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Old October 9, 2007, 11:11 PM   #1
wirepusher
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Accuracy problem CVA Wolf

Hi all,

My first muzzleloader (been shooting for life) is a CVA Wolf. I heard nothing but positive comments before I bought it. The problem is I have no accuracy with the thing. I'm using powerbelts as recommended with the literature in the gun. I've tried 245 and 295 grain powerbelts and have tried both two and three 50 grain Pyrodex pellets. I can come within 3 inches of the center of the target at 25 yards. I can't get a consistent pattern beyond that point. Most rounds are off the paper (12" by 12") at 50 yards. I have cleaned and cleaned it. I've tried swabbing after every shot and after every three shots. I'm shooting from a fixed table on a sandbag so I doubt it's poor tactics. I was a cop for 20 years and can hit anything with almost any gun. I'm a little baffled by this gun. Can anyone provide me with suggestions? I would rather not hunt with it than risk a bad shot on a deer. I'm thinking I might have gotten a bad gun, but I'm not experienced with black powder weapons and fear I may be missing something. I have a red dot sight on my shotgun and am thinking of adding it to the Wolf. Will it make a difference or is the barrell bad? Not used to being frustrated on the range. Help if you can...
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Old October 9, 2007, 11:25 PM   #2
marcseatac
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I have a CVA Optima Pro which is a similar rifle and I had the same issues. One thing is they do not like a standard #209 primer. Get some of the new Remington Kleanbore Muzzle Loader primers. Don't use pellets with Powerbelts use smaller loads of FFFg in the neighborhood of 80 grains. This turned my Optima into a tack driver at 100yds using 245 gr Powerbelts.

Others will tell you thiers shoot great with 3 pellets, and I suspect that some barrels may be better than others. For me the best combination that worked all the time was the Rem primers 80 gr FFFg T-7 and the 245 gr powerbelt.

This is an old thread about my rifle:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...light=accuracy
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Old October 10, 2007, 12:02 PM   #3
arcticap
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Here's 24 Basspro reviews for the Wolf. A few mention loads and sabots/bullets. Not every gun is going to like Powerbelts or pellets.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/st...00-3-1#reviews

There are many different sabot/bullet combinations and loose powders/pellets.
Then there is load development.
Usually with load development, a person starts at a lower powder level (70 or 80 grains maybe) and then works their way up in 5 grain increments until they start to gain or lose accuracy (even 10 grain increments with an inline).
Once you are on paper, then 50 yards should be good for sighting in.
And the fact that the Powerbelts aren't working well for you yet means that you either need to change the amount of powder or bullets (or even primers as mentioned).
I've read that the plastic skirt on the Powerbelts don't always separate from the base of the bullet, and that taking the skirt off and lubricating the joint and then replacing it, will help it to separate as it was intended to. But who knows if that will work for you.
You might want to try another sabot or bullet combination in the end, maybe a medium weight one like about 250 grains or so, that's the most commonly used.
Don't give up, that's part of the fun of muzzle loading. You should be able to get it to shoot at least into a paper plate everytime at 50 yards.
If there was a problem with the barrel, I can't think of anything except examining the crown for obvious defects. Chances are that it's something else.
And try to hold that gun firm & steady when you squeeze the trigger. These guns can jump around & recoil a lot when they go off.
I'm betting that you can work up the right loading & figure all of this out.
Let us know how it goes.

Last edited by arcticap; October 13, 2007 at 04:26 AM.
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Old October 10, 2007, 09:32 PM   #4
wirepusher
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Thanks for the input

Thanks for your input. I'll try the different primers and reduce the powder. I was about to change rounds. I guess I'm thinking I should change one thing at a time until I find the area where I need the most work. The fundamentals of shooting I have. I can drive nails with about any other gun. Thats what has me SO frustrated at this weapon. I don't really know how to give up...lol. Thanks again. I'll try your suggestions and post the results here when I know more.
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Old October 10, 2007, 10:37 PM   #5
tn gun runner
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your missing the fun of bp hunting... I built this 20 yrs ago [ not a kit gun ] and will put the meat on the table like they did over 100 yrs ago
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Old October 11, 2007, 05:39 AM   #6
wirepusher
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Don't write me off yet TN

Just starting in the sport there gun runner. A little success with my first black powder gun and it may give me confidence to go to something like that. Take care.
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Old October 11, 2007, 03:02 PM   #7
tn gun runner
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Don't give up on bp.. I had 60 or 70 muzzel loader in my life .. built a bunch and shot in 1000's of matches .. casting your bullets and making a magic lube is lots of fun. started bp in 1968 and fell in love with it.

here my design ... 357 douglas barrel and TC sight .. cloveleaf a round ball at 25 yds this is the 1st of 10 I built and sold be I retired
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Old October 11, 2007, 03:54 PM   #8
marcseatac
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When you go for a reasonably priced BP rifle you will have to work some to find what it likes. These guns are great, and good for people who are new to Black Powder shooting and hunting.

If you enjoy the sport you will almost assuredly end up collecting more rifles. The one thing to understand on these cheap CVA rifles is that the barrels are extruded meaning they are pulled molten, out through a die and cool as they are pulled through. This is a very hard process to control dimensionally. It is a very efficient manufacturing method however.

Many people find that guns like this fit their needs perfectly. If you live in a place where Whitetails run around in herds and it's like shooting fish in a barrel the Wolf is all you need.

Now if you go on a guided hunt in Alaska or Colorado you might be better with a Thompson Center or a Knight rifle. If you have patience you will get the Wolf shooting where it will make a good hunting rifle.

The thing is to try everything. There are several Sabot makers and believe me when I tell you just the Sabot alone can make all the difference in the world. The powders available are like night and day in the way they perform.

The primers also can ruin your day and this is no area to try and scrimp. I believe any rifle regardless of quality or price is a better gun shooting the Remington or Winchester made for Muzzle Loader 209 primers. A standard 209 shotshell primer is just to hot for the purpose.

So, you have all these different Sabots and all the different bullets any many choices in propellant and many options for cleaning and barrel lubes. This is what makes it fun. The possibilities are endless. I suggest getting Lymans Black Powder Loading Manual, just reading the velocity charts will get you pointed the right direction. Good Luck and have fun!
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Old October 11, 2007, 04:31 PM   #9
45Marlin carbine
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you might consider scrubbing the bore with a next-size down jag and a 'patch' cut from a 3M handpad, medium grit. maybe polishing and deburring the bore will help, it has my cappers.
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Old October 11, 2007, 05:18 PM   #10
marcseatac
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+1 on bore polishing. Very good advice. Myself, I have not figured out what the proper method to use on this would be and don't want to ruin a barrel. It would seem to me that a person would want to use a freely rotating jag and I like the idea of maybe using scotch-brite. Maybe an expert who knows what he is doing will happen along and tell us more...........
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Old October 11, 2007, 08:48 PM   #11
wolverine350
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dont get discouraged i tried 8 different loads before i found out what my cva kodiak 50 liked, first of all it likes triple 7 loose powder, and 90 grains of it and second the 295 grain hp powerbelts, will shoot hole inside hole at 50 yards, was shooting here and there with pyrodex loose and different bullet types, just keep working with different loads and powders you will finsd a sweet one and when you do you will know it. if all else fails call cva they should be able to help out as well
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Old October 11, 2007, 09:32 PM   #12
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While my experience with PowerBelts covers only 5 rifles (CVA, TC and Cabelas) I have found that over loading is what will kill your accuracy. None of my rifles will shoot PBs with over 100 grains and 4 of them like 90 grains. The little CVA short barrel likes 70 grains best with the PB and 80 to 85 with PRB.

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Old October 12, 2007, 06:29 PM   #13
wolverine350
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power belts do work best with lighter powder charges, i get fantastic 50 yard groups with 90 grains loose triple 7 with the 295 gr hp, hole inside hole
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Old October 12, 2007, 09:49 PM   #14
wirepusher
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I think I'm there

First off thanks everyone for you input. Especially Marcseatac! 90 grains Triple 7 loose powder with 245 grain powerbelt at 50 yards and I'm right on. Only had time to lob 5 rounds down range this afternoon and all were within 3 inches of the center of target. The last two were touching and within an inch of the target center. By the way, I was already using the Remington Kleanbore primers (lucky selection I guess). Today a whitetail is one step closer to Heaven. Thanks all. This is a very cordial forum with knowledgable posters. I'll revisit often as I continue to explore my new BP hobby. Thanks again.
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Old October 13, 2007, 11:59 AM   #15
marcseatac
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That Triple Seven is some kick ass stuff. I have a theory that the reason ML'ers lose accuracy with higher loads is because slow burning powders create turbulence at the time the bullet is leaving the barrel crown.

What you want is a sudden hard shock wave as the powder converts itself to gas. Thats what you get with Triple Seven.

An analogy would be like striking a golf ball hard one time, or hitting it with 20 soft strokes and trying to get it going in the right direction. I have used American Pioneer and load up 100 grains and can find unburned powder still left around the muzzle. It seems to me that some of the powder goes off initially, then as the bullet starts to move, the unburned powder continues in fits and starts to release it's energy.

I've been experimenting with heavy conicals and I think that the potential energy (at rest) of the heavy lead bullet causes the smaller charge that is not a long column of powder (it's under square not over square) to be completely consumed meaning that you get more efficient energy than you might with a heavier charge and a lighter bullet converting to kinetic energy (in motion) that actually leaves the barrel early in the process of the powder converting itself to gas.

And I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!

Happy hunting..............

Last edited by marcseatac; October 13, 2007 at 03:43 PM.
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