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Old August 30, 2007, 11:05 PM   #126
easyG
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I dunno how wifey would like it if we had a bunch of paintballs around our house..
Good point.
Maybe water-pistols?
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Old August 30, 2007, 11:16 PM   #127
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I like the idea of running from the house screaming like a little girl, leaving SWMBO to take care of the problem:

"Why you come into my house numbnuts? You not behave nicely! Say sorry! NO! Say sorry from heart, japanese way, disgusting kingpin of crime!(***yes! she uses that word all the time...KINGPIN!,,,KINGPIN!!!!lol****) I keel you with jumping kick in secret place! Eyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"

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Old August 30, 2007, 11:20 PM   #128
DonR101395
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Quote:
I like the idea of running from the house screaming like a little girl, leaving SWMBO to take care of the problem:

"Why you come into my house numbnuts? You not behave nicely! Say sorry! NO! Say sorry from heart, japanese way, disgusting kingpin of crime!(***yes! she uses that word all the time...KINGPIN!,,,KINGPIN!!!!lol****) I keel you with jumping kick in secret place! Eyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"

dude,
You kill me. Always good for a laugh.
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Old August 30, 2007, 11:30 PM   #129
Wildalaska
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Hey it's true! Go asks vets of the Pacific...these folks have no fear! She came after me with a ruler one day cuz I scomphed up her Pringles! A burglar has no chance!

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Old August 31, 2007, 03:18 AM   #130
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Miranda Warning and Citizen's Arrest Don't Mix!

A previous poster says, "Technically, you could make a citizen's arrest (you have memorized "Miranda" haven't you?) or you can hold him for the police".

Miranda Warnings come into play ONLY IF you are acting under the "color of authority" as a police officer or other representative of the government.
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Old August 31, 2007, 03:42 AM   #131
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Good point Captain38!

Technically Miranda applies only for LEO's if they are going to question the suspect. I can transport without Miranda, and anything you say to me I can "use". I just can't "initiate" the conversation.
In fact, I say something like, "Get in, sit down and be quiet."

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Old August 31, 2007, 05:44 AM   #132
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I have often wondered about the so-called "citizen's arrest", you hear about it on TV and when macho types are discussing what they'd do in certain situations, but is what is the truth? Holding someone, no matter the provocation, seems dangerously close to kidnapping to me, at least from a legal standpoint.

BTW, if a guy picks up a 60" plasma TV by himself both his hands are full, that's my signal to escape, because the last thing in the world I want to do is get into any confrontation with a guy who can walk around holding a 60" TV.
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Old August 31, 2007, 07:13 AM   #133
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That's not what this thread is about....
Of course anyone would have a huge disadvantage ENTERING a building occupied by a hostile enemy.
See, though that is the whole point. Stop thinking of your house as a house and think of it as a collection of rooms. BG occupies one room you occupy the other. If there's gonna be a gunfight don't you want it to be in your occupied territory and not his?

Option 1:
Burglar in living room, he occupies it, possibly lying in wait for me to stick my head around the corner.
Option 2:
Me in bedroom doorway, facing down the hall waiting for him to stick his head around the corner.

I'll take option 2..........

Quote:
I like the idea of running from the house screaming like a little girl, leaving SWMBO to take care of the problem:
Especially when she's probably the only one who knows where your Seecamp is.
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Old August 31, 2007, 07:13 AM   #134
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As a closing thought, I already have my Recommendation Letters, two police explorer positions under my belt, countless ride-alongs and many LEO (low and high on the ladder) as close friends. I know what I'm getting into, and what the job requires.

And yes, it's only the interenet. So none of you can judge me (good or bad) based on my replies on topics.
When they ask for aliases or nicknames on the application, remember to put this screenname down. Once they google it, they'll be the judge of your replies.
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Old August 31, 2007, 07:14 AM   #135
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I have often wondered about the so-called "citizen's arrest", you hear about it on TV and when macho types are discussing what they'd do in certain situations, but is what is the truth? Holding someone, no matter the provocation, seems dangerously close to kidnapping to me, at least from a legal standpoint.
Not sure about other jurisdictions, but here in NC if the guy is not presenting a threat to your life or a threat of serious bodily harm and you use a weapon to detain him against his will it will be you going to the pokey. No such "citizen's arrest" provisions here.
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Old August 31, 2007, 07:25 AM   #136
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Tying all this back to the OP, I think what most of us on the "don't go charging in side" are saying is protect your kids, your wife, and yourself and don't worry about apprehending the badguy or protecting your stuff. I have a lot of stuff too, but only three things in my house are irreplaceable. I'll stand between them and the devil himself if need be, but if the devil wants my plasma TV he can have it.
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Old August 31, 2007, 07:38 AM   #137
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Thanks so much for bringing this back on target. I think it's pretty clear that from a legal standpoint, the BG gets to fly should he decide to grow wings on his feet. In my experience with "at risk" (yeah-politically correct term) teenagers (15-17) from "underprivileged neighborhoods". Oh heck, young criminals who got one last chance before going to the training school - every move is FAST. I've never seen a slow attack (well, once).
Anyhow, as I see it, If they decide to bolt they won't even hear you yell "STOP". They will go over things or through them. They will run through briars, brambles and places where a chipmunk would get caught up. That is *IF* they decide to take flight. *IF* they do not, their move at you will be just as fast. If for any unforseen reason you *are* holding them (why? doesn't matter, this is IF) keep it straight and simple - NO DIALOGUE- Others have stated "palms up" I think that's a good idea.
I was trained in how to restrain them. NO WAY, not in a home situation. Wife is on the phone with 911 while guarding kids (with her own gun) in a safe room IN the house. I haven't deduced whether he's got a buddy, and I'm not going to trust him anyway. IF IF IF I was to need to hold him. (Dog #1 will usually listen and go to momma, but never seen him in such a situation. He may be biting his face. That would complicate things. Dog #2 will be sniffing his crack.
In my primary home, cops should be no more than 5 mins away - even that's a stretch. If I'm in Maine, a LOT longer. Living aboard our boat in summer, he'd have a great time getting out of the marina. About a quarter of the boats on my dock are owned by retired LEO's. Press one button on the VHF (we have a system) and anyone at the marina with their radio on (most are) hears your conversation. We posted a sign warning of this, but the marina made us take it down. He'd have about ten dogs after him, and spotlights everywhere. These boats are worth three times as much as most homes (hear that myXD?), but even with all this, I don't think a single one of us would actually try to hold him. It would be more like a spotlight exhibition, and the local cops will be there really fast. I hope it never happens, but it would be interesting to see the cops pull him out of the drink.
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Old August 31, 2007, 07:48 AM   #138
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/\ I can hear it now; "That was MY spotlight" "Quiet small town boy, it was mine"..... Blah, Blah, Yackety Schmackety......
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Old August 31, 2007, 08:41 AM   #139
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Thanks guys. I don't try to be an ass but sometimes I just get a lil into these internet fourms!

And I guess just the nature of how I'm trying to help people all the time, and get rid of these badguys in the world, often will carry over into my personal life, and how I would handel a situation. For example, the other day at the store, a woman (lil older, 50s) had a lil hand dog. Completly harmless, and some punk kid walked up and started to harrass her about her dog, and dogs arn't allowed in the store..really stickin it to her. Of course I walk up and instantly stand up for this helpless woman, calm, but firm, not mean what-so-ever. and a manager finaly comes over, and escorts this trouble maker out of the store. He must have really been off his wagon! this really had nothing to do with anything..
One more general thing, and understand that I'm not comming down on you, but in general, don't make things personal. Don't make them about you, about the other guy, about the third-party (victim). Just take things for what they are, understand that in a lot of situations, including this internet forum (where no one knows you, and no one had any idea who you were before you started posting), in the store in your story above, and on the street, people are reacting to situations, not the people involved. If some guy tells you he hates cops, that doesn't mean anything to you. If a guy fights you, it's still not about you.

Also, in your story above, I would not have gotten involved the way you did. If I thought it was a big deal, I would have told a store employee or manager. Let them decide what the rules are in their store.

Quote:
but thought I'd share my story to show what kind of guy I am..well at least try to explain.
It does. The easy way to learn is to listen and believe the guys who already learned. The hard way is to learn on your own. You aren't starting out for a worse place than anyone else, but you are going to learn a lot, whether you are LEO or not. Do as much learning the easy way as you can.
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Old August 31, 2007, 12:17 PM   #140
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I'm glad I got to this thread late. Had I read it yesterday evening, it most likely would've gone the way of the Lights-On-Guns thread. As it is, things seem to have settled down and a few are trying to get things back on track, so this will stay open... for now.

It's still somewhat off topic though. BillCA didn't ask whether or not you should clear your own house. He didn't ask whether or not to control a suspect once he's given up.

And, he didn't ask whether or not MyXD40 will make a good cop. (Powderman nailed it in his last two paragraphs though.)

What he did ask is...

Quote:
How much training have you devoted to controlling a suspect/threat if he appears to capitulate?
The assumption is that you are going to control him.

Now, the question is, how are you going to do that?
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Old August 31, 2007, 12:27 PM   #141
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Thanks Capt. Charlie for not locking this one. I think it has given a good run of dialogue on the subject and it's been educational for the most part.

I still stand behind my earlier statement that IF we get to that point I want him proned out face down with ankles crossed and arms extended outward palms up. Someone else added that his ankles should be touching his tush and he should be looking away from you and that's not a bad idea either. One more movement before getting to his feet and it keeps him from keeping tabs on you.

The biggest thing for me though is once he's down stay away from him. Don't try to get fancy with handcuffs and such. Let the police do the policework.
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Old August 31, 2007, 12:44 PM   #142
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I have training with restraint, But I DO NOT think it's a good idea AT ALL. I have some training in verbalization DURING a SD situation, but very little in controlling a perp who is on my floor (wonder why that wasn't covered). Time to plan vacation days and save up for more training, I guess.
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Old August 31, 2007, 12:53 PM   #143
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I guess I never addressed the training aspect in my earlier posts.

I do hold black belt in two martial art systems that focus heavily on grappling/controls. I also am/have been certified in several crisis intervention/prevention/control systems (NCI, PIC, CPI) to be used with mental health patients and have been (in prior years) an instructor in such systems. I have the requisite skills to handle a physical control situation if it comes to it, but I don't wanna go there if I don't have to. I'd rather stand off and maintain distance with a firearm thanks.

I've never had any LEO training nor am I military/prior military.
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Old August 31, 2007, 03:26 PM   #144
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/\ Exactly.
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Old September 1, 2007, 10:35 AM   #145
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sorry for my late reply, was out all day car shopping. Bought a new one. sweetness! another bill for an item I can't use (wifeys car

anywho, I think controling a suspect is a smart thing to do, ONLY when the situation allows it. Now problem is, those situations are very very limited so the odds of it even going to happen, slim to none.
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Old September 1, 2007, 05:39 PM   #146
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I am thinking that the best restraining you can do when a intruder appears to capitulate would be restraining yourself from shooting him. I don't think One of the "kill em all" crowd has ever had to take a life in combat, SD, or otherwise. You could hold him at gunpoint till LE arrives however, you will be the one pointing a gun at another when the adrenalin charged cavalry arrives. That could be more life threatening than the initial intrusion. I don't have the ultimate answer! I think it is different by case and individual. Just remember, a clean shoot will still affect your life and you may be suprised at how few pats on the back you get. So, if being a hero in your own mind is what you are looking for then by all means "castle doctine away"
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Old September 2, 2007, 02:55 PM   #147
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Thanks Capt Charlie.

The basic purpose I had in bringing up this subject was to find out how many people had actually thought about what to do if they catch someone who appears to be no immediate threat - that is, someone who surrenders.

It is true that trying to clear your house while solo is a bad idea. But I consider that a different subject as here we are talking about doing a "midnight recon" to confirm if the noise was an intruder or simply the cat knocking a book off the coffee table. Was that "thump" you heard in the backyard someone landing on the ground? Or the neighbor's fat Mr. Tomcat jumping from a tree onto the wooden fence? So you got up and checked, there is the person inside, you spot him, point your gun and tell him not to move.

So now what? Well, we've heard from a number of people with a mish-mash of ideas, some good, some not so good and a few that are scary. The essence remains that you now have to control this person until the polizei arrive.

As I see it, you really have just two choices. Carefully direct him out the exit and tell him to get lost... OR ...take control of the situation, prone him out and wait for your local PD to supply reinforcements.

It's one thing to wake up to an odd noise that happens only once or wondering what knocked over the beer can on the kitchen counter. It's quite another thing to wake up and hear someone inside, stumbling over the kid's toys and muttering to themselves.

In the latter case, where you know someone is in the house remember this saying;

Never go looking for trouble, you might find it.

I'm also reminded by a friend and former USMC sniper of his "world view" - No matter how bada** you think you are, there is always someone out there who is better than you.

Keep your commands short and concise.
Remember to avoid tunnel vision - watch for accomplices.
Focus on getting the intruder prone and under control first. Don't engage in a conversation until he's proned out and controlled.

If the subject asks what you intend to do, tell them the truth - I'm going to let the cops take you away. or I'm going to turn you over the the cops.

The two most difficult situations I can think of here are the ultra-nervous guy and the guy who refuses to do anything you tell him.

If you get some nervous buster waiving his arms and pleading not to shoot, you'll have to yell your commands to get through his yammering. But also watch that this isn't a ruse to get closer to you or something to dive behind.

The guy who just stops and doesn't do anything can be more frightening. You can't tell if he is deaf, doesn't understand English, insane, on drugs or testing you to look for an advantage.

Always try to fix their position in relationship to some object. If you see them moving away from that object, even if just by shifting their feet, remind them "If you keep moving, you're going to get shot."
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Old September 3, 2007, 10:49 AM   #148
easyG
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I don't think One of the "kill em all" crowd has ever had to take a life in combat, SD, or otherwise.
Just because someone chooses to handle a situation different than yourself it would be silly to assume that they have never actually taken a life in combat or self-defense.
It's just a totally baseless notion.

Quote:
The basic purpose I had in bringing up this subject was to find out how many people had actually thought about what to do if they catch someone who appears to be no immediate threat - that is, someone who surrenders.
While I agree that you cannot just shoot someone outside your home who "appears to be no immediate threat" or who "surrenders", inside the home it is another matter altogether....

An intruder in your home should ALWAYS be treated as a threat to you and your family, regardless of how the APPEAR.

Quote:
The essence remains that you now have to control this person until the polizei arrive.
No. It is not your job to apprehend criminals (unless you are a cop).
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Old September 3, 2007, 11:11 AM   #149
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This is an absurd debate. Unless you are willing to shoot a guy in the back who is unwilling to stay put what are you going to do? If you are willing to shoot someone in the back rather than let them leave your house then you probably shouldn't be allowed to own anything more dangerous than a baseball bat.

In most states it is illegal for a non-cop to detain anyone. Asking how one should go about performing this illegal and ill-advised action is akin to asking how to make meth.
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Old September 3, 2007, 07:50 PM   #150
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Here's another point, raised by BillCA:

In spanish, the command for


"Do Not Move" is:
"No te muevas!"
(pronounced "no tay mweh-vahs")


Don't pay attention to online translations, as they are inaccurate, translating to things like "It doesn't move".




"Lay down!"
"acu├ęstese"
(pronounced "ah kwess- teh- say")



"On the floor!"
"en el piso"
(pronounced "enn ell pee-so")




"face down!"
"cara abajo"
(pronounced "cah-rah a-bah-hoe")



"I will kill you"
"te mato"
(pronounced "tay mah-toe")


"If you move"
"si te mueves"
(pronounced "see tay mweh-vess")


"hands open"
"manos abierto"
(pronounced "mah-nose ah-byehr-toe")


"hands out"
"manos para fuera"
(pronounced "mah-nose parah -fweh-dah")


"don't look at me"
"no me mires"
(pronounced "no may mee-dess")
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