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Old August 30, 2007, 12:57 PM   #51
easyG
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Quote:
It's not abuse. It is their job and what our tax dollars pay for.
Quote:
That is what the police get paid to do.
No, that's not what police are paid to do.

Police are paid to fight crime....not investigate every little noise in your home only to discover that a magnet fell off of your fridge, or that the wind knocked over one of your deck chairs, or that your cat killed a mouse in the basement.

Do you call the EMS everytime you get sick or injured?
After all, is'nt coming to your rescue exactly what they're "paid to do"?

Quote:
....it just lacks common sense!
Common sense is not wasting police resources just because one is too scared to investigate a strange noise himself.

I can tell you this...our forefathers were a heck of a lot more courageous than the men today (and use the word "men" very loosely in this instance).
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Old August 30, 2007, 01:04 PM   #52
rantingredneck
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Clearing the home vs. Assuring safety of loved ones.

Some of us have to consider the safety and security of our children in the event of the dreaded "bump in the night".

Luckily, in my case, I can secure my son and daughter's rooms from the doorway to my bedroom. Wife on the phone to 911, me in the doorway with firearm and flashlight in case it's needed. Wife has gun too.

If I have to venture down the hallway a few feet to get my daughter from her room then it's back to the bedroom. My son's room is straight across from ours so it's easier to get him. I encounter anyone in the process that shouldn't be there and they present a threat, see my earlier posts.

That's as far as I'll go in "clearing" my house. Simply to make sure my kids are safe.

I know this thread grew out of the locked tac light thread and I didn't post in that one, but I'll give my .02 on lights. I have them but will only turn them on if absolutely necessary. I don't want them giving away position if it can be avoided. There's one mounted on my 870 and one mounted on my PC9. There's one by my P345 as well.

I like the little plug in night lights positioned in strategic locations in the living room/foyer area. From my designated position in the bedroom doorway, that gives some backlight to those areas and anyone who may be there. Makes identifying friend/foe and target acquisition (if needed) easier without relying on flashlights.

It's possible that they (along with the exterior lights) may deter a break in in the first place.
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Old August 30, 2007, 01:17 PM   #53
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Be a man and deal with it yourself.
Future Darwin Award right there.



"Do you have a statement for the press, officer?"

"Well, at this time, we believe the homeowner surprised a burglar, and from the wound pattern, someone else shot the homeowner from behind, possibly an accomplice..."

BARRICADE. Get your family behind you. That's the only smart thing to do!
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Old August 30, 2007, 01:17 PM   #54
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Make your own choices gentlemen and ladies but for me...

Outside : I will not detain a criminal outside my house, the cops and dogs can go chase him. My job is to stay alive and not get myself or other innocents hurt.

Inside the house: My family's bedroom are upstairs, if we hear an obvious ' bump in the night' downstairs then the police are going to get the call. it is their job,that is what they are trained for and thay is what they are paid for. I will inform the intruder that the police are on the way and that they need to leave NOW. If they run out the front door then I have accomplished the most important task - making sure my family is safe.

If the intruder decides to come upstairs then they will be dealt with in a different manner, right there on the spot, then the police will take the report.


BTW: I love the testosterone pumping lines like " Be a man and take care of it yourself "

Put that on your tombstone, your family will appreciate it...LOL

just my 2 cents.
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Last edited by mikejonestkd; August 30, 2007 at 01:52 PM. Reason: added famous last words...
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Old August 30, 2007, 01:46 PM   #55
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you know..I hate to be the smart one here, let me knock a lil common sense into this topic.

Ok you hear a bump in the night, as some of you say, you call 911. Now, you're upstairs in your room, scared, thinking someones in your house. You call the cops. Cops bust in your front door thinking theres someone in your house...now you have a busted front door, just becasue the wind was blowing and a trash can got knocked over.

now for the people who will respond "cops wont bust down your door"..ok so they are going to wait outside, for YOU to walk through your home? I dont think cops are going to investigate, or even be able to fully go around your home to find any and all possibly entry/exit ways, small or huge. So now you have to walk downstairs in your house to unlock the door so cops can come inot your house..

I think I'll clear my house. I have some nice expensive toys in my house that I can't live without. If someone tries to jack them, I dont want to wait for insurance to pay me back and go a few weeks without my plasma tv, or my laptops. Nope not me!
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Old August 30, 2007, 02:02 PM   #56
rantingredneck
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I have some nice expensive toys in my house that I can't live without. If someone tries to jack them, I dont want to wait for insurance to pay me back and go a few weeks without my plasma tv, or my laptops. Nope not me!
Still curious as to what your particular state's laws are concerning use of deadly force to protect property. I know what mine are. They can have the damn TV, I ain't going to prison for drawing down on them over it.

I think we're all using the term "bump in the night" pretty broadly but I don't think anyone's gonna call the cops when the family cat passes gas. You hear a bump and wake up. You listen intently for a minute and hear the front door opening or glass breaking or voices or the sounds of someone rummaging through your living room, well then you arm yourself and call the cops.

You hear the windchimes bumping against the back door, go back to sleep. Then move the windchimes in the morning.

Last edited by rantingredneck; August 30, 2007 at 04:32 PM.
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Old August 30, 2007, 02:07 PM   #57
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Again, don't abuse the 911 system by calling the police for every little odd noise you hear in your home.
Be a man and deal with it yourself.
I think I see the point here. There's a definite distinction between a bump and a thud in the night. Having the door knocked down is not a bump in the night. Time to call the cops.
Just because my dogs are barking does not merit a call. They'll bark at anything - skunks, neighbors coming home etc. In this case, I see no harm in grabbing my weapon and carefully scoping out the house so I can get back to sleep.
Quote:
I think I'll clear my house. I have some nice expensive toys in my house that I can't live without
Now that would go well on a tombstone.
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Old August 30, 2007, 02:22 PM   #58
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Common sense is not wasting police resources just because one is too scared to investigate a strange noise himself.
It is not a "waste" of police resources. It is a wise and legitimate use.

You can tell a lot about people's experience and qualifications by their comments. In spite of the fact that every professional organization and most legitimate experts advocate waiting in your safe room for the police - not clearing your home, there are those who insist on dispensing thier own "expert" advice. It would be interesting to see their qualifications and what they think makes their opinion more valid than said organizations.

Quote:
I can tell you this...our forefathers were a heck of a lot more courageous than the men today (and use the word "men" very loosely in this instance).
I find it amusing when people who cannot attack the message choose to attack the messenger - as if that invalidates any argument. You would do well to not disparage those who's qualifications you are not aware of. As far as manliness goes, I think the fact that I have BTDT more than once and my commendations speak for themselves.

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you know..I hate to be the smart one here, let me knock a lil common sense into this topic.
Funny how you make this statement then reduce the scenario below the level of logic. A trash can knocked over is a far cry from the sound of a door being kicked in or someone rummaging through your house. I find it laughable that people advocate 1. not calling the police if you think someone is outside of your house 2. going out to investigate. Think about it: the professionals who do those things for a living do it in TEAMS, not individuals. There is a reason for that. There is also a reason why these same people and organizations advocate not clearing your house. If this is your idea of common sense, have at it!

Quote:
Now, you're upstairs in your room, scared, thinking someones in your house.
Again, it is a question of using your most potent weapon: your brain, not your ego. Bravery has nothing to do with it. Nor does skill or training. I have a higher level of skill than 98% of the population, lots of training and experience. Yet, I still would not clear my house. There is nothing in my house worth dying for. That is real common sense.
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Old August 30, 2007, 02:50 PM   #59
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Originally posted by Samurai

There are two applications here: Out in the street vs. In your home.

When out in the street, there's no need (or legal justification) for holding the suspect. If you can leave, you leave. If you can't leave (and imminent death or serious bodily injury is feared), you shoot until you can leave (threat is neutralized). Either way, after the threat is neutralized, RUN!

When in your home, after an area is secured, and the suspect is surrendering, the only training you really need to do is to learn to raise the intensity of your voice, while remaining calm and in control. Order the suspect to the ground, with his arms and legs spread out flat. Warn him/her that if he/she moves, you will "shoot and kill" them. (I like "shoot and kill." It rings home alot better than, "I will fire," or other such language.) Call the cops, and wait. Keep far enough distance that the suspect cannot reach you, but stay close enough that you can shoot accurately if you need to.

If there's a gun, it's a different situation. Order the gun tossed aside, slowly. Remind the suspect that if he moves, you will "shoot and kill" him. From there, if he does not immediately comply with your request to lose the weapon and lie down, shoot. Threat is present.


My Response
Oh boy! After reading through this I had to go back and read it again.

On the street you are telling people that if they get in to a gunfight and have to defend themselves, to run away. I'm sorry, running is what the guilty do. It makes you look very guilty if you RUN. The guilty run away, the justified stay to face their accusers. There is nothing wrong with seeking cover or going to a "safe location" but it doesn't need to be too far away either.

In your home you use the word "Shoot and Kill". Please tell me you were being sarcastic, but I doubt it. If the intruder flees from the home, let him/her go. You don't need to have a "conversation" with an intruder, but CLEAR, SHORT, CONCISE commands need to be given.

STOP
DO NOT MOVE
SET THE WEAPON DOWN

Those are the kinds of commands I'm referring to. Nowhere do I say, "I will shoot and kill you." If you haven't learned this yet you need to, "You do not shoot to kill, only to STOP the action that is threatening you. Another problem I have is, you tell the suspect that you will "shoot and kill them" then order them to move. Guess what, Premeditated Murder.

After this example I would have a hard time believing anything you say if I was on a jury. I do not mean this as a personal attack on you, but if someone reading this is not well versed in self defense and the law I would hate to see them "hung out to dry" by the judicail system after reading what you posted, if they did what you said to do.

I have had the opportunity to hold a loaded firearm on more than one person. If I did what you suggest I would've been in prison after the first time. God I hate bad advice, no matter where it comes from.
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Old August 30, 2007, 02:53 PM   #60
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Powderman,
Your post #37 is good logic where applicable as is;
Quote:
There is nothing in my house worth dying for. That is real common sense.
Provided of course that Lurper meant material things, not family, as is I'm sure the case.
My house is unfortunately flawed by design and thus cannot render itself to your point(s).
If the BG enters through the side door, he enters a large common area in which is a doorway leading to the hallway for the bedrooms. Once in that doorway, he cuts me off from the kids rooms, with my son's door directly behind him, making a poor backdrop. My only choice is to guard that doorway to prevent entry, and the only effective cover is the kitchen. This leaves me basically meeting him where he entered.
One problem for him is the two dogs. One a pretty harmless (but really loud) Black Lab, and the other a Border-Chow mix with more moves than Jackie Chan. This nut would go after a tiger, though you wouldn't know it 'cuz he's so cute. **right baby?, who's daddy's boy? awww** Oops, did I say that out loud??
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Old August 30, 2007, 02:59 PM   #61
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I have some nice expensive toys in my house that I can't live without.
No you don't, and that just generally a dangerous position to take.
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Old August 30, 2007, 03:08 PM   #62
BillCA
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We have some very good responses and some educational dialog going on here.

RantingRedneck, Powderman, JoeBlackSpade, Lurper and MikeJoneskd get it. It looks like Tanzer and Outcast get it too.

When I talk to people buying a gun for home defense and the subject of "bump in the night" comes up, I like to use this little reminder;

Never go looking for trouble, you might find it.

If a bonafide threat exists in the house before you encounter it, your best tactic is to take a defensive position to protect yourself & family. Call the cops to deal with the BG's while you keep them away from you and your family.

There are times and circumstances that may require modifying this approach.

For instance, you may have a child in a downstairs bedroom. Or you are investigating an unidentifiable noise that doesn't sound like an intruder. Maybe it's a sound from the kitchen that makes you wonder if you forgot to close the window. Or a noise that might be an intruder or it might be the cat knocked over a few tomes in the bookcase. While checking, you discover the intruder. Retreat is an option, though I think many of us might challenge from a corner or behind some object.

Since I'm in a fairly small, single-story townhome, my actions will probably vary from yours. My basic principles are:
  1. Intruder? Defend from the bedroom, dial 911. State the problem, tell the operator I'm the pudgy gray-haired guy in my BVDs, leave line open.
  2. Focus, breathe, listen; Likely it will only be 30-90 seconds before he is visible down a short (~5 yard) hall. Focus & breathe to calm self. Listen to see if it sounds like one person or more than one.
  3. If intruder visible, deep breath and use a command voice to say STOP! DON'T MOVE!. Realize fear will make it sound like Don Knotts going through puberty!
  4. If intruder makes furtive move, approaches or makes threatening moves, remember to apologize to dispatcher for deafening noises in their earphone.
  5. If intruder "surrenders" get them prone with arms extended quickly. Assume a 2nd intruder, wait for PD to arrive. Do not focus solely on the prone intruder.
  6. Communicate to disptacher - may have to yell at the phone on the floor.
  7. Do NOT engage in converstation or discussion with the intruder. Only issue commands. If they try to converse with you, tell them Shut up! Be Quiet!
  8. If intruder flees (or it sounds like he did) stay put until the PD arrives.

Depending on the layout of your house, if the intruder retreats (i.e. he goes downstairs and you hear the door open or slam) do not relax until the PD arrives. If you lose sight of him, you don't know if he has left or not. If you haven't called the PD, do so and let them clear the house. They can bring as many officers and taticool weapons as they need to do the job safely.

Remember the intruder and tell him the police are enroute. Also tell him that if he makes any moves he may be shot.

To get someone prone;
  1. Get your hands up, now! Up all the way. [inspect beltline for weapons]
  2. Keep your hands up and kneel straight down. [you may need to order him to move 1-2 steps to a clear space.]
  3. Lay face down on the ground, and spread your arms out [or arms extended over the head in narrow areas]
  4. Turn your hands palms up. [check for weapons]
  5. Cross your feet at the ankles.
  6. Turn your head to the {right/left} [whichever is away from you to avoid visual contact]
  7. Stay there. Don't Move!

If you have a tactical light, remember that while it blinds him, it also gives your position away as much as your voice.

Do NOT try to cuff the intruder, search them, or even get near them. Do NOT relax until the PD has arrived, then communicate with them clearly. Follow their instructions. If you have any remote light controls, use them when the PD arrives so the house is not totally dark.
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Old August 30, 2007, 03:20 PM   #63
Tanzer
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Hey BillCA,
I'm the pudgy, gray-haired yet strikingly handsome guy in his BVD's...
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Old August 30, 2007, 03:33 PM   #64
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Someone commented about getting between the intruder and an exit or the exit. Someone else noted the tactical issues with their home layout putting the BG between them and their kids.

First - if at all possible you want to avoid putting yourself between the BG and the exit. Two reasons. 1) He may really want to leave without a confrontation, but if you're blocking the exit, he may panic and try to go through you anyhow. 2) a prosecutor may tell a jury you put yourself into danger by intentionally cutting off the escape route just so you could shoot the intruder.

In homes that are poorly laid out, such as in Tanzer's case, there aren't many options other than good planning. Placement of the furniture in rooms to reduce hazards and a family plan, such as kids getting on the floor may help.

MyXD40 - a solution for allowing the cops entry to your locked house is as follows;
1. One spare house key or set (knob and deadbolt)
2. One old wire coat hangar
3. One Cyalume lightstick (any color; green or orange work well)
4. Electrical or duct tape.

Cut hangar about 12" to 18" long. Add key(s) and Cyalume stick. Form into a circle and tightly twist ends together, cover with duct tape or electrical tape.

Put this in the safe room in a specific location. Activate light-stick and toss out of bedroom window into the yard. Notify dispatcher that the keys are attached to a glowing lightstick (green, orange, red, etc.) and approximately where to find it.
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Old August 30, 2007, 03:35 PM   #65
easyG
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BTW: I love the testosterone pumping lines like " Be a man and take care of it yourself "

Put that on your tombstone, your family will appreciate it...LOL
IMO, it's far better to die a man than live as a coward.
A man dies only one death, a coward dies a thousand deaths.

Quote:
You hear a bump and wake up. You listen intently for a minute and hear the front door opening or glass breaking or voices or the sounds of someone rummaging through your living room, well then you arm yourself and call the cops.
Quote:
Funny how you make this statement then reduce the scenario below the level of logic. A trash can knocked over is a far cry from the sound of a door being kicked in or someone rummaging through your house.
But suppose you only hear that one single "bump"?
No breaking glass, just that single "bump"?
Would you still call the police?

I wouldn't.

Could you go back to sleep and rest easy without investigating?

I couldn't.


Quote:
In spite of the fact that every professional organization and most legitimate experts advocate waiting in your safe room for the police -
That's for two reasons:
1) It is a legal libility issue if an police agency actually encourages you to clear your own home and you do get killed....and the agency's lawyers are not about to open themselves up for that lawsuit.
2) Cops think that every non-cop is a total idiot when it comes to guns, self defense, and home defense.
Most of the cops I've met don't think that the average citizen should even own a gun.
So I don't place my faith in the advice of such "experts".

I find it odd that there are men here who are prior military (like myself), or who were once cops, or who participate in all manner of dangerous life threatening pursuits (skydiving, mountain-climbing, scuba-diving, combat sports, and such) but who are afraid to clear their own home when they hear a noise at night.
It's just sad.
I just don't understand folks who claim to be a BTDT and yet they refuse to man up and take responsibility for their own home defense.

Quote:
I find it laughable that people advocate 1. not calling the police if you think someone is outside of your house 2. going out to investigate. Think about it: the professionals who do those things for a living do it in TEAMS, not individuals.
Face it, the local PD aint gonna send out the SWAT team to investigate a noise in your home....it'll most likely be some young kid in his twenties...he might have a partner and he might not.

And I can't imagine how I would feel if some fresh faced rookie was sent out and got killed clearing my house for me.
I have the advantage because I know my house better than anyone.
I know every creaking board, every blind turn, and every nook and cranny.
When it comes to clearing my own home there is no better person for the job than myself.


Quote:
I have a higher level of skill than 98% of the population, lots of training and experience.
WOW Lurper!
Now that's impressive....only two other people are equal or higher in skill than yourself!!!
Please, tell me who they are, I'm just dying to know.
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Old August 30, 2007, 03:37 PM   #66
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BikerRN

Excellent point on the "shoot and kill" language. It could be that there are some important considerations, depending on your jurisdiction. Here in Tennessee, the newly enacted castle doctrine creates a presumption of justification if you shoot an intruder in your home, and the dead suspect's estate bears the costs of civil litigation in an unjustified civil suit. That takes a LOT of the stress off of the mind of a homeowner when using a weapon in the home.

But, alas, you're right. It's not that way in many states! You have to be careful what you say to an intruder, because you may be admitting to a premeditated act.
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Old August 30, 2007, 03:57 PM   #67
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Samurai

Thank you for not taking my post as a personal assault. I assure you it was not meant that way.

Take care mate and stay safe.

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Old August 30, 2007, 04:19 PM   #68
rantingredneck
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I'm the pudgy, gray-haired yet strikingly handsome guy in his BVD's...
That's one reason I sleep in a pair of gym shorts or other "around the house" shorts. I don't wanna be caught with my pants down.
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Old August 30, 2007, 04:21 PM   #69
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Now that's impressive....only two other people are equal or higher
Uh, there are more than 100 people on the Earth. A good bit more.


BTW, I'd say his 98% figure is likely spot on.
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Old August 30, 2007, 04:24 PM   #70
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Quote:
But suppose you only hear that one single "bump"?
No breaking glass, just that single "bump"?
Would you still call the police?

I wouldn't.

Could you go back to sleep and rest easy without investigating?

I couldn't.
You investigate every single noise? You must get up a lot at night. My icemaker would drive you to distraction.
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Old August 30, 2007, 04:24 PM   #71
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I forsee the pad-lock on this one too in the near future
As for you "despensers of common sense", keep your bad ideas to yourselves.
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Old August 30, 2007, 04:34 PM   #72
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Quote:
But suppose you only hear that one single "bump"?
No breaking glass, just that single "bump"?
Would you still call the police?

I wouldn't.
At least we can agree on something.

Quote:
That's for two reasons:
1) It is a legal libility issue if an police agency actually encourages you to clear your own home and you do get killed....and the agency's lawyers are not about to open themselves up for that lawsuit.
2) Cops think that every non-cop is a total idiot when it comes to guns, self defense, and home defense.
Most of the cops I've met don't think that the average citizen should even own a gun.
So I don't place my faith in the advice of such "experts".
I wasn't talking about the police. I meant organizations like NRA and just about every defensive firearms organization and instructor in the country. Liability has nothing to do with it. Common sense does.

Quote:
I find it odd that there are men here who are prior military (like myself), or who were once cops, or who participate in all manner of dangerous life threatening pursuits (skydiving, mountain-climbing, scuba-diving, combat sports, and such) but who are afraid to clear their own home when they hear a noise at night.
None of those occupations or hobbies bear any relevance to:
1. your ability to clear your house
2. your skill at defensive pistolcraft
3. your knowledge or ability to offer sound, educated advice on the subject

Just because someone was a cop, Ranger, SF, etc. doesn't mean they know what they are talking about when it comes to personal protection in the home or pistolcraft. Fear has nothing to do with it. It is about being smart and safe.

Quote:
I just don't understand folks who claim to be a BTDT and yet they refuse to man up and take responsibility for their own home defense.
My claims (like my skill level) are easy enough to check and others on this forum have, so they are more than just claims. But, it has nothing to do with "man up" and everything to do with using your brain. Some just can't get beyond their egos. If you can't understand the tactical advantages of waiting for your assailant to come to you and the tactical disadvantages of trying to search them out, then I'm sorry you just don't get it and never will.
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Old August 30, 2007, 04:35 PM   #73
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I hope this doesn't get locked. So far this has been kept mostly civil. And as BillCA notes it's resulting in some educational dialogue.

I'm a bit disturbed by some of the posters intentions to enter a life or death struggle over a TV or take it upon themselves to do the job of their local PD, but if reading and contributing to the discussion helps work these things through for them all the better. If not, well at least the rest of us tried, and maybe someone else who's quietly lurking in the background can benefit.
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Old August 30, 2007, 04:37 PM   #74
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Uh, there are more than 100 people on the Earth. A good bit more.

BTW, I'd say his 98% figure is likely spot on.
Opps, my mistake....

So, only 2% of the entire earth's population is equal or high in skill than Lurper?

Right...
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Old August 30, 2007, 04:39 PM   #75
easyG
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You investigate every single noise? You must get up a lot at night. My icemaker would drive you to distraction.
No, just the unusual noises.

I know the noises my fridge makes, and I know the noises my AC makes, and other such common noises.
But if I hear a noise that I have not heard before, yeah, I go and check it out.
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