The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 19, 2007, 06:58 PM   #1
GASCHECK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Posts: 218
CVA Electra

Shooters:

I just finished reading an article about the CVA Electra black powder rifle.

Maybe I am a wuss, but I don't care too much for the idea of pouring powder down the barrel of a rifle with the ignition system in place. Sure, they say the firing circut is broken in several places. . . . .
If the battery itself could be removed and replaced quickly for each shot, then I would consider it.
Sadly, I think it will go the way of the Remington EtronX.
Comments, anyone??

Gaschceck
GASCHECK is offline  
Old October 19, 2007, 07:14 PM   #2
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,776
New ruling means they are not legal for muzzleloader season here in Florida.
Doyle is offline  
Old October 20, 2007, 05:22 AM   #3
Raider2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 717
The most modern that I'm willing to go with muzzle loaders is my 209 primed inline Traditions Yukon otherwise I don't think it has a place in the realms of primitive firearms.

I too am a bit weary of the ignition source still intact on the weapon while I'm loading, I work on automobiles for a living & have seen some weird stuff when it comes to the electrical of a car that makes me this way, unless you can physically disconnect the electrical source from the rest of the device you can never be 100% sure that it is safe.
Raider2000 is offline  
Old October 22, 2007, 05:10 AM   #4
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
There's probably just as much, if not more of a chance, that black powder can explode on impact during loading too, since it is impact sensitive. Plus burning embers causing a premature firing have been known to happen. But not being 100% safe doesn't seem to stop people from using black powder.
If the Electra is used with substitute powders, without the known hazards of using black powder, then the triple safety system should be relatively fail safe.
1. There's a master on/off switch.
2. Then there's the safety switch.
3. Plus there's the trigger which acts as the 3rd switch.
Plus there is a LED status light that blinks when it's on safe, and which stays on when the rifle is ready to be fired.
That's a lot of switches designed to keep the power from accidently flowing to the ignition element.

If the separate main switch is turned off, how is the power going to bypass all of these switches and accidently activate the element?
Being afraid of a new design without knowing all of the design details doesn't sound like reasonable objectivity to me, but rather fear of the unknown.
What possibility is there that an electrical malfunction could actually cause an unintended discharge?
Maybe it's more possible that the gun will not fire as intended because of all of these backup safety systems. Who really knows?

With an automobile, there's only one keyed ignition switch. So maybe that's why the battery is usually disconnected, and because of all of the exposed wires, connections and moving components in close proximity to where the mechanic is using tools with his bare hands.

Target shooting really has nothing to do with whether or not the Electra is considered to be a primitive firearm.

Anyway, no one is ever suppose to place their head over the muzzle of any BP gun when loading, but should load with only their hands being in the direct line of fire.
Then if unintended ignition did occur during loading, there's a chance that the hands will be pushed out of the way, and much less of a chance of being shot in the head.

Last edited by arcticap; October 23, 2007 at 03:13 AM.
arcticap is offline  
Old October 22, 2007, 05:50 AM   #5
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,759
Articap - well said. My thoughts exactly.
mykeal is offline  
Old October 22, 2007, 05:00 PM   #6
GASCHECK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Posts: 218
But why bother? Why introduce the complexity? What's wrong with percussion cap ignition, or musket cap, or shotshell primer . . .it just goes on and on . . .smokless powder in muzzleloaders, sabots, modern optics. We are getting FAR from the original flavor of black powder firearms.
I was told that Pennsylvania permits only flintlocks. Good for them. Want extra hunting days? Accept the handicap!
As for fearing the unknown, it's saved a lot of bacon!!!

Gascheck
GASCHECK is offline  
Old October 22, 2007, 09:39 PM   #7
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,759
Quote:
As for fearing the unknown, it's saved a lot of bacon!!!
And missed a lot of venison.

With respect, quit yer bitchin'. If you don't like the Electra, don't buy one. But don't rant about those who do. The chasm between gun owners is exactly the thing the anti-gunners want to see. We need to be on the same side.

Nobody said anything was wrong with percussion or flintlock ignition. The Electra buyers (and there aren't that many) aren't trashing the traditional guns. The only people who are complaining are those who don't like the electronic ignition. I don't own one, nor do I intend to buy one, and I'm not in favor of using them during the "traditional" season, but frankly, I'm tired of the whining.
mykeal is offline  
Old October 22, 2007, 10:00 PM   #8
GASCHECK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Posts: 218
Mykeal:

I apologize if I annoyed you. I was just trying to get an opinion on the new technology. I don't shoot black powder rifles, only a Ruger Old Army. But I think my opinion on the modernization of the black powder rifles should be respected if not embraced.

I don't think I was whining, but if you took offense, so be it. I am not trying to stir up trouble or pit one group against another. Seems a discussion of black powder ignition systems as being benefit to the cause of anti-gunners is quite a reach.

Hey, just delete me! And Good shootin'!

Gascheck
GASCHECK is offline  
Old October 23, 2007, 12:06 AM   #9
tn gun runner
Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2007
Posts: 40
electic ignition, scope or laser sight, plastic stock, bolt action, convert to take cartrige and smokeless powder could make a good deer rifle out of it.
It took years to get a primitive guns and modern firearms separated for hunting , and modern so called muzzleloader, scoped and jacket bullels are ruining primitive hunting.. TN now lets crossbow with scopes hunt in archery season. I have a rem seven in 308, scoped and is no where as much to hunt with as a flint gun

Last edited by tn gun runner; October 23, 2007 at 12:09 AM. Reason: fotgot as
tn gun runner is offline  
Old October 23, 2007, 03:26 AM   #10
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
I probably wouldn't spend the money on one, but I can appreciate it for what it is, an innovative muzzle loader for doing some enjoyable shooting with. If it had a round ball twist, it would be that much better! And people are complaining that percussion caps are getting too expensive. What are the designers going to do, make us shoot round balls with centerfire or #209 primers?
Just make them all battery operated guns and we can save on all of the primers. Or better yet, make it a solar powered electronic gun! And if nobody buys them, the prices will drop too!
arcticap is offline  
Old October 23, 2007, 04:46 AM   #11
Raider2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 717
I too will apologise for my past remarks about this muzzle loader, I hope that I am 1,000,000,000% wrong in my previous thoughts but they are from my 20 years experience in the automotive field that makes me have my reservations.

Personally I plan not to buy one but to those who do I hope to hear their opinions on function & accuracy, & I too will admit that I am impressed to the inovative thought for the rifle.
Raider2000 is offline  
Old October 23, 2007, 09:46 AM   #12
KevininPa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2007
Posts: 177
If anyone is really into survivalism, this would fill a meat gathering role. No caps or primers to worry about. One could stock up on lead and mold their own. Those little solar battery charging units can keep you charged. And if worse comes to worse, you can make your own BP! Hey, if Captain Kirk can do it while being chased by a big lizard, so can you! That is of course for you guys who are old enough to remember that episode.


Kevin in Pa
KevininPa is offline  
Old October 23, 2007, 11:00 AM   #13
Wild Bill Bucks
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2005
Location: Southeastern Oklahoma, Next door to Sasquatch
Posts: 1,264
Just an observation, but I wonder how hard the ignition unit would be to keep clean? It must have to sit somewhere in the proximity of the powder charge, and would have to get powder residue just like a breech plug. If it is an electronic system, it can't be water freindly.

Just a thought.
Wild Bill Bucks is offline  
Old October 23, 2007, 11:20 AM   #14
Raider2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 717
Quote:
Just an observation, but I wonder how hard the ignition unit would be to keep clean? It must have to sit somewhere in the proximity of the powder charge, and would have to get powder residue just like a breech plug. If it is an electronic system, it can't be water freindly.

Just a thought.
I didn't think about that till I read your post & good thought.
Hmmmmmm makes the mind wonder....
Raider2000 is offline  
Old October 23, 2007, 04:53 PM   #15
GASCHECK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Posts: 218
Well, as far as a survival gun, I would rather have a flintlock. Sooner or later, the electronics are going to go. A solar cell is vulnerable, and I believe their life is limited.
There will always be some kind of rock to strike a spark.

Getting off track a little, if there was a nuclear exchange or some other total catastrophe, I would prefer to be at ground zero. In my opinion, Lyndon Johnson was right when he said "It will be a world where the living will envy the dead!"

Gascheck
GASCHECK is offline  
Old October 23, 2007, 07:16 PM   #16
Raider2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by GASCHECK
Well, as far as a survival gun, I would rather have a flintlock. Sooner or later, the electronics are going to go. A solar cell is vulnerable, and I believe their life is limited.
There will always be some kind of rock to strike a spark.

Getting off track a little, if there was a nuclear exchange or some other total catastrophe, I would prefer to be at ground zero. In my opinion, Lyndon Johnson was right when he said "It will be a world where the living will envy the dead!"

Gascheck
Well put, & I agree.
In a survival firearm, a Flinter has more to offer than just shooting a bullet using manufactured or home made Black Powder, the weapon could be used to make fire as well without using up precious ammunition.
Raider2000 is offline  
Old October 24, 2007, 01:21 AM   #17
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
The CVA video says that the arc unit is totally sealed and that it burns 5 times hotter than a #209 primer. It demonstrates how virtually all of the powder gets burned when compared to the #209 ignition.
There's a removable breechplug and a wire brush for cleaning it. The arc unit is completely contained within it.
They showed how to swab clean the barrel with solvent, and said that the manual gives instructions for complete takedown & cleaning. But they never mention water besides the waterproof housing for the electronics.
I suppose that they expect people to use non-corrosive powders to alleviate some of the need for water based cleaning. Since all of the powder supposedly burns, there won't be as much fouling. And without a flashhole, whatever residue that's produced is contained within the barrel too.
But the breechplug does look safe to pour some water into, but that's just my guess. There's no where for the water to leak out. So, just pour it out.

The video link is on this page:

http://www.cva.com/products/rifle_electra.htm
arcticap is offline  
Old October 24, 2007, 02:02 AM   #18
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
This brief range report about the Electra was posted several hours ago:

Quote:
The guy I went to the range with was sighting in his new CVA Electra. His load was 150gr of 777 pellets and a 270 Platinum Powerbelt. His load averaged just under 2100fps and shot about 1" at 100 yards. He also tried 100gr of pellets and it shot almost exactly 3" low to the 150 load and about 1800fps. Unfortunately for me he finished shooting about the same time I did and had put his gun up before I realized I hadn't got to shoot it. He said maybe next time since we both had to get going. I was impressed with the guns accuracy but it's not any more accurate than mine and it took him about as long to load and shoot as it did me. I didn't see any huge advantage in the system, just different in a couple of steps. I still want to shoot it just to say I have.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2401767
arcticap is offline  
Old October 24, 2007, 10:59 PM   #19
tn gun runner
Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2007
Posts: 40
I'm Going To Take My Barbecue Igniter An Put It The Flash Hole Of My Flinter And No Batterys Needed To Run It.. Sorry I'm From Old School And Don't Like Progress Please Don't Take Offence On Any Of My Post
tn gun runner is offline  
Old October 26, 2007, 03:16 PM   #20
GASCHECK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Posts: 218
Me too:
I guess I shouldn't complain about the modernization of black powder rifles. I shoot a Ruger Old Army. What could be more untraditional? Stainless steel, adjustable sights, modern lockwork with coil mainspring. Well, I guess I could hang a laser sight or a scope on it! Shame on me!
Gascheck
GASCHECK is offline  
Old October 26, 2007, 08:01 PM   #21
tn gun runner
Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2007
Posts: 40

here my modern bp I design and built, 3 moving parts ,douglas barrel and TC sights, made all the rest...I had a ruger old army and it would shoot the eye out a snake, I trade it for 44-40 vaquero
tn gun runner is offline  
Old October 27, 2007, 04:41 AM   #22
CamoCop
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 133
not only is the Electra illegal to use here in Florida during ML season, so is the Savage that uses smokeless powder.
CamoCop is offline  
Old December 25, 2007, 04:19 PM   #23
LawDog
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: September 15, 1999
Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket?
Posts: 4,194
I have a question.

When you ram the ball or bullet home on a traditional muzzle-loader, I assume that the air in the barrel escapes through the flash hole as the ball is seated.

I don't see anywhere in the Electra system for the air to go -- so I assume that as you ram the ball/bullet you are also compressing the air in the barrel.

Does this air-compression cause the Electra to require more effort to load?

If so, how much more effort? If not, why not?

LawDog
__________________
"The Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer."
--The 13th Warrior

Bona na Croin

The LawDog Files
LawDog is offline  
Old December 26, 2007, 08:11 AM   #24
rem870hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2007
Location: N.J. and trying to decide what state to move to.
Posts: 964
nj won't let you hunt with that here. it can only be cap or flint. PA idea of flint only is good i guess to an extent. but keeping it as primitive as possible is not bad all. who knows that electra may be put on the ban list in the future. but percussion cap or #209 for me. i have 1 caplock and 1 #209 . an like them both. the electric sounds nice but its not for me. maybe in the future for range time. but not for hunting. single barrel single shot is still just 1 shot. you have to make it count no matter what type of ignition it has.
rem870hunter is offline  
Old December 26, 2007, 10:27 AM   #25
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,937
tn, sounds like you`ve built a few potatoe guns. thats what we used to use as igniters on them(and a few cannons) got to agree with the point raider2000 stated as i too have been in automotive and electrical field for about 35 yrs. have seen many FAILSAFE SYSTEMS fail. i`m sure the engineers at cva have run the electra through the mill testing and have installed safety features as articap informed us on. i also work on supposedly FAILSAFE SYSTEMS all the time developed and tested by main auto manufacturers. one thing for sure i have learned through experience and schooling on electronics of anykind is that moisture and TIME are truely AN ENEMY of electronics. stop and think a minute how many guns you own 50 to 100yrs. old. another thing is, the more complex you make something mechanical(which includes a gun) more chances of something failing.just hope this particular rifle if it fails,( and i`m sure a few will, its mechanical) does not shoot at all rather than discharging by accident. as mykeal stated"we all need to be on the same side". thats true. as gun owners WE DON`T NEED ANY BAD PR. time will tell.
shortwave is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13094 seconds with 7 queries