

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Old November 18, 2007, 09:20 AM   #96
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Enuf wanderin' off in the bushes...
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