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Old September 4, 2007, 09:10 PM   #1
MyXD40
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SD: what would you do

all these SD situations have my wondering..we all get a pretty good idea on what you should/could do in a situation that happens in the home..but what about when out in the streets?

Lets set up the situation..

You're at in the public, in a parking lot of a chain of department stores..
Now the BG isn't dealing with you, but with another person. Someone think of a life threating situation which COULD happen? robbery? car jacking (throwing someone out the car)..
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Old September 4, 2007, 10:32 PM   #2
BillCA
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XD,

Lots of things can happen in a parking lot. It doesn't have to be a mall or department store either, it can be your local Kroger's or Safeway.

What kinds of things have occurred in store parking lots? Short answer - almost anything.
Shootings
Beatings
Stabbings
Rape
Car-Jacking
Armed Robbery
Strong-arm Robbery
Assault / Battery
Theft (both petty and grand theft)
Sexual Assaults
Kidnapping
Murder
Mayhem
Dog attacks

So what's your point?
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Old September 5, 2007, 07:37 AM   #3
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If you are a police officer, go over and stop the attack. If you are not, call a police officer. There are lots of gun-haters out there that would LOVE for you to shoot someone just so they can string you up. Think about that before you 'pull out yo gat an blas da fool'. You could go over and ask him to stop yourself, but then he might shoot you. Then where would you be? You guessed it...DEAD!
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Old September 5, 2007, 07:39 AM   #4
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Also, robberies and car jackings are usually not life threatening. Murder, however, can be.
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Old September 5, 2007, 07:47 AM   #5
Tanzer
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deep Breath, pause........ Call 911
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Old September 5, 2007, 05:21 PM   #6
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Yeah, . . . there is no obligation to go over and stick your nose in someone else's business, . . . but some of us probably would not sleep well knowing that we had the means, the opportunity, and the need to help someone: and passed.

I, for one, . . . believe in being the good Samaritan if the opportunity arises. To do otherwise, . . . I may have to look in the mirror the rest of my life and see Jimmy Carter looking back.

May God bless,
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Old September 5, 2007, 05:38 PM   #7
MyXD40
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Ok lets see then. You're comming out of the store, to find two people arguing in the parking lot. A woman and a man.

Man starts to beat the woman, straight punches to her face. What would you do?

I remember seeing this 10 years ago (or so) back when i was just a young buck..thought this would be a good example, and see how others would handle seeing this type of situation.
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Old September 5, 2007, 05:52 PM   #8
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You yell "Hey stop. I'm calling the cops!!!" If he comes over and starts punching you in the face, if you are just itching to shoot someone, shoot him. And get a gooooood lawyer.
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Old September 5, 2007, 06:43 PM   #9
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^ I'm not asking what I should yell..

I'm asking YOU. what would YOU yell/do?
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Old September 5, 2007, 06:52 PM   #10
Tanzer
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Quote:
but some of us probably would not sleep well knowing that we had the means, the opportunity, and the need to help someone: and passed
.
And:
Quote:
Now the BG isn't dealing with you, but with another person. Someone think of a life threating situation which COULD happen? robbery? car jacking (throwing someone out the car)..
suddenly switches to;
Quote:
Man starts to beat the woman, straight punches to her face
Oh for cryin' out loud. Suddenly, calling 911 is only for thumb-sucking wimps who would stand there while Snydley Whiplash ties Sweet Poly Purebred to the railroad tracks. I guess I'll go shopping on E-bay to find a used telephone booth so I can put my cape on.

The first thing you do is call 911, and let the perp know you did. If he's pouring gasoline on her, that's a different story. I've brandished my gun to protect my family once and only once, to buy time to get in the car. Once I did, I took off over a planter bed, taking a shrub with me, then waited for the sheriff's office that my wife had already called. I was detained for half an hour while my credentials were checked, but that night I was able to go home and get drunk, not spend the night in a cell for being overzealous.
Guess what? It worked!
Taking action means taking proper, appropriate and responsible action, not vigilante, LEO wannabe justice.
Reminds me of the time before I carried - 20 years ago - when I saw a guy dragging a girl by the hair. As a would-be hero, I went to help her, only to run into two big biker types with their arms folded, one of whom said; "GO".
As I did, the girl kicked the guy holding her and said; "LET GO!" She then went to the saddlebag of a Harley and produced a screwdriver - and came at ME with it! More embarrasing than running away, I had to jump on my Honda crotch-rocket. I could vaguely hear them laughing as that sewing machine started up.
Point is, the OP was a vague situation. Lethal force is called for when a responsible citizen deduces it to be so. It is not to be ruled out, nor is it a first course of action. Pull a gun, and you da*n well be ready to use it. Otherwise, you add to the problem. If you pull a gun before you call 911 you deserve what you get. Take a course or two.
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Old September 5, 2007, 06:58 PM   #11
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Call the cops and yell at them that that's what I'm doing. I'm aware of all too many instances of where one domestic partner beating on the other was their form of foreplay. I'm not going to risk my life and/or freedom just to find out that this is just normal behavior for those involved. Additionally, it's not unknown for the "victim" in this sort of situation to turn on her "rescuer" when her partner gets on the losing end of a confrontation.
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Old September 5, 2007, 07:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Also, robberies and car jackings are usually not life threatening. Murder, however, can be.
Robberies and Car Jackings can easily lead to loss of life; you can never tell what a criminal is capable of. I agree with you that murder is life threatening.
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Old September 5, 2007, 07:43 PM   #13
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^Yeah if you do something stupid like pull a gun while the bg has one in your face. Most robbers/carjackers only want your money or car.

Just send up the bat signal and wait for help
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Old September 5, 2007, 08:20 PM   #14
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Additionally, it's not unknown for the "victim" in this sort of situation to turn on her "rescuer" when her partner gets on the losing end of a confrontation.
Don H is right on this point. So be careful be for you go charging into a situation on your white horse. For me to pull a trigger on someone they would have to be threatening a loved one.
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Old September 5, 2007, 09:38 PM   #15
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I, for one, . . . believe in being the good Samaritan if the opportunity arises. To do otherwise, . . . I may have to look in the mirror the rest of my life and see Jimmy Carter looking back.
That figgen funny Stuff !!!! and soooo true about the peanut farmer.

If it's a fist fight and it doesn't appear to be life threatening, I'm not going to intervene. LEt them settle their problem the old fashioned manly way, more power to em. IF some guy just b*tch slaps his girl, I'm stating out of it. That's her stupidity for being with the creep.

I will intervene if:
**some guy is beatin the crap out of his old lady and won't let up.

** someone gets the better of the other person then doesn't let up on them.

** someone produces a deadly (screwdriver can count depending on their attitude) weapon.

** someone appears to be carjacked, abducted or kidnapped.

** the bottom line is, if someone is in immenent danger of serious bodily injury or death, I am intervening.

Intervening would start with a call to 911, then proceed as non-lethaly as I feel I can without putting myself or others in more danger. It might require an immediate pull and shoot, it might require a yelling to stop, it might require a pistol butt to the back of the head. It depends on a ton of factors that will be different in every situation.

Notice I never said here is what everyone should do, I said this is where I have decided will be my position on intervening.

It is also very important to know your state laws, although it doesn't really dictate my positions on intervening.
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Old September 6, 2007, 02:12 AM   #16
teejhot.40cal
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Call 911 or better have someone else do it so you can watch. My girlfriend is almost always with me and she can get to cell phone faster anyways. I would draw but keep the gun behind my leg or inside my jacket. This way my weapon is out of sight but drawn just in case I need it in a hurry. Best case scenario, I get a good description, cops arrive and no one gets hurt. Worse case scenario, death becomes imminent and I shoot to stop the action. One thing is for certain, I wouldn't make myself know until I absolutley have to stop the action before someone is killed or seriously injured.
Quote:
^ I'm not asking what I should yell..

I'm asking YOU. what would YOU yell/do?
I always yell "STOP". I try to yell when I am practicing so that I am yelling stop a split second b4 I pull my trigger.
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Old September 6, 2007, 02:18 AM   #17
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If it doesn't involve me and mine and I can't identify the victim as an LEO then the most I will do is call 911 and provide for the safety of my family and I.

Some of you may think that's the coward's way, I think it's the smart way. I am an LEO and On-Duty I have a job to do. Off-Duty I carry for self protection of me and my family. Also, I took an oath to my family and my Creator long before I took my oath as an LEO. Part of my oath to my family is to provide and care for them. I can't very well do that if I'm found guilty of a crime and "rotting in jail" or financially destitute.

There's an old saying, "You play, you pay." I just want to make sure I can afford the price.

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Old September 6, 2007, 06:18 AM   #18
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I think there is a moral imperative to act. In my mind that came with the CCW permit. It's a sort of social contract whereby society let's me carry a deadly weapon and accepts the risk of an accident, I in turn agree to use that weapon for the good of society if the need arises.

I understand those who would only use their gun to protect them and theirs, and think that is a perfectly defensible position to take.

It's interesting that one of the local sherrifs in southern Ohio expressed support of the new CCW using an argument along the lines of having a bunch of de-facto deputies for free was a good thing. The LE community in our larger cities do not agree.

This is definitely one of those areas where a difference of opinion and attitude is understandible.
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Old September 6, 2007, 06:35 AM   #19
mattro
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Most LE communities want assault rifles outlawed from private ownership. (ie AR15, M1A, FAL, SKS, AK47, etc...).

Every time I see a POS sheriff get in front of the camera and talk about how much safer our streets would be without these types of assault rifles available, I want to puke.:barf:
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Old September 6, 2007, 08:19 AM   #20
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Quote:
Robberies and Car Jackings can easily lead to loss of life; you can never tell what a criminal is capable of. I agree with you that murder is life threatening.
OK, this keeps coming up, and it's important. Robberies and car jackings CAN lead to a loss of life, but RARELY do. Rarely in this case means almost every day, but still only a very small percentage of all the robberies committed. As a matter of fact, we don't even know how small a percentage, because a great many muggings aren't even reported. We've also seen the TV clip of some psycho robbing a liquor store and just shooting the clerk. What you don't see on the TV news are the hundreds of robberies where it's over in 10 seconds, and no one gets hurt. If the robber is armed, it's pretty good odds that the victim isn't getting hurt. If it's a stong arm robbery, the victim is typically going to get roughed up, but not really hurt. Same with car jackings.

Understand that, from a self defense standpoint, in a typical robbery, you are more likely survive if you give up your money and either let the robber go, or get away on your own. There are atypical robberies where that's not the case, but they are atypical. If you approach every life threatening situation planning to react to it in a way that appropriate for only the rarest situations, you are going to die or kill someone else sooner than if you play the odds.

Saying that every robbery should be ended with lethal force would be like saying that doctors should automatically amputate every limb with a rash or infection. You you proposing a risky and life alterning solution to a problem that will likely resolve itself with a little bit of care.

Quote:
I think there is a moral imperative to act. In my mind that came with the CCW permit. It's a sort of social contract whereby society let's me carry a deadly weapon and accepts the risk of an accident, I in turn agree to use that weapon for the good of society if the need arises.
No. The law, which is society acting collectively through is legislative body and courts, imposes no duty on private citizens to assist anyone (with the usual exception of a police officer, at their request), and generally holds private individuals to a higher standard for the use of force than police. Even the State that give crime victims civil and criminal immunity for self defense have done so not to encourage citizens to shoot it out with bad guys, but to prevent the greater social evil of allowing criminals to profit from their victims in court, or for victims to be held criminally liable for an act that a criminal coerced them into.

Quote:
Also, I took an oath to my family and my Creator long before I took my oath as an LEO. Part of my oath to my family is to provide and care for them. I can't very well do that if I'm found guilty of a crime and "rotting in jail" or financially destitute.
+1
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Old September 6, 2007, 08:27 AM   #21
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Good points newer guy, I would disagree with the following though:
Quote:
holds private individuals to a higher standard for the use of force than police.
That is not true. Non police are held to a reasonable man standard while police officers are held to a professional standard. What the average citizen can do would oft times put a cop in jail.
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Old September 6, 2007, 08:38 AM   #22
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Quote:
newerguy: Robberies and car jackings CAN lead to a loss of life, but RARELY do.
Quote:
newerguy: If the robber is armed, it's pretty good odds that the victim isn't getting hurt. If it's a stong arm robbery, the victim is typically going to get roughed up, but not really hurt. Same with car jackings.
Quote:
newerguy: you are more likely survive if you give up your money and either let the robber go, or get away on your own.
Quote:
you are going to die or kill someone else sooner than if you play the odds.
If you want to play these odds, that is your choice. I choose not to put someone's life in the hands of 'odds'.


Quote:
newerguy: Saying that every robbery should be ended with lethal force would be like saying that doctors should automatically amputate every limb with a rash or infection.
I didn't here anyway say every robbery should end in lethal force. Also, Docs don't amputate first because they can monitor most problems with different types of treatment without risk of immenent loss of life or limb. We don't have that luxury with a lethal encounter. If a doc sees immenent loss of limb or life, they will quickly amputate. So will I.


Quote:
No. The law, which is society acting collectively through is legislative body and courts, imposes no duty on private citizens to assist anyone
Your right, the law puts no burden on me to help. I put that burden on myself. If someone doesn't have that burden, they should not intervene.

Cops are held to a higher standard than citizens btw.
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Old September 6, 2007, 08:50 AM   #23
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If you're going to intervene, you had best be overwhelmingly sure of the circumstances -- since you are betting your freedom, your family's happiness, and everything you own on being right at the moment you put your firearm into the equation.

Personally, I'm not taking that gamble unless I am overwhelmingly sure of who the players are, who's the good guy, who's the bad guy, and what provoked the whole thing. A scene that I just stumbled on, where I don't know either one of the participants, simply cannot meet that standard.

I'll retreat to my car, call the cops, and keep an eye on the situation until the cops arrive. If anyone leaves, I'll note the license plate and the direction of travel.

For those saying, "moral imperative to act" -- calling the cops IS acting. It's just not quite as macho as rushing in.

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Old September 6, 2007, 08:51 AM   #24
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Quote:
That is not true. Non police are held to a reasonable man standard while police officers are held to a professional standard. What the average citizen can do would oft times put a cop in jail.
Quote:
Cops are held to a higher standard than citizens btw.
That is not the case in New York. Police officers have significantly greater legal justification in using deadly physical force than a private person under most circumstances, not the least of which being no duty to retreat, and an expanded ability to used deadly force to make an arrest or prevent an escape. There is no "professional standard" or standard higher than reasonable in Article 35 of the NYS Penal Law, and I have not seen a mention of anything but "reasonable" being used in civil case law.
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Old September 6, 2007, 08:54 AM   #25
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That is not the case in New York. Police officers have significantly greater legal justification in using deadly physical force than a private person under most circumstances, not the least of which being no duty to retreat, and an expanded ability to used deadly force to make an arrest or prevent an escape. There is no "professional standard" or standard higher than reasonable in Article 35 of the NYS Penal Law, and I have not seen a mention of anything but "reasonable" being used in civil case law.
It's not the case in most places. As you say, police officers have far greater authority and discretion in the use of all levels of force than civilians. Civilians are restricted to the use of force necessary to match that force used against them. Officers are authorized to use overwhelming force against a suspect.

And the standard they are held to is basically 1) was the act within policy and 2) was the act reasonable under the circumstances. That's why police may walk away from a bad shoot that would put a civilian in prison.
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