The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 20, 2007, 11:36 PM   #1
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
SD Speed & Accuracy: How Am I doing?

SD Speed & Accuracy: How Am I doing?

Had a permit (CCW) for 5 mos - going to range to practice with self-defense the goal: I'm close (VERY) to 60, no real shooting experience before May. I've gone to range about 30 times since early May.

I've been working on quick-aim + accuracy. With 2 guns I mostly CCW (there's a 3rd, Colt Python I only occasionally carry) so far: Glock .45 Gap full-size I shoot pretty consistent bulls-eyes or very close up to 25 feet. After that: add an inch per 10 feet. Mostly I practice within the 25 ' area. Beyond 50': hardly practice at all. These are results with aim-time of a second and a half to two seconds. I make myself shoot under 2 seconds.

Same results with Colt Detective snub plus an inch. At 10' and under though quite a few bulls-eyes and under 3" for the rest. Weirdly, the few times I shoot at 50', I'm more accurate with the little Colt, usually 2 bulls-eyes or near, with 3 shots under 5", and one way off - on average. Same aim-time: 1 1/2 to 2 seconds.

So, how do experienced folks think this generally is going for me, given age, time shooting etc.? Also: what's a realistic goal for aim-speed at say, 15' or so? Half a sec or a sec.? Lastly, for closer than 6': if I imagine a BG, it seems too dangerous to keep focused on sights instead of the target - with a background image of the gun in a straight line while I hold the gun at eye-level. Seems too close and like it'd be too fast to do otherwise. My accuracy goes way off but I still get most shots with both guns within 4". This OK or should I keep using my sights as primary focus when really close? I also shoot fast and repeatedly when practicing real close to target.

Thanks for any feedback
gvf is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 12:39 AM   #2
ActivShootr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2007
Posts: 1,040
IMHO

Age has nothing to do with your shooting abilities. Sounds like you are a pretty good shot already. If you are practicing for SD situations then your abilities are well within the ranges of (most) SD situations. Do not let your skills diminish. Happy shooting and may you never have to use your weapon in combat.

Josh.
ActivShootr is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 12:39 AM   #3
PhoneCop
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 8
Just one guys opinion, based on an assumption- you did this from the draw...

Sounds like the BGs need to beware.

I practice a draw from holster to two shots on a USPSA target at 15' with two shots in the A zone. I set my par timer for 1.5 seconds. Sometimes I try for 1 shot in 1 second. It's rare, but I can do it. Most of the time I get the shot off in the A zone in 1.1 to 1.25 seconds

I also practice draw to two shots each on two and then three different targets at 2 seconds for two targets and 2.5 seconds for three targets.

I always see something of my sights, I once heard it called a flash sight picture, but enough to know the sights are generally lined up. I've never bothered to measure the groups, just get an A zone which approximates the center mass of the chest behind which resides the heart, major arteries, spinal cord, some of lungs. In a defense situation striking these areas is likely to equate to stopping the threat.

As long as you aren't missing the man sized target then you are accomplishing your goal, putting lead into a threat so it stops (dies or changes it mind/course of action)
PhoneCop is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 12:42 AM   #4
jrothWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Posts: 1,918
You are doing what...

all of us MUST do,e.g.: Practice, Practice, Practice!!!!

It sounds like you are getting reasonable groups, most of us CPL'ers have yet to be involved in a shoot situation. And would PREFER TO KEEP IT THAT WAY.

I prefer bowling pins as you get a clear reaction to hits, straight away means go dead center hit, topples and spins means offside hit, now you need a second shot to clear the table. and nothing more satisfyinh than clearing the table with a 2" .38.
Hope this helps.
jrothWA is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 03:17 AM   #5
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
Thanks all. Couple of points, no this isn't from draw, feel I need to practice draws for awhile with gun unloaded. Besides, it's fairly crowded public range,so I want to work slowly and in steps with my draws before I do them there with loaded weapons. So, I put my gun at my side, the raise it, and the 2 sec and under is my aim time. Probably from the side position to the shot is 3". I can see with a holster and live round it'll likely go to 4 secs. So, that should be the next thing I start to work with: drawing quickly and getting to aim quick (though the latter is part of what I do now). I hear the goal for the whole movement: from holster to completed shot should be 2 sec.

The other point about bowling pins: sounds great, no range here does that. The one I go to tho does have computerized target pulleys, so it's nice, you can quickly shoot at various distances. Expensive though: $18/hr plus ammo. But, if I carry , and started late in life, I feel it's just dumb and dangerous for everyone for me to walk around half-knowing what I'm doing. Not ethical. So, for awhile, that's the expense and that's the way it is. Comes with the territory I guess. (Plus I enjoy it!)
gvf is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 09:30 AM   #6
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
A basic goal I tell my CCW students to strive for is to hit a normal paper plate in under 2 seconds from their normal concealed carry. That is not a hard and fast rule, and personally I think the whole speed issue is grossly over-emphasized for DGU, but that gives a good goal that combines an appropriate level of accuracy and speed.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 10:40 AM   #7
PaulBk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2004
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 164
It sounds like you're doing well.

I have had a little professional training and shoot a couple of times per month for the last few years. I consider myself an average shooter.

Using a light cover garment (vest) I can draw and consistently hit the A zone of an IDPA target in less than 2 seconds out to 15'. Past that and either times go up or hits go down. At 21', I range from 1.75 to 2.25 seconds and 75% A zone hits. Go out to 30' or beyond and I'm shooting less than 60% in 2-3 seconds.

A more restricitive cover garment also adds 0.25 - 0.50 to my times.

My 2 cents.

-Paul
__________________
Hero's aren't born, they're cornered - According to Jim
PaulBk is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 10:41 AM   #8
PzGren
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2001
Posts: 917
Without any doubt, an advanced skill level is very comforting. A fight, however, has it's own dynamics. Often fights are won by aggressiveness and pure will to survive.

I would feel uncomfortable with a worse time than 1 second to make the first hit on a 9" standard paper plate at 7 yards from concealment. Dryfire and drawing practice is pretty cheap but can help cut the time down quite a bit...and with it the chances of survival.

RUready is just one tool on the way.
PzGren is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 12:46 PM   #9
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
I would feel uncomfortable with a worse time than 1 second to make the first hit on a 9" standard paper plate at 7 yards from concealment.
If you are doing sub-one second presentations from concealment (assuming typical CCW gear) you are either timing it wrong or need to be on the competitive circuit!
David Armstrong is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 01:12 PM   #10
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
I posted originally and the Colt Detective I carry half the time is in a pocket holster. I think it would be hard to get that one out incredibly quickly, unless hand was in pocket near the gun to begin with. I wear jeans often.

Any thoughts on getting your draw hung up using a pocket H.? I like using it, very convenient and super easy to conceal a colt snub.
gvf is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 01:28 PM   #11
PaulBk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2004
Location: Western Washington
Posts: 164
I can't help much with your Colt, as I am an auto guy through and through. I practice drawing from pocket concealment with my hand already gripping the handgun, as I will always have that hand in my pocket at the first hint of even a minimal threat. The beauty of pocket carry is almost instant presentation. It almost offsets the generally smaller caliber.

My P-32 comes out of my cargo pants pocket so fast and easy I don't even really use my shot timer much when shooting it. Seems too easy

-Paul
__________________
Hero's aren't born, they're cornered - According to Jim
PaulBk is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 04:22 PM   #12
Bailey Boat
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2006
Location: NC
Posts: 365
HVF..... I applaud your efforts as well as your progress. It seems the older generation is STILL taking the brunt of the most recent crime wave and it's good to see that you have recognized that fact and have made the decision to NOT be a victim......... Hats off to you my good man!!!!!!!
Bailey Boat is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 07:26 PM   #13
jhenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 1,813
gvf, I'd say you are doing quite well and have a good understanding of the value of practice. Do keep in mind you will fight as you have trained. The next thing to do IMO, is to become SAFE and comfortable with unlimbering that hogleg from concealment. Dryfire practice can be very valuable here. Put up a B27 target or something similar on the wall where you can practice. Unload the firearm. Unload it again. Place any live ammo in a whole nuther room. No joke. Then practice and pick up some speed at your own pace drawing and getting on target while wearing the clothes and gear you carry with. Good shooting.
__________________
"A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer
jhenry is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 10:53 PM   #14
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
GVF,

Sounds like you're on your way to establishing good skills. Keep up the good work. Like others have said, you need to practice drawing from your normal concealment.

Advice: Start slow without a cover garment. Reach back and find the gun's stocks and establish good grip. The gun should be positioned in a way that meets your hand naturally -- so you aren't bending your wrist or binding the gun against the holster when drawing. Draw the gun and bring it into position in a fluid motion. If you want to use a two-hand hold, your weak hand moves in front of your body as your strong hand moves to draw. When drawn, your weak hand 'receives' the gun as you push it into firing position. Stroke the trigger as soon as you present the gun with both hands. Repeat until this feels "natural".

When using a cover garment, you'll need to sweep it aside, raise it or otherwise move it out of the way. For jackets, I practice by sweeping it back with my palm back & up, fingers along my side, with a forcefull motion to push the jacket back and out. (Hint: A speedloader or similar weight in the pocket helps carry the jacket back and resists wind too). Then it's a matter of establishing the grip and drawing the gun. Start slow to establish the right motions and repeat until it feels natural.

For accuracy, try replacing perforated target centers with a paper plate (9" circle). If you consistently hit the plate at any speed, you're doing fine. A friend uses a felt marker to draw a 4" circle in the middle and that is his goal.

If you hit your target with a single shot in 1.5-2 seconds you'll be well prepared. If you can double-tap in under 2.5 seconds I'd say you're ready for almost anything.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old September 21, 2007, 11:15 PM   #15
Rob Pincus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Hotels
Posts: 3,677
gvf: Can you describe the drills your using and how you are integrating the timer?

I use a pocket holster with a J frame 642 regularly.. having the shrouded hammer practically eliminates the need to worry about getting hung up on the pocket.

If you can find a copy of S.W.A.T. Magazine on the newstand, I've got an article in the October issue discussing the "Balance Between Speed & Precision". Don't get hung up on objective standards or benchmarks... never stop trying to be more effiicient and faster. Keep your practice practical. Use the sights when you need to, which you figure out through frequent realistic practice.

-RJP
Rob Pincus is offline  
Old September 22, 2007, 03:44 AM   #16
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
Well, my time is my count, so not completely accurate, but I have asked friend with stop watch to time while I aim and count myself. It's quite close in time. I can't think of auto-timers working for such a short period, but I'd be willing to investigate.

The drills I have all have to do with quick aim, and having the computerized target go to various distances with no real pattern. That seems to help me trust a quick sight look and fire. I also sometimes fire at the smaller side-targets on my target pattern. Quickly and in no fixed pattern. I also sometimes put the target far out, then enter 8' or so and try to hit it as it speeds back. Don't know how the range feels about this so I keep it light on that one. I also seem to get best accuracy when I begin a quick site look as the gun is being raised towards bulls-eye, moving in a straight line upwards and in the center of target. Keeps me from "roaming around" the bulls-eye. Soon as sight moves up and hits bottom of bulls-eye, I fire. Seems to help accuracy.

For now that's it. Next will be drawing dry and then slowed down draw at the range with live ammo. Then go to actual speed. It does make me nervous practicing live fire draws in a crowded range. But usually that's what's available.

Thanks all - you've been a great help!
gvf is offline  
Old September 22, 2007, 05:08 AM   #17
PzGren
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2001
Posts: 917
Quote:
If you are doing sub-one second presentations from concealment (assuming typical CCW gear) you are either timing it wrong or need to be on the competitive circuit!
I shot competitions for many years. I am out of that loop but practice drawing regularly since several years with a KC timer and still go shooting once to twice a week.

To practice drawing, I am using RUready, it can be downloaded from the Brian Enos site. It is a great help and I am sure that if anybody practices with it for a year on pretty much a daily basis, he will go below one second. I am getting a little too old for real speed.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...11&hl=RU+Ready

Now, if you download and print one of the 1/3 scale targets, your living room will be large enough to practice.

....and practice makes perfect, doesn't it?

http://www.glockfaq.com/targets/competition/idpa.pdf
PzGren is offline  
Old September 22, 2007, 10:34 AM   #18
Rob Pincus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Hotels
Posts: 3,677
gvf,

Stop worrying about time... especially if you're not really timing yourself.

Be Efficient. Strive for the fastest consistent time that will allow you to get hits that are likely to significantly affect your threat's ability to present a lethal threat to you or those you are protecting.
Rob Pincus is offline  
Old October 1, 2007, 07:19 PM   #19
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
We've all heard the old mantra, "slow is smooth, smooth is fast." Well, it is true. It translates for most into "start slow, become smooth, speed up, become smooth again, speed up, become smooth again, speed up... repeat until you are fast."

A way to improve:
Shooting tight groups? Speed up.
Shooting off of an eight inch paper plate? Slow down.
Decrease the size of the plate as necessary.
Eventually with practice your tight groups are fast.
Then begin to worry about your time.
__________________
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
Erik is offline  
Old October 2, 2007, 01:12 PM   #20
bubba182
Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 26
Point Shooting VS Target Shooting

Anyone can learn to shoot tight groups when using the weapons sights, and it's a fact most guns shoot better than the operator. Point shooting though has the shooter bring his weapon up, point at the target without using the sights and fire off shots at the targets central mass. Some use paper plates some use 8x11 paper. My point is though you have to learn how to shoot quickly without taking time to aim using the sights. I haven't heard anyone distinguish between the two.
bubba182 is offline  
Old October 2, 2007, 01:41 PM   #21
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
There's no distinction.
__________________
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
Erik is offline  
Old October 3, 2007, 05:21 AM   #22
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Someone said that speed is overrated??? In reality the speed with which you put lead into your target translates into safety for yourself. Learning to be fast, consistent, and combat accurate is a definite bonus and should never be considered overrated.

For me I try to shoot as fast as I can consistently hit the 6 inch spread mark in center mass. If my groups are to tight I speed up or to big I slow down.

For the draw from holster just start slow making sure to get a proper grip. Practice and the speed and CONSISTENCY will come in time. From concealment it is harder but the key here is to use situational awareness to give yourself advance warning so that you can access the gun instantly. I use a fanny pack and can gain access real fast when surprised but that second or so will feel like an hour while behind in the reactionary curve. If I have done my job with awareness I can discretely access my gun and be ready to deploy it instantly.

Speed is a valuable commodity in a gunfight no matter what some folks might suggest.
threegun is offline  
Old October 3, 2007, 01:00 PM   #23
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
I shot competitions for many years.
So dod I, whihc is why I suggest that the timing is off somewhere. A sub-second draw from an open competition rig is fairly rare, doing it from concealement is almost unheard of.

Quote:
Any thoughts on getting your draw hung up using a pocket H.?
A trick from long ago is to put your thumb on the top of the hammer as you execute the draw. This keeps it from hanging up as you draw it.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old October 4, 2007, 11:09 AM   #24
bubba182
Member
 
Join Date: June 11, 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 26
No Distinction?

I beg to differ, in real gun fights sights are rarely used. Point shooting which is shooting without using the sights at close range is essential to defending yourself. There's an interesting article in the August Guns and Ammo about this very subject. When you draw your gun under the extremely high stress conditions of possibly being in a fight for your life you will react quickly. Many officers interviewed on this subject said they felt they didn't have time to aim. It goes on to say they did have the time in reality but didn't think they did. Under extreme stress we lose simple coordination and motor skills. The article says that 80% of police involved shootings happen inside 5 feet but that on average police miss with 85% of their rounds. Make up your own mind what type of defensive shooting you want to learn. There's an old book by Capts Fairbairn and Sykes that says that the pistol is used for primarily 2 things, sport or pleasure or combat. They say that while they are similar they were as different as chalk and cheese.
bubba182 is offline  
Old October 4, 2007, 01:26 PM   #25
Lurper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2006
Posts: 943
Quote:
I beg to differ, in real gun fights sights are rarely used
Care to cite the sources that support that? Many people can use the sights just as quickly as not. Cooper cites a FBI study showing that 80% of the agents interviewed remember using their sights during the gunfight. Of those, most hit with the first shot. The Force Science Institute recently published a similar study that showed the hit ratio for leo's is really closer to 60%. Also, just because someone doesn't remember seeing their sights or not is not proof of using or not using them. It is only proof of not remembering.
Lurper is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13623 seconds with 7 queries