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Old September 4, 2007, 02:08 AM   #1
Doggieman
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'New Bohemians' member Shot & Killed through door

Weird:

Sep 3, 11:34 PM EDT
Member of New Bohemians Fatally Shot

DALLAS (AP) -- Jeffrey Carter Albrecht, a keyboard player for the band Edie Brickell & New Bohemians, was shot to death early Monday while trying to kick in the door of his girlfriend's neighbor, police said.

The neighbor believed a burglar was trying to break in and fired a shot through the door around 4 a.m., Dallas police spokesman Sgt. Gil Cerda said.

Albrecht, 34, died at the scene. It was not clear why Albrecht went to the house and the case is under investigation. No arrests have been made.

"He was at his girlfriend's house last night," said Danny Balis, Albrecht's roommate. "He left the house and went next door and - for whatever reason, which we don't know - he knocked on the neighbor's door. And from what I understand, he was persistent. I don't know if there was a verbal exchange, but the person panicked and fired a shot through the door."

The death of Albrecht, who also played keyboard and guitar and sang in the Dallas rock band Sorta with Balis, stunned friends and those who knew him in the North Texas music community.

"He is not a violent person," said Carrie Garcia, Sorta's manager. "He is cool as a cucumber, shy, always wanted to make a joke in a situation that may be a little tense."

Albrecht, who went by his middle name, had been with the New Bohemians since 1999, according to the band's Web site. Albrecht played several times with Brickell's husband, Paul Simon, Garcia said. He also played with Texas musician Charlie Sexton, a renowned guitarist.

Albrecht was working on a solo album that Balis called "the best thing he has ever done."

"He was the best musician I've ever played with - no question," Balis said. "He could play anything. It's a shame not enough people outside of Dallas heard him."

-----------------------

So, the neighbor fired THROUGH the door. Wonder if that's going to land him in hot water. He obviously has not been reading these boards, or he would have let the door get kicked in FIRST, THEN fired. Discuss.
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Old September 4, 2007, 02:36 AM   #2
BobR
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Quote:
DALLAS —

Jeffrey Carter Albrecht, a keyboard player for the band Edie Brickell & New Bohemians, was shot to death early Monday while trying to kick in the door of his girlfriend's neighbor, police said.

The neighbor, who was not immediately identified, was asleep in bed when he woke up around 4 a.m. to his wife screaming that someone was breaking into the house, according to a police report. The neighbor yelled through the door for Albrecht to leave and then fired his handgun through the door.

Albrecht was shot in the head and died at the scene, police said.

The neighbor believed a burglar was trying to break in and fired a shot through the door around 4 a.m., Dallas police spokesman Sgt. Gil Cerda said. The case is under investigation and no arrests have been made.

News reports cited police saying Albrecht beat up his girlfriend and then tried to kick down the neighbor's door in a drunken rage. The couple had no history of domestic violence, but the girlfriend had bruises on her face, police said. She did not suffer serious injury.

Albrecht apparently struck his girlfriend in the face several times and hit her in the back once she fell. She later managed to lock him out of the house, according to the reports.

"He was at his girlfriend's house last night," said Danny Balis, Albrecht's roommate. "He left the house and went next door and — for whatever reason, which we don't know — he knocked on the neighbor's door. And from what I understand, he was persistent. I don't know if there was a verbal exchange, but the person panicked and fired a shot through the door."

The death of Albrecht, who also played keyboard and guitar and sang in the Dallas rock band Sorta with Balis, stunned friends and those who knew him in the North Texas music community.

"He is not a violent person," said Carrie Garcia, Sorta's manager. "He is cool as a cucumber, shy, always wanted to make a joke in a situation that may be a little tense."

Albrecht, who went by his middle name, had been with the New Bohemians since 1999, according to the band's Web site. Albrecht played several times with Brickell's husband, Paul Simon, Garcia said. He also played with Texas musician Charlie Sexton, a renowned guitarist.

Albrecht was working on a solo album that Balis called "the best thing he has ever done."

"He was the best musician I've ever played with — no question," Balis said. "He could play anything. It's a shame not enough people outside of Dallas heard him."
A little bit of difference in the two accounts...see the bold.

Then there is the Texas Penal Code and the use of deadly force. The bold is mine.

Quote:
§ 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person
is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.31;
(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation
would not have retreated; and
(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect himself against the other's use or
attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual
assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
(b) The requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not
apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time
of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the
habitation of the actor.


Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1983, 68th Leg., p. 5316, ch. 977, § 5, eff.
Sept. 1, 1983; Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept.
1, 1994; Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 235, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
Shooting through a door is never a good idea, but this was in Texas, and their laws for use of deadly force (especially at night) are a little more liberal than most states.

I guess it depends on the DA and the shooters lawyer as to what happens now.

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Old September 4, 2007, 08:58 AM   #3
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Just look at the tone of the article. You see, if you kill A Celebrity, it doesn't matter if The Celebrity was raping your child. All that matter is that you killed A Celebrity. You will be vilified by the press, while the Former Celebrity will be remembered fondly and shown in bio-retrospectives on endless news segments.
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Old September 4, 2007, 09:24 AM   #4
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NC law is similar on the approved use of deadly force to prevent entry to the home. I can't say I would have shot through the door necessarily, but I wasn't there either. I think if I were to shoot through the door I would aim a little lower than head height though. Less chance of the bullet hitting innocent bystanders, maybe. More chance of hitting the target since the torso is larger than the head.

Of course there is always the possibility that he was in a crouch on the other side of the door, especially if he was trying to break it down with his shoulder.

OK that's enough Monday Morning Quarterbacking (on Tuesday) for me. I'm interested to see how this one progresses.
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Old September 4, 2007, 10:08 AM   #5
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Its sad that innocent civilians must wait until the door is breeched to act. Once the door is breeched our risk level goes way up and that is just not right.
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Old September 4, 2007, 10:44 AM   #6
Doggieman
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bad shooting

Quote:
(b) The requirement imposed by Subsection (a)(2) does not
apply to an actor who uses force against a person who is at the time
of the use of force committing an offense of unlawful entry in the
habitation of the actor.
The question here is, was the keyboardist guy "committing an offense of unlawful entry" in this situation? If it turns out that the "offense of unlawful entry" doesn't take place until you've actually ENTERED, then there's a problem. Or if he was just beating at the door out of frustration.. I know I've slammed my fist into doors without necessarily trying to enter through them.

Sounds like they're not going to press charges, especially if the girlfriend had been beaten up. However, I would suggest it's NEVER wise to shoot through exterior doors. You don't know what that bullet is going to do. Hell it could hit people in their yards, or go through the front window of the neighbor across the street, you never know.

I would have no qualms about shooting someone who's just entered the house, and I personally feel that once you've broken into somebody's house you have forfeited your right to live while you're inside, but this was very irresponsible IMHO.
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Old September 4, 2007, 10:58 AM   #7
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Shooting and killing something you can't see is stupid and irresponsible. What sort of mindset does it take to shoot through a locked door? Why would a person not vacate the room and call 911? Sure, if the guy comes through the door all bets are off, but come on guys, shooting blind just because someone is ranting?
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Old September 4, 2007, 12:46 PM   #8
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Most modern door's are lacking in a lot of quality. I installed a peep hole on the door my 3 year old home and guess what - it's "stuffins" is nothing more than packing peanut pieces (little bb's actually). If you have a drunken - rage filled guy kicking and damaging your door at 4am & spewing hate and insults, all while your wife screaming in terror next to you... you get the idea.
There's nothing in article that doesn't indicate that the perp wasn't only just moments from getting is arm through a hole to unlock the door. How long do you wait?? You can only yell "I've called the police!" and "I have a gun!" so many times. Time will only run out for either you or them.

What's that phrase? - "Rather judged by 12 than carried by 6"
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Old September 4, 2007, 02:07 PM   #9
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Tactically what's the difference between shooting someone 6" outside a locked door and 6" inside a broken door? Tactically you're talking about a foot, legally you're talking about a whole order of magnitude. If you are willing to be judged by 12, then you better act like a reasonable person or they will hang you.
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Old September 4, 2007, 04:08 PM   #10
Doggieman
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Well that's true, you can't tell what exactly happened in this situation, but I think GENERALLY the problem I have with shooting through an exterior door is:

1) you are intentionally firing a projectile out of the confines of your home into the neighborhood. Yes, there's always a chance that if you shoot at somebody IN your house the bullet can go through a wall into the neighborhood. But here you're intending to potentially harm innocents.

2) you are firing through a wooden medium, which can make the bullet do weird, unforeseen things. This means that even if you're shooting at the guy's COM, or trying to scare him, the bullet may ricochet and hit him in the head, or hit the person down the street, or if it's a strong solid-core door it make come back and hit you.

3) you're shooting at someone you haven't seen. Especially when you've just awakened, the likelihood that you're making a big mistake is much higher. You might be so muddied that you don't hear that it's your son who's being chased by a gang and he's frantically kicking at the door to wake you up, or whatever.

Like I said I have a feeling they won't press charges here... but just barely.
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Old September 4, 2007, 07:01 PM   #11
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It will go to a grand jury, but he will be exonerated! The guy was drunk and had previously assaulted his girlfriend. She fled and he thought she was next door. He went there and started banging and kicking on the door. Now it's 4am and the wife wakes her husband telling him someone is breaking into the house. He tells her to call 911 while he gets his handgun. Adrenalin is running and he goes to the door and tells the guy to stop and go away. The guy continues to pound and kick on the door. He announces that he has a gun, yet the drunk continues to break in. So he shoots one round at the top of the door to scare the guy off, but it hit him in the head and he died at the scene. Now this is an elderly couple that were terrified, so IMO they did the right thing under the circumstances. What should they have done? Open the door, or wait until he gained entry? I would have done the same given the scenario, except I would have shot more than once.
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Old September 4, 2007, 07:20 PM   #12
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I guess the shooter will walk and it's probably for the best. myself I would never shoot until I see a weapon of any sort and then try for a disabling shot if possible. good argument for a housedog there or pepper spray (or both). but easy for mwe to say since I've had some training. ordinary joe is likely to over-react. or not at all.
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Old September 4, 2007, 07:41 PM   #13
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"Trying to kick in" someone's door at 4AM in TX is unwise.

BTW, the section of TX penal code quoted is obsolete as of 1 September 2007. The so called "Castle Doctrine" went into effect on that date. There is no longer any duty to retreat, even outside the home (as long as you're where you have a right to be and didn't "start" the situation), and if the shooter's use of deadly force is justified under the new law, there can't be a civil suit against him.
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Old September 4, 2007, 08:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
BTW, the section of TX penal code quoted is obsolete as of 1 September 2007. The so called "Castle Doctrine" went into effect on that date. There is no longer any duty to retreat, even outside the home (as long as you're where you have a right to be and didn't "start" the situation), and if the shooter's use of deadly force is justified under the new law, there can't be a civil suit against him.
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Old September 4, 2007, 09:14 PM   #15
Justme
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Quote:
It will go to a grand jury, but he will be exonerated
Only if the grand jury finds that a "reasonable" man would have felt his life or limb was in danger in that situation. Not an issue 6" inside your front door, big issue if you are inside your apartment and the guy you shot was outside.
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Old September 4, 2007, 09:45 PM   #16
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Why do you think it will make it to a grand jury? Was the shooter even arrested?
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Old September 4, 2007, 10:07 PM   #17
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Read the text of the bill here: http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodo...l/SB00378E.HTM
Pay particular attention to Section 2(a)(1)(A).

unlawfully and with force entered, or was
attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied
habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

I am thinking that under the law that went into effect Sept. 1, 2007, the shooting was totally justified.

Bottom line: You damn well better think twice before kicking in someone's door in Texas.

Stupidity or bad judgment can get you killed. In a car, in a bar, crossing the street or railroad tracks, kicking in a door in Texas or any one of hundreds of other situations. No one should be held responsible for someone else's stupidity or bad judgment.
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Old September 4, 2007, 10:17 PM   #18
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I don't have to look someone in the eye, or allow him six inches into my home, in order to know that he's trying to kick my door in and do me and my family harm. I mean, seriously, come on people.
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Old September 4, 2007, 10:35 PM   #19
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Well, we will never know what Jeffrey Carter Albrecht, would have done, had he gotten the door open, will we? It's not what you "know" in a situation like this, it's what you "do".

I just could not shoot through a closed door, not knowing where that round was going. In this case it matters not what madman is on the other side. What matters is the possibility of an innocent bystander. What if another neighbor had come along at that instant and was trying to get him to calm down? That would be a different story altogether.
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Old September 4, 2007, 11:11 PM   #20
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To me shooting through a door is very risky. The possibility of the round striking something unintended is too great.

Grab my Beretta or 870. Call 911 if he manages to breach the door before the police come then I would shoot. Or there is the possibility that he's turned into a chew toy by my 2 pittbulls if the door is breached.

I'm not judging this guy he did what he had to do, awakened at 4am by a guy trying to kick your door in. I wouldn't shoot through the door but everyone has to make their own decisions.
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Old September 4, 2007, 11:32 PM   #21
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I would bet that the shooter won't be charged and that he was not that proficient with firearms. Having a higher level of proficiency and confidence gives you more control. The guy was probably scared and just wanted to scare Albecht away.
I have to agree that firing through the door in most cases is not a wise course of action. I could've done the same thing, but chose not to. I believe that my level of skill and confidence helped me maintain control over the situation. Here is the original post:


http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...highlight=kick
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Old September 5, 2007, 05:08 AM   #22
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Wasn't it in Alabama where that guy shot a kid on halloween, because the kid went to the wrong house for a party? Obviously this is not the same situation. However, every time someone acts irresponsibly with a firearm all of us go under more scrutiny, I'd just as soon people didn't give the anti-gun crowd more ammunition.

In this case we will never know "intent", and "intent" is the key factor, usually legally but definitely morally. I suspect that the shooter's intent was to stop the threat, not kill a guy. In the situation he felt his best option for stopping the threat was to shoot through the door. With more training he might have thought differently.

I wish there were more classes out there where gun owners could "play act" different scenarios. Doing so should help people be calmer and act with more confidence in dangerous situations. Most companies have such classes for harrassment and such, and by all accounts such play acting does work as an instruction method.
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Old September 5, 2007, 06:05 AM   #23
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Quote:
BTW, the section of TX penal code quoted is obsolete as of 1 September 2007. The so called "Castle Doctrine" went into effect on that date. There is no longer any duty to retreat, even outside the home (as long as you're where you have a right to be and didn't "start" the situation), and if the shooter's use of deadly force is justified under the new law, there can't be a civil suit against him.
That's a beautiful thing. We learned about the new laws last week in my CHL class. I also learned that here in the great state of Texas, once it becomes night you can legally shoot someone for petty theft of your property. The laws harken back to the days of the frontier and cattle rustling/horse theivery. Doesn't mean you should of course, just interesting that in the eyes of the law you can.
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Old September 5, 2007, 06:13 AM   #24
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I would never recommend shooting through a door. It breaks the 'know what you are killing' rule I learned as a child in the hunting world and later on in the self-defense world. However, if this guy were tried and I don't think I could convict him of wrong doing, considering the available information about what happened.
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Old September 5, 2007, 06:56 AM   #25
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Sounds like a lot of lawyers, judges & experts. Instead of debating the merits of the victims case and whether or not the homeowner should or should not be exonerated, why don't you ask why he was doing what he was in the first place? Doesn't seem like he was there for a friendly visit or to borrow a cup of sugar. How many of you have lived in a place where you might be faced with a life or death decision at that time of the morning under that circumstance? "No arrests have been made at this time" seems to say a great deal. Sounds to me like he should have stuck to playing guitar. Don't invade another's space without first considering the consequences. At my place that space starts at my property line, not 12" on the other side of my doors.
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