Anything Smaller than a .410?

ZeroJunk · October 2, 2007, 11:17 AM

I have a friend says he has a 9MM trapdoor shotgun.I haven't seen it.He said it was made in the 1850's.When I told him that it doesn't make sense he promptly said "you calling me a liar?"I didn't think they made shells until about 1870.Can't see how a trapdoor muzzle loader would work.He says it is a smoothbore.Any body have any guess as to what he might have?

Omaha-BeenGlockin · October 2, 2007, 01:01 PM

Recall somebody offering a .22LR smoothbore a few years back.

mikejonestkd · October 2, 2007, 01:25 PM

I believe it was marlin that had the bolt action .22 smoothbore.

DWARREN123 · October 2, 2007, 02:30 PM

Yes, in the past there were 22lr, 9mm and a few other shotguns type firearms. Also many rimfires in what are now centerfire calibers.

K80Geoff · October 2, 2007, 07:11 PM

Marlin still makes a .22lr smoothebore, and a .22mag also.

rodney1968 · October 2, 2007, 07:22 PM

my dad has a .22 remington routledge bore (smoothe)for .22shotshells

RJay · October 2, 2007, 07:40 PM

Sure, they made several 9MM shotguns, both in center fire and rim fire. And would you believe 7MM, 310, .32 rimfire 6MM, and the 20 Wingo. Your friends gun may date to the 1850's but none of these shells were used in it until the 1920's except maybe the .32 rimfire in the late 1880's.
Your friend may have a old trapdoor that was bored out and re chambered. This was a common thing to do with these old surplus guns to make them usable, but , 9mm,I don't think so. .410 or 20 gauge I can believe, but if it is a old trapdoor, then why chamber it with a European cambering?

Dave McC · October 2, 2007, 08:31 PM

9mm "Garden Guns" were made and used. Like the 410, they were meant to eliminate pests where noise and overshot were not wanted. IIRC, these came in both rimfire and certerfire versions.

There was a 32 gauge also. A little more than the 410 but not much.

Scorch · October 2, 2007, 08:41 PM

Last time I looked at a Navy Arms catalog (15-20 years ago), they still had 9mm shotshells in both rimfire and centerfire. But considering that the self-contained cartridge was invented in the 1860s, you friend may just be wrong about the age of his shotgun. Lots of cheap small gauge shotguns imported and made for pest control up until the 1960s. Navy arms sold them until the 1960s or early 1970s. Many were made in Belgium, Spain, Italy, South America, etc. They cost about as much as a pellet gun, so they were never intended as a prime quality item.

I forgot all about Wingo!! Skeet in the living room! What were they thinking???

bobn · October 2, 2007, 09:53 PM

when i was stationed in morrocco in the early seventies the only gun a civlian could own was a 9mm shotgun. his maybe that old but reworked to a 9mm. bobn

Ruger4570 · October 2, 2007, 10:01 PM

I dunno, maybe I am missing something, but every Trap Door I have EVER seen was chambered for 45-70. I have some SERIOUS doubts any 9 MM round could have been chambered in one unless it was rebarrelled, Not to mention the fact in the 1850's there were NO cartridge guns made. So the 1850's claim is BS and as far as I can renmeber the 45-70 didn't appear til 1873 with inside priming.

T-Ray · October 2, 2007, 10:13 PM

do you need a smoothbore for ratshot? (out of a 22lr?

RJay · October 2, 2007, 10:24 PM

No, but out of a rifled barrel the effective range is only about 7 to 10 feet. Even at that close range .22 shot shells will have a doughnut pattern( hole in the middle). BTY The old Winchester rat shot is next to useless, if you have a use for .22 shot shells then use CCI's They are a little better. I do know for a fact that even the CCI's will not penetrate a single layer of denim at 15 feet, and please don't ask me how I know.

roy reali · October 3, 2007, 07:53 AM

A 410 gauge!

Hawg · October 3, 2007, 07:32 PM

Quote:

in the 1850's there were NO cartridge guns made.

Actually the .22 made it's debut in 1857 and the .44 rimfire in 1860. 9mm trapdoor? I don't think so. He's either jerking your chain or badly mistaken.

K80Geoff · October 3, 2007, 08:06 PM

32 Gauge is still around. Fiocchi still makes 32 ga ammo. Fairly close to the 28 in performance.

Not to be confused with 36 gauge, which is actually the 410 bore. 410 is really 67.5 ga but some euros refer to it as 36 ga and some guns are marked as such.

My 22 smoothie shoots usable patterns with CCI shotshells. I have whacked pigeons with it sitting on rafters in warehouses. Far safer than using a pellet gun.

October 2, 2007, 11:17 AM	#1
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	Anything Smaller than a .410? I have a friend says he has a 9MM trapdoor shotgun.I haven't seen it.He said it was made in the 1850's.When I told him that it doesn't make sense he promptly said "you calling me a liar?"I didn't think they made shells until about 1870.Can't see how a trapdoor muzzle loader would work.He says it is a smoothbore.Any body have any guess as to what he might have?

October 2, 2007, 01:01 PM	#2
Omaha-BeenGlockin Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 1,183	Recall somebody offering a .22LR smoothbore a few years back. __________________ I take the leech that's bleeding me Can't stop to save my soul I take the leash that's leading me -------Metallica

October 2, 2007, 01:25 PM	#3
mikejonestkd Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Brockport, NY Posts: 3,717	I believe it was marlin that had the bolt action .22 smoothbore. __________________ You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

October 2, 2007, 02:30 PM	#4
DWARREN123 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: BETWEEN TN & KY Posts: 1,758	Yes, in the past there were 22lr, 9mm and a few other shotguns type firearms. Also many rimfires in what are now centerfire calibers. __________________ Have a nice day!

October 2, 2007, 07:11 PM	#5
K80Geoff Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 1998 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 3,639	Marlin still makes a .22lr smoothebore, and a .22mag also. __________________ I am no longer a member of this forum. Bye!

October 2, 2007, 07:22 PM	#6
rodney1968 Member Join Date: October 4, 2006 Location: wilkes county NC Posts: 74	my dad has a .22 remington routledge bore (smoothe)for .22shotshells

October 2, 2007, 07:40 PM	#7
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Sure, they made several 9MM shotguns, both in center fire and rim fire. And would you believe 7MM, 310, .32 rimfire 6MM, and the 20 Wingo. Your friends gun may date to the 1850's but none of these shells were used in it until the 1920's except maybe the .32 rimfire in the late 1880's. Your friend may have a old trapdoor that was bored out and re chambered. This was a common thing to do with these old surplus guns to make them usable, but , 9mm,I don't think so. .410 or 20 gauge I can believe, but if it is a old trapdoor, then why chamber it with a European cambering?

October 2, 2007, 08:31 PM	#8
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	9mm "Garden Guns" were made and used. Like the 410, they were meant to eliminate pests where noise and overshot were not wanted. IIRC, these came in both rimfire and certerfire versions. There was a 32 gauge also. A little more than the 410 but not much.

October 2, 2007, 08:41 PM	#9
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Last time I looked at a Navy Arms catalog (15-20 years ago), they still had 9mm shotshells in both rimfire and centerfire. But considering that the self-contained cartridge was invented in the 1860s, you friend may just be wrong about the age of his shotgun. Lots of cheap small gauge shotguns imported and made for pest control up until the 1960s. Navy arms sold them until the 1960s or early 1970s. Many were made in Belgium, Spain, Italy, South America, etc. They cost about as much as a pellet gun, so they were never intended as a prime quality item. I forgot all about Wingo!! Skeet in the living room! What were they thinking??? __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

October 2, 2007, 09:53 PM	#10
bobn Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2006 Location: midwest Posts: 1,105	when i was stationed in morrocco in the early seventies the only gun a civlian could own was a 9mm shotgun. his maybe that old but reworked to a 9mm. bobn

October 2, 2007, 10:01 PM	#11
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	I dunno, maybe I am missing something, but every Trap Door I have EVER seen was chambered for 45-70. I have some SERIOUS doubts any 9 MM round could have been chambered in one unless it was rebarrelled, Not to mention the fact in the 1850's there were NO cartridge guns made. So the 1850's claim is BS and as far as I can renmeber the 45-70 didn't appear til 1873 with inside priming.

October 2, 2007, 10:13 PM	#12
T-Ray Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 288	do you need a smoothbore for ratshot? (out of a 22lr?

October 2, 2007, 10:24 PM	#13
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	No, but out of a rifled barrel the effective range is only about 7 to 10 feet. Even at that close range .22 shot shells will have a doughnut pattern( hole in the middle). BTY The old Winchester rat shot is next to useless, if you have a use for .22 shot shells then use CCI's They are a little better. I do know for a fact that even the CCI's will not penetrate a single layer of denim at 15 feet, and please don't ask me how I know.

October 3, 2007, 07:53 AM	#14
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	The Smallest A 410 gauge!

October 3, 2007, 08:06 PM	#16
K80Geoff Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 1998 Location: NE Pennsylvania Posts: 3,639	32 Gauge is still around. Fiocchi still makes 32 ga ammo. Fairly close to the 28 in performance. Not to be confused with 36 gauge, which is actually the 410 bore. 410 is really 67.5 ga but some euros refer to it as 36 ga and some guns are marked as such. My 22 smoothie shoots usable patterns with CCI shotshells. I have whacked pigeons with it sitting on rafters in warehouses. Far safer than using a pellet gun. __________________ I am no longer a member of this forum. Bye!