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Old September 30, 2007, 06:49 PM   #1
Wild Bill Bucks
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Savage ML II results

This thread is not intended as a platform from the traditionalist vs Everything else, but just to let you guys know what I found out over the last 2 days.

I got My new Savage Friday afternoon, and as soon as I got home with it, I did a visual inspection of the rifle. Everything looked fine except for the "hack saw" looking riflings down the barrel. I used some fine grit "Novus" scratch remover, and polished the barrel with 100 strokes. This cleaned the riflings very well. I then cleaned the breech plug and greased it, and the vent liner, as was recommended. I then bore sighted a Burris Fullfield 4X14 scope and I was ready for the range.

Saturday morning, I went to the range with some Vit. #110 and my 250 grain .452 Hornady bullets and MMP Black short sabots. I loaded 42 grains of powder, popped in a federal #209 primer and took a shot.

I got lucky and my bore sighting put the first round about 2" high and 1" left at 50 yards. I reloaded without any swabbing the barrel (which is why I bought the rifle in the first place) and took another shot. The two holes were touching, so I made the adjustments on the scope, and let the rifle sit for about 15 minutes. I did not clean the barrel or use a swab of any kind.

The next shot was right in the bullseye, and I moved to the 100 yard range.
After about 5 or 10 minutes I loaded another round, and at 100 yards I was hitting about 1" high and 1" to the right, so I made a scope adjustment and the next 3 rounds were inside a 3/4" group, dead center.

I took about 3 more hours of shooting and shot about 16 more shots, and never cleaned the barrel or the action of the rifle, although I did break the breech plug loose at about the 8th shot, and retightened it.

I believe the rifle to be everything that it is hyped up to be,as far as accuracy is concerned, and I think a guy could shoot it all day without cleaning, and the rifle will maintain a useable hunting group (within a 1 1/2" group)

After I got home I took the breech plug out and cleaned the plug and vent liner, wiped down the barrel and applied the oil and grease in all the right spots, and was through with clean up in about 5 minutes.

Everything about the rifle is easy to use, and clean, and has the best accuracy of any muzzle loader I have owned. The recoil is quite a bit lighter than I was used to, which is a big plus for me, and although I don't own a chronograh, the load I am using reports almost 2300fps.

Don't have any ranges around here longer than 100 yards, but I can't wait to go out and find someplace I can shoot at 200 yards, just to see what it will do.

Rifle is a little pricey at $620.00 (SSMLII with thumbhole lam. stock) but it was well worth the 6 months of saving it took me to get it.

Just some info for those of you thinking about takeing the plunge.

Last edited by Wild Bill Bucks; September 30, 2007 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Spelling: as usual
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Old September 30, 2007, 07:01 PM   #2
4V50 Gary
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Thank you for your report.

I only wished you had shot it before cleaning the hacksaw chatter from the bore. For me, the comparison would have been interesting.
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Old September 30, 2007, 07:02 PM   #3
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Those are some fine ML rifles they make there at Savage Arms & you are the second that I've seen with very positive remarks about them, but alas Moma would kill me if I was to go out & buy one "kind of the reason why I don't have a TC Encore."

Schweet shooting my friend & congrats on your choice in ML hunting weapon.
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Old September 30, 2007, 07:15 PM   #4
Wild Bill Bucks
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Gary,

I didn't even think about it, but you are right, the results would have been interesting. I was a little surprised to see how much cutting debris was left on the riflings. I have never bought a rifle that had that many, so, not wanting the rifle to leave a bad taste in my mouth right off the bat, I polished them out without even thinking about a comparison.
If any of you guys buy one, and it is in the same shape, let us know how much of a difference the cuttings make. Thanks.
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Old September 30, 2007, 10:52 PM   #5
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Only 5 minutes of cleaning and no swabbing? If all muzzle loaders would only clean up that easily, we'd all think that we were in some kind of muzzle loader heaven!
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Old October 1, 2007, 06:17 PM   #6
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One of the guys I hunt with is a pawn shop owner. He "stole" one from a hard-up customer wanting to sell. He gave him $100 for it. He is always running into great deals like this.
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Old October 2, 2007, 12:34 PM   #7
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Savage 10ML II

Sounds real good, WBB - congrats. That will be one of my next 3-4 gun acquisitions, and my next ML acquisition. When I get mine, I'll shoot it before polishing the rifling....
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Old October 13, 2007, 09:24 PM   #8
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I have a stainless Savage 10 ML II .50 with a laminated wood stock. I used a set of stainless steel Warne quick disconnect rings and a silver Leupold 3x9 Vari X II. Right after I bought it I had Henry Ball (inventor of this type of smokeless muzzle loader) bed the barreled action to the stock and adjust the trigger. Other than than the scope, base and rings the only aftermarket add on was a T/C PowerRod ram rod.
Currently I am using his original load of 45 grains of AA5744, a .452 Hornady 300 grain XTP hollowpoint, the MMP short black sabot and a Wincester 209 primer. This load will shoot a clover leaf group with all holes touching at 100 yards consistently if I do my part.

Points to ponder are letting the barrel cool COMPLETELY between shots, consistent pressure on the ram rod seating the bullet over the powder, making sure each one of the four petals of the sabot engage one of the lands of the rifling, and carefully working up loads from minimum to avoid "blowing" the sabot.

IMHO the Savage 10 ML II is one of the strongest and most accurate muzzle loaders available off of the shelf. I love traditional rifles but I would rather spend my time doing something else beside cleaning up Pyrodex fouling.
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Old October 21, 2007, 08:00 PM   #9
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Wild Bill - question: How many loads/ how much load data came in the documentation with the MLII ?
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Old October 22, 2007, 12:31 PM   #10
Wild Bill Bucks
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FF,

Owners manuel only shows 3 types of powder for the rifle, but from what I gather off of some of the other forums, there are a lot of different powders that can be used. I started with Vit #110 and it seems to shoot very well.
I also suggest ordering some of the MMP sabots, as they seem to work better that anything else I have tried. The guy that owns MMP, invented the rifle and he makes sabots for lots of different companies, so I'm sure he has done extensive research for this rifle. Del Ramsey is his name, and I talked to a lady named Connie, when I called. She was VERY knowledgable and told me exactly what I needed.

I have been shooting the rifle all week, and I can't find anything to gripe about. As with anything, there are always some guys who will try to improve on the factory loads, but I figure the Savage Company has tried about everything out there with this rifle, and they are probably printing the best loads in their manuel.
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Old October 22, 2007, 03:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
The guy that owns MMP, invented the rifle and he makes sabots for lots of different companies, so I'm sure he has done extensive research for this rifle.
Pardon me but I think you will find that Henry Ball of Greensboro, N.C. built the very first smokeless muzzleloader based on the Mini Mauser bolt action back in 1990, I am proud to say that Henry Ball is an friend of mine and I own several of his rifles.

Quote:
September 20, 1990, may not be a memorable day for you, but it was a day that changed muzzleloading indelibly. On that day, North Carolina's Henry C. Ball was shooting his sidelock muzzleloader at the range, and its action failed. Henry, a southpaw, caught the metal screw from his sidelock's bolster drum in his right arm traveling through his forearm, finally coming to rest some two inches above his right elbow on the back side of his triceps. Mr. Ball underwent surgery later that day.
Using 209 shotshell primers from the inception, in a unique ignition module, Henry successfully adapted his smokeless muzzleloader ideas to the InterArms Mark X action for starters in 1990, following quickly with a Sako bolt action, an H &R action, a Ruger #1 action, and a rolling block. Someone told Henry it couldn't be done with the Winchester 1894 action, so he quickly did that too.
Henry's design was better than good, it was great-and captured the imagination of muzzleloading expert Toby Bridges shortly after its inception. Manufacture continued on a small, custom basis for years, until a discussion with President Ron Coburn of Savage Arms at the 1999 "SHOT SHOW." A short-action Savage was sent off to Henry Ball for his module magic, and the original Savage 10-ML was tested in June of the same year. In late July, Henry Ball took the trek to Savage Arms for demonstration and further testing. Apparently the twinkle in Ron Coburn's eye said it all, as the deal was done in February 2000, with some 1900 production Savage 10-ML's shipped late that year.


from Randy Wakeman's site
"Instant Slamification:
The Savage 10ML Story"
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Old October 22, 2007, 03:47 PM   #12
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These are loads from the archives Of Henry's son, Bill Ball.

Quote:
ACCURATE ARMS XMP-5744 (this is my favorite powder so far)


41.0 gr 250gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,170 FPS 2,612 FPE
41.0 gr 300gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,110 FPS 2,940 FPE
44.0 gr 250gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,267 FPS 2,837 FPE
44.0 gr 300gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,218 FPS 3,270 FPE
45.0 gr 250gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,276 FPS 2,858 FPE
45.0 gr 300gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,232 FPS 3,290 FPE
45.0 gr 225gr Speer .451 JHP 2,288 FPS 2,610 FPE
47.0 gr 250gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,298 FPS 2,925 FPE
47.0 gr 250gr Barnes .45 Expander-MZ 2,313 FPS 2,962 FPE

VIHTAVOURI N110


41.0 gr 250gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,240 FPS 2,785 FPE
41.0 gr 300gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,133 FPS 3,030 FPE
44.5 gr 250gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,368 FPS 3,100 FPE
44.5 gr 300gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,244 FPS 3,360 FPE
44.5 gr 250gr Barnes .45 Expander-MZ 2,374 FPS 3,125 FPE

these loads are using the LEE 3.7cc powder dipper:

Approx. 44.4 gr. 250gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,353 FPS 3,075 FPE
Approx. 44.4 gr. 300gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,227 FPS 3,300 FPE

ALLIANT 2400

34.0 gr 250 gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,170 FPS 2,612 FPE
34.0 gr 300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 2,090 FPS 2,910 FPE

THREE 50 GRAIN PYRODEX PELLETS

250 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,955 FPS 2,125 FPE
300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,908 FPS 2,430 FPE

PYRODEX “RS” SELECT

100 gr 250 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,620 FPS 1,455 FPE
100 gr 300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,555 FPS 1,605 FPE
120 gr 250 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,694 FPS 1,587 FPE
120 gr 300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,615 FPS 1,740 FPE


PYRODEX “P”

100 gr 250 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,678 FPS 1,562 FPE
100 gr 300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,593 FPS 1,695 FPE
120 gr 250 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,729 FPS 1,660 FPE
120 gr 300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,630 FPS 1,770 FPE
150 gr 250 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,870 FPS 1,940 FPE
150 gr 300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,784 FPS 2,250 FPE
170 gr 250 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,973 FPS 2,162 FPE
170 gr 300 gr Hornady .452 XTP 1,849 FPS 2,280 FPE
This info was also lifted from Randy Wakeman's website.

Thanks Randy
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Old October 23, 2007, 09:24 AM   #13
Wild Bill Bucks
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Riddleosteel,

Pardon the mistake, you are exactly right. Ball was the man. Need to get my head out of my dark place, before I post.
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Old October 24, 2007, 09:31 PM   #14
riddleofsteel
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No problem.

Have you found your pet load yet?
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Old October 25, 2007, 12:10 AM   #15
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I have a crazy question. Has anyone tried to use a really really slow powder like H870? If you used enough of it and a heavy bullet, you might be able to get some interesting performance without high pressures.

When you don't have H870 at full pressure it seems to burn much cooler. My 22-250 heats up much slower when I use it in my loads.
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Old October 25, 2007, 09:46 AM   #16
Wild Bill Bucks
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Best load yet is Vit #110 @ 42 grains with 250 grain .452 Hornady Bullet.
At 100 yards it will put 1" groups together, and it is to close to season to experiment. By next year I will have done some EXTENSIVE research with some other stuff. I love the way the gun shoots already.
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Old November 2, 2007, 10:10 AM   #17
Wild Bill Bucks
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Most of you guys are probably to busy with the season, to think about it right now, but I thought I would mention it anyway.

When I bought the rifle, I could not find one at the local shop to physically put my hands on, and I had to order one. When I got it in I noticed that with my small hands, that the thumb-hole stock is a little thick for me, and it forces me to pull the trigger a little sideways every now and then.
This is not an issue at the range, as all you have to do in case of a misfire, is to re-cock the rifle. In a hunting situation, where you may be forced to shoot while leaning around a tree or in an ackward position, it becomes a real problem, as the deer won't hold still while you re-cock the rifle.(found this out the hard way opening week-end)

I know the accurelease on the trigger is a safety device, but I am going to have to re-place it in order to keep this from happening again. I want the gun to go BANG whether I'm pulling the trigger straight or not.

To pull the trigger straight back, I have to almost pull my thumb completely out of the stock, to get up on the trigger far enough. This voids the whole idea of a thumb-hole stock. The only alternative is to change the trigger, or cut the thumb-hole, and I can't see ruining the stock on a brand new rifle.

Don't know if I can get a Timney for it or not, but that seems to be my only alternative.

I have over 200 rounds fired from the rifle to date, and I have had this happen to me at the range about 8 or 10 times. There isn't anything wrong with the trigger or the rifle, it's just my hand size.

I thought I might mention, that before buying one, you might want to find one to put your hands on, if you have small hands.
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Old November 2, 2007, 01:05 PM   #18
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For me, seeing and smelling that big 'ol cloud of smoke is one of the greatest joys of shooting a muzzle loader. Call me old fashioned.
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Old March 2, 2008, 12:58 PM   #19
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Just to up-date this old thread, I finally got a competetion trigger from Sharp Shooters. It took me 2 weeks to get an e-mail answer from them, and another 3 weeks to get the trigger. The trigger is great but I think they must be a mom and pop type of place, because I called them about 20 times over about 2 weeks, before I could get an answer. They are the ONLY place that I found that makes a replacement trigger for the MLII.

I had a local gun smith install it for me and had it set on 2 1/2 pounds. The Gun now shoots when I pull the trigger, regardless of the position I am in. The safety of the gun did not seem to be effected in the least, and knowing the gun will go boom when I pull the trigger, gives me one less thing to worry about when I am hunting.

I have tried about 5 or 6 different powders and about 10 different bullet and sabot combinations in this rifle, and I am back to the original Vit #110, at 42 grains, MMP sabot and hornady .45 caliber 250 grain bullet.
Nothing I shot seems to be any better, and some shoot a whole lot worse than others. With the load I'm using, it will shoot poker chips at 100 yards, shot after shot.

The rifle (with scope) weighs considerable and is not one you woud want to carry on a stalking type of hunt, but from a stand it is unbeatable. This rifle shoots so accurate that I will use it if I have to put it on a freight dolly to get it to my stand.

I know this is an old thread, but I felt like the information, might be useful to any of you thinking about one.
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Old March 2, 2008, 05:27 PM   #20
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As I remember, one of the powders they recommend was IMR 4227. I missed two nice bucks using that powder because it would not ignite. I am now using Vit. 110. I like the rifle but hate the design of that bolt. I'm sure it wouldn't cost Savage any more money to design a better looking bolt, something like a Winchester Mod. 70 or a Remington 700.
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Old June 11, 2008, 12:21 PM   #21
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I just ordered the SS scoped model yesterday...I can'rt wait!

Anyone have load data for that one? Or are they all the same? Sorry for newbie question; I'm very, very new to blackpowder
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Old June 11, 2008, 04:00 PM   #22
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The stainless barrel is more rough than the blued.
It is too bad that Savage doesn't clean those bores up because these are great rifles. Although, as mentioned, it is not too much trouble to smooth out the bore.
I bought the blued with plastic stock Savage in 2003. This was before the accutrigger came out.
I have killed 3 deer with mine.
The first was with 43 grains of VV N110 and the 250 XTP.
The second two were with the same powder and the 250 SST.
I get 1 1/2 inch groups with the SST, and the XTP is slightly more accurate.
It is great to not have to clean after shooting. In fact, I killed a buck last November, and still have not cleaned my rifle!

The 4227 used to be a recommended powder but is now discredited, due to misfires. I dumped 3/4 of a pound of 4227 into the tomato patch.

I love the Savage.
One big advantage of this rifle is that aftermarket stocks are available from Richards microfit at rifle-stocks.com
This is because it is the same stock as used for the Savage centerfire rifle.
I am going to get a nice curly maple stock for my rifle.

Scrap 5000: A load that almost everybody gets good results with is 43 gr of VihtaVouri N110 and the 250 XTP.
You can order a box of 100 of the 250 XTP from Cabelas, and get the sabots from MMP.
This is also the cheapest load available for the Savage.
DO NOT use Remington primers.
I like Winchester.

Last edited by simonkenton; June 12, 2008 at 04:19 AM.
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Old June 11, 2008, 10:29 PM   #23
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Thanks simonkenton!
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Old June 12, 2008, 02:43 PM   #24
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simonkenton, can you please let me know if these are the combos you mentioned, and if so, do you use the .451 sabot? And does that the .452 bullet fit in it, since it's .451? Sorry, I'm confused...

Thanks!


Bullets: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...ets+&noImage=0


Sabots: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...bots&noImage=0
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Old June 12, 2008, 03:37 PM   #25
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Those are the right bullets.
As to the sabots, I am not sure. My MMP sabots are for either the .451 or the .452.
If I were you I would do what I did, contact MMP. They are very knowledgable about the Savage and will do you right. You can order directly from them.

Very important to get the right bullet and sabot for the Savage, it is a finicky beast.

Though the 250 XTP is very accurate and cheap, and thouands of deer have been killed with them with the Savage, a lot of guys are moving up to the 300 XTP for hunting.
The Savage drives the bullet so fast that sometimes the 250 will blow up if it hits the shoulder of a real big buck. Better penetration with the bigger bullet.
You could get a box of 250s and get the gun sighted in, and to use for cheap range work, and get a box of 300s for hunting.
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