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Old August 29, 2007, 11:08 PM   #26
MyXD40
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To answer BillCa statment "So far, no one has posted what commands they would use or how they would initially address someone (other than two posters who said their muzzles would do the talking)."
I hear a bump in the night. I assume they are downstairs, as I grab my loaded XD service with hollows, and my 4'' LED flashlight, I wake up the wifey, tell her if she hears me yelling, to call 911. (ofcourse if she hears gunshots she'll call as well) And I'll go ahead and with my light off, check the other two rooms upstairs. just a quick peek, while keeping my eye on the stairway. If I hear something, flash the wifey in the bedroom with the light. Then proceed to walk down the stairs. Now I usualy have a few nightlights on, or in the kitchen, the stove light. USE WHATEVER YOU CAN TO GET AN IDEA OF WHERE SOMEONE MAY BE!! I'd listen, use my best judgement on where suspect would be. Look for shadows on the ground/walls. Mirrors. Walk into the kitchen, using walls as cover overlooking all entry/exits for that room. Now as I find my suspect, I would yell at him "FREEZE DON'T MOVE. I will shoot you if you move". Ofcourse in my controling voice. Loud but calm. Tone, but not like I'm trying. Then depending on how he/she takes that..thats what will tell me what to say/do next, like in any situation.

Hope this answer works cause I train like this a few times a year with the wifey just incase someone decides to come into my home
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Old August 29, 2007, 11:11 PM   #27
rantingredneck
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Yes Capitulate is a big word
Gee whiz, that's clever.

Since I seem to be one of the ones that people think will shoot anyone anywhere let me further explain myself.

In the great state of NC we have some rather schizophrenic SD laws. You may use deadly force to prevent entry to your home. Hence my post earlier saying you can legally shoot someone coming through your window. Would I shoot first and ask questions later in that situation even though legally justified? I can't necessarily say yes or no, it would depend on the circumstances at the time.

Once the individual is in your home here in NC, you have to have a reasonable fear of imminent death or bodily harm to use deadly force. Now when I say use deadly force that includes simply pointing a gun at someone. So if I see a person in my living room and they have a gun in their hand deadly force is then justifiable. Now do I say "Stop right there" or do I shoot? Again circumstances will dictate, but at that point I would reasonably consider that person a threat and my thinking is don't wait for him to shoot or to raise his weapon to shoot. The presence of the weapon itself is enough of a threat to my life and family thanks.

The person is in my living room taking my plasma TV off the wall and no weapon is present, I can't even point my gun at him in the first place. That would be an unjustifiable use of deadly force, and as I said above I'd have some 'splaining to do. So I have the gun in my hand pointed at the floor and say, " get the hell out of my house, the cops are on the way." He runs out the door, TV in hand, all is well I have homeowners insurance for that. He drops the TV and grabs for a gun, then we're back to the above situation.

The point I've been trying to make is this, deadly force is more than just shooting at someone. Pointing a gun at someone is deadly force. I have to have justification even to do that. I see a gun in someone's hand the justification is there. At that point he's threat enough. I can't say what I would say at that point if anything. I don't legally have to say anything.

If he for some reason dropped his weapon and capitulated without shots fired and he's near the door, fine, leave. Get away from my family. If I am between him and the exit then it's prone out on the floor hands away from the body.

If he's in a hallway, as BillCA noted above, where out to the side doesn't work I would think stretched straight out would be better.

One thing for sure I ain't getting within grappling distance with him. That's asking for a struggle over a gun and not a tactically smart thing to do. Keep distance, keep him covered, get the police there to do the police work. They've got cuffs and backup for this purpose.
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Old August 29, 2007, 11:19 PM   #28
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The person is in my living room taking my plasma TV off the wall and no weapon is present, I can't even point my gun at him in the first place. That would be an unjustifiable use of deadly force, and as I said above I'd have some 'splaining to do.
Who's to say that he didn't try to smash your head with the TV?
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Old August 29, 2007, 11:24 PM   #29
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Can you use cuffs? Now I know as myself I would handcuff the suspect if at all possible..after all, if he was in my house, that would be breaking and entering..right?

In most jurisdictions in the United States, burglary is a felony and involves trespassing, entering a building or automobile, or remaining unlawfully with intent to commit any felony, not necessarily a theft -- for example, vandalism. Thus, a conviction for burglary may qualify as a conviction under a three strikes law or habitual criminal statute. Even if nothing is stolen in a burglary, the act is a statutory offense. Some burglars have rape as an objective, so the crime of burglary is not exclusively a property crime. Burglary may be an essential element in such a crime as arson, kidnapping, identity theft, or violation of civil rights; indeed the "plumbers" of the Watergate scandal were technically burglars. As with all legal definitions in the U.S., the foregoing description may not be applicable in every jurisdiction since there are 51 separate criminal codes in force.

Aggravated burglary
Under s10, a burglary becomes aggravated when a burglar has with him at the time a weapon of offence ( i.e could be a rag to tie up a security guard ), imitation firearm, firearm or explosive (W.I.F.E). (There is no requirement that any of these items are used in the commission of the offence; merely that they are in the possession of the burglar at the time.) Aggravated burglary is an indictable only offence, and carries a maximum of life imprisonment.


[edit] Time
The defendant must have the firearm, weapon, or explosive at the time of the burglary, namely:

s9(1)(a) when entering;
s9(1)(b) when committing the theft, attempted theft, GBH or attempted GBH.
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Old August 29, 2007, 11:29 PM   #30
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How about this question,

if they break in your house, take your tv, you dont shoot them, they run out the door. They know, even tho you have a handgun you wont shoot them..who's to say they wont come back and rob you again????

I know I want to either get them arrested, hopes they have a warrant, are wanted for murder or something, and will be locked up for awhile. Or if I shoot them, well I'll shoot them dead so no need to worry about them comming back for revenge!!

also what if they are in a room, and you're at the exit, and they cant leave..well if they charge you (to leave, or hurt you, who knows!), bang bang! Or police show up and arrest them!
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Old August 29, 2007, 11:33 PM   #31
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Sincerely

My apologies. Sometimes I forget that many of the members of this forum may not be LEO or Vet. I mistake many yrs of training for common sense and that is where I have gone wrong here. I recognize difference of opinion as a right that each of us has and to force mine upon others is usually not to their benefit or mine. I will try not to be so argumentative in my future posts.
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Old August 29, 2007, 11:42 PM   #32
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SilentArmy, you LEO? If so, at least you have experince on how to handle those situations..so really you're a teacher, and everyone else is your students!
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Old August 29, 2007, 11:43 PM   #33
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First off, if a burglar broke into my house he must be stone deaf. My two dogs would raise so much hell, they'd wake the dead. Secondly, all my doors are secured most of the time (except for when we are working outside), so in order for that "neighborhood teenager" or "local drunk" to be in my home they'd have had to break in.
That being said, anyone in my home uninvited is hostile, and will have only one chance to comply to any command given.
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Old August 30, 2007, 12:30 AM   #34
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MyXD

No longer LEO. I let my Cert expire. I am a Private contractor as an LEO salary in my state would not make my truck payment, much less buy my toys!
Experience is my teacher. I did not come here to teach (what a thankless job that would be) Just looking to learn a little and answer what questions I do know the correct answers to. I graduated from my Academy class 3rd academic and top Physical in my class. I know the laws in Utah well and I train hard to this day to maintain what I learned from LE and my military service. I have only drawn my weapon on 3 occasions. I do not/did not carry Cuffs when not in uniform and as I said in a previous post, open carry went away here when they caught Billy the kid! (ok it was a few yrs after that) I do have a hard time listening to lack of common sense and hence my mean posts. I DO know what will get you "Hemmed up" in Utah! and understand that when you become LE, your Agency is NOT obligated to back your actions while off duty. The "hot shot" types from my academy class are still waving vehicles thru a gate for pinkerton or "back" doing same after embarrassing an agency with off on/duty antics.
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Old August 30, 2007, 12:38 AM   #35
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Well that's good. I understand fully from where you're comming from. I get highly upset with some posters on this forum who lack common sense. Either way, keep up the good posts sounds like you have a lot to offer and I dont know what or how others feel, but I respect and understand your imput
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Old August 30, 2007, 03:42 AM   #36
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assuming the descision has been made to not shoot....




hand placement, and anything else that would make it difficult for a subject to attack is key, as well as distance. interlaced BEHIND (not on top) the head or up, fully extended, palms towards you. legs crossed and ankles to the ass is best. legs crossed simply will not cut it IMO. a full bend of the knees makes it that much more difficult for a person to get up. sometimes when dealing with a subject, i will sit them with their back against a with their back either against a bare wall, or completely in the open (more than arms or legs reach from anything), with legs crossed and hands in the air or fingers interlaced behind the head. maybe some LEO could chime in on this technique? granted i also have the advantage of backup and LEO on its way.

some things to keep in mind is definately to keep fairly calm and level headed. unless you do it on a regular basis (training doesn't quite count, but it definately helps), its pretty damn hard to stay 100% calm and level headed in this situation. something else that needs to be touched on is speak only when 100% necessary, basically giving commands. do not answer any questions or respond to anything they might say. in conjunction with this, its also a good idea to tell them to keep their mouth shut. there really isn't anything they might say to you that will change your outlook on the situation, not to mention it could just be a simple distraction.


IMO it is not wise to do any sort of pat-down or even handcuffing. leave it to PD to do that. all this will do is bring you waaaay too close to the subject and force you to take your hand off of your weapon. being weaponless or being close is one thing. being both is the worst.
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Old August 30, 2007, 09:13 AM   #37
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Then proceed to walk down the stairs. Now I usualy have a few nightlights on, or in the kitchen, the stove light. USE WHATEVER YOU CAN TO GET AN IDEA OF WHERE SOMEONE MAY BE!!
NO.

A THOUSAND TIMES, NO.

NEVER attempt to clear a house, building, or other structure alone.

The only exception is if you have to go to the aid of a loved one. PERIOD.

If you attempt this, you run a VERY real risk of being ambushed. I wrote an answer to this in another thread. You do NOT want your last coherent sight in this world to be seeing the person who killed you headed toward your wife or children.

If you hear the bump in the night, call 911. STAY PUT. Arm yourself, and wait.

If you have children, teach them to either stay in their rooms, or if they're close enough to your room, to come to yours. If they're old enough, and responsible enough, consider arming THEM, with explicit instructions to hold fire until they can identify that the person coming into their room is NOT one of you.

Make sure that you call 911 immediately. Identify yourself, tell the dispatcher what is happening, describe everyone in your house that SHOULD be there, and tell them who is armed.

STAY ON THE LINE WITH DISPATCH until responding officers arrive.

If you live in a two story house, and the bedrooms are upstairs, so much the better. Let them run off with everything that is downstairs. It's only property anyway.

Your most precious gifts are the children in their rooms, or the wife or husband beside you. As long as the burglars stay downstairs, LEAVE THEM ALONE.

If you happen to surprise someone in your house, the best thing to tell them when you have them at gunpoint is:

GET OUT! GET OUT NOW!!!

Let them go! Unless you have some else backing you up, and BOTH of you are trained well in detaining a potentially dangerous subject, LET THEM GO.

Folks, trust me: you do NOT ever want to be in a situation where you are going through a darkened house or building, looking for someone who may want to KILL you. It's not fun.
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Old August 30, 2007, 09:42 AM   #38
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How about if I have a tactical light mounted on my gun so I can sweep the area, blind the intruder and scare him into submission with my scary gun and athoritive voice?

You make great points about avoiding a confrontation at all costs. Call me a wimp but my first instinct it to avoid the BG if I can and if I can't, run. If both of those options fail then the next one is to fully defend myself with my gun or whatever else is handy. It is interesting to read the discussions about when you can legally shoot and when you can't. The way I feel about it is that if I need to shoot then I have exhausted my other options and legalities are not a concern. I will worry about those later, right then it is my life than I am concerned about. I live in a state with the castle doctrine laws but that isn't going to be a major concern when I am pulling the trigger.
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Old August 30, 2007, 10:09 AM   #39
MyXD40
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Powerderman, incase you didn't happen to read any of my other posts, I myself am becoming an LEO. In the hiring process right now as we speak. And growing up, because I come from an LEO family, I was raised/tought to fight for others. So defending myself in these kind of situations like this, is natural to ME. Now the way I do things might/shouldn't be for anyone else, but for me, I feel it's my job. Yeah it's a risk. I've had two guns pointed to my head, and my life threatend. Also been cought in the middle of a shootout between two gangs (didn't have a gun at time, this was back in Jersey outside Camden)
And as far as backup, my wifey knows how to use a gun as I tought her myself. I have quite a few guns, but her gun is an XD sub-compact. That's my backup, and the one who stays on the line with 911.

And I dont know about you..but uhhh I happen to own a lot of nice, EXPENSIVE items throughout my home. Now I dont want anyone to jack my stuff. If someone was to break into my house, it'd be like walking into bestbuy, with no price tags! take what you can carry!

And I'm not going to call 911 everytime I hear a bump in the night. Last night is a perfect example. I heard a bump in the night, around 2:40am. Swear it sounded like it was on my patio, or in the next room to me. Come to find out, it was just the wind that blew the fence peice up against the empty garbage can.
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Old August 30, 2007, 10:20 AM   #40
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And I dont know about you..but uhhh I happen to own a lot of nice, EXPENSIVE items throughout my home. Now I dont want anyone to jack my stuff. If someone was to break into my house, it'd be like walking into bestbuy, with no price tags! take what you can carry!
Just curious, what's your state law say about use of deadly force to protect property?
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Old August 30, 2007, 10:24 AM   #41
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Let them go! Unless you have some else backing you up, and BOTH of you are trained well in detaining a potentially dangerous subject, LET THEM GO.

Folks, trust me: you do NOT ever want to be in a situation where you are going through a darkened house or building, looking for someone who may want to KILL you. It's not fun.
+1. I am not by nature a violent person and one of my personal nightmares is shooting a kid by accident. Like he broke into what he thought was uncle joes apartment but the key wasn't under the mat like joe said so he came in the window.

Having said that, I feel fairly confident that I will never hold a person at gunpoint, not least of all because no matter the circumstances since I have no detain and arrest autority I might be guilty of kidnapping. As the young marshal said in that elmore lenard book "The Hot Kid", if I draw my gun I shoot to kill. I don't draw it unless I plan to shoot it, I don't shoot it unless I plan to hit where I aim, and I aim COM. Of course I don't shoot to kill, I shoot to stop the threat, if someone dies as a consequence that is just the law of unintended consequences in action.
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Old August 30, 2007, 10:53 AM   #42
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If you hear the bump in the night, call 911. STAY PUT. Arm yourself, and wait.
I respectfully disagree.

There are simply not enough cops in the nation to investigate every "bump in the night".
If everyone dialed 911 whenever they heard an unusual noise in their home then the average waiting time for a cop to arrive would be about 48 hours!

I say that if you truely consider yourself to be the "king of the castle", then man up and defend it.
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Old August 30, 2007, 10:58 AM   #43
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If you hear the bump in the night, call 911. STAY PUT. Arm yourself, and wait.
+1 This is EXACTLY the correct response !

Quote:
If you have children, teach them to either stay in their rooms, or if they're close enough to your room, to come to yours. If they're old enough, and responsible enough, consider arming THEM, with explicit instructions to hold fire until they can identify that the person coming into their room is NOT one of you.
+1 My kids keep their doors closed and are armed, we even have a "code word" for trouble or all-clear.

Quote:
Make sure that you call 911 immediately. Identify yourself, tell the dispatcher what is happening, describe everyone in your house that SHOULD be there, and tell them who is armed.

STAY ON THE LINE WITH DISPATCH until responding officers arrive.
Ditto ! it is also wise to inform them which rooms you are in.

Quote:
Folks, trust me: you do NOT ever want to be in a situation where you are going through a darkened house or building, looking for someone who may want to KILL you. It's not fun.
AHHH, the voice of reason, clear as a Bell.
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Old August 30, 2007, 10:59 AM   #44
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You do NOT want your last coherent sight in this world to be seeing the person who killed you headed toward your wife or children.
+5


This is a great thread, however, I thought I'd chime in with something a bit different:

IMO, we all might have a slight tendency towards being one dimensional, from time to time. This is one of those cases. One thing I know is security, and it doesn't come from merely being able to shoot. I've got callouses on my hands from thousands upon thousands of draws, and F2F drills. I STILL don't rely solely on my shooting skills to keep my family safe. If you're relying on your John Wayne gunslinging, as your sole line of defense, without regards to other aspects, then you are out of balance, and guilty of having a "one-dimensional moment".




The reality is that when protecting yourself, there are a few things you can do to increase your level of safety, that rely much less on weapons, and much more on your head. Here are a few suggestions:

1.) Have a plan. Think about everything from your family, to avenues of approach, to a house- fire, a rally point outside in case of emergency, etc. This is the first step.

2.) "Harden" yourself as a target. Start with outside your home. Do you have a bunch of crap in your yard that people can hide behind? Got the Nova still up on blocks by your windows? If so, you might be inviting trouble. Clear spaces by your front, side, and rear doors. Don't leave 5-gallon buckets by your windows. Visually and physically inspect your property EVERY NIGHT, and lock all appropriate latches. Locked windows and doors will stop 90% of home invaders. Make a nightly routine, as you turn down for the evening, and SECURE YOUR PROPERTY. That includes vehicles.

3.) Read the law, or otherwise get informed. You'd be surprised how willing the local sheriff will be to educate you on your rights. Know what your limitations are, and integrate those limits into your home safety plan.

4.) Know where your weapon is, and where the ammunition is- and keep them accessible, yet secure. There's no point in protecting your family, if you are going to leave your pistol out carelessly, so your 5-year old can pick it up, and knock off his little sister.

5.) Keep a phone by your bed. Believe it or not, so many people will wait until a danger presents itself before going off to find the phone. In the age of deep couches, late movies, and portable phones, you don't want to be stumbling around in the dark when you need that phone. Think it through, and incorporate COMMUNICATIONS into your plan.

6.) Develop a "duress" message. For example, if someone is being held at gunpoint, or they are otherwise in trouble, develop a message that can be delivered covertly, by phone, to let you know. For my family, the duress would be something like:

"Hi honey/dad. Everything is fine. Just working on my Chinese language project"


In such a case, I know that my family is not working on any Chinese language project, therefore they are trying to alert me that they are in trouble. The criminal would be none the wiser. This might be applicable by phone, etc. If your family routine has patterns that might be exploited by a criminal, see if a duress situation might be good for you.

7.) Lighting and Visibility. Obviously, if your place is very well lit, you are more likely to be safe, than if you leave numerous dark places for a criminal to hide. Try installing inexpensive motion-sensing flood lights that would normally remain off, unless someone enters your property. The sudden burst from a flood light will scare off many would-be thieves, and send them searching for a "softer" target.

8.) Consider a pet dog. If your floodlights fail, and you are fall-down drunk, your dog will still hear an intruder and bark, alerting both you AND them.




These simple steps can provide you with a more complete security plan than just "draw the ole' Mossberg". While I am a fierce weapons enthusiast, and a competent shooter, I draw on the knowledge that the majority of thieves aren't looking for confrontation- at least initially. By making your home as uninviting for an intruder as possible, you can take away the only two things he has: The element of surprise, and the ability to move undetected.
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Old August 30, 2007, 11:06 AM   #45
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JoeBlackSpade:

Excellent points all.

I'll add to this one in particular though:
Quote:
5.) Keep a phone by your bed. Believe it or not, so many people will wait until a danger presents itself before going off to find the phone. In the age of deep couches, late movies, and portable phones, you don't want to be stumbling around in the dark when you need that phone. Think it through, and incorporate COMMUNICATIONS into your plan.
A lot of people, me included, change cell phones every couple of years. Those old cell phones still have a use though. Keep one in your bedroom so you can dial 911 if your landline is disabled either by an intruder or technical/weather difficulties.

Even a cell phone without a service plan attached to it is capable of dialing 911. Keep one of your old ones in your bedroom with a power cord plugging it in.

Edited to add: We also have one of those "old fashioned" corded telephones in our master bedroom.
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Old August 30, 2007, 11:20 AM   #46
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Why would I ever go investigate a bump in the night? That's what my police are paid to do. If someone is in my house, they are an immediate threat to my life. Doesn't matter whether it is the drunken kid next door or some crackhead.

In AZ, I do not have the legal (nor IMO moral) requirement to warn them or give them commands. As stated several times above, the best policy is to stay in your safe room, dial 911, stay on the phone until police arrive. If someone who has already entered my home then enters my bedroom, they are definately a threat and I am not going to try to "control" them. I am not trained (as an LEO although I am physically capable) to restrain suspects, nor am I required to. Nor would I really want to get into a situation where that happened.

But to answer Bill's question:
KNOW YOUR STATE'S LAWS!
If he doesn't comply, shoot. Non compliance is a direct threat to your life. How do you know he is turning to run and not turning to draw an unseen weapon? If he comes toward you, clearly that is a threat.
If he complies:
Have him prone out on the floor face down arms out to the sides. Then you move to a differnt location where he cannot see you but you can still cover him.

Lastly:
KNOW YOUR STATE'S LAWS!
In many states, you are shielded from civil suit if your shooting is justified. So, please quit making those blanket statements about losing everything you own to the suspect's survivors. That is not necessarily true.

+1 to Joe and Ranting's posts.
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Old August 30, 2007, 11:35 AM   #47
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Why would I ever go investigate a bump in the night? That's what my police are paid to do.
Again, in case you missed it before....

There are simply not enough cops in the nation to investigate every "bump in the night".
If everyone dialed 911 whenever they heard an unusual noise in their home then the average waiting time for a cop to arrive would be about 48 hours!


It's the same problem when eveyone calls the EMS for every little booboo and owwie.
The EMS is busy attending and hauling folks with minor injuries while others are dying of serious medical conditions.
Just last week we had a woman call 911 for a leg injury.
Once the EMT's got there it turned out that the woman had broken her toe!
While those EMT's were busy attending her toe injury someone else was probably having a heart attack!

Again, don't abuse the 911 system by calling the police for every little odd noise you hear in your home.
Be a man and deal with it yourself.
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Old August 30, 2007, 11:45 AM   #48
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Refer to original Thread topic if confused about my post. Yes Capitulate is a big word
Quote:
My apologies. Sometimes I forget that many of the members of this forum may not be LEO or Vet. I mistake many yrs of training for common sense and that is where I have gone wrong here. I recognize difference of opinion as a right that each of us has and to force mine upon others is usually not to their benefit or mine. I will try not to be so argumentative in my future posts.
Condescention is nothing more than tactical name calling. It won't make your point more valid. If you insist that those who view an intruder who has broken into their home as a definite threat are mistaken, then disagree. That's what the forum is about. Calling them homicidal is underestimating them, and pegging them as closed-minded. Keep it civil, and they may be on your side in the next thread. This is exactly what started the problem on the tac light thread.

Quote:
SilentArmy, you LEO? If so, at least you have experince on how to handle those situations..so really you're a teacher, and everyone else is your students!
:barf:
Sorry for the hypocracy, but that had to be done.

Does anyone disagree that the BG should be able to flee? Not many if at all.
Does anyone disagree with the idea that engagement is a last resort/life saving only move? Not me, let the cops do their job. I'm busy making sure my family is safe. That's enough to think about, and my family is worth more than my posessions.
Does anyone disagree that noone has any right to break into their home? Breaking into my home is a bad idea. I'm not going hunting for them, but we'll most likely meet up. Let me make it abundantly clear that I will protect life above all.
The second worse thing that could ever happen to me is to have to shoot another human being. The worst thing would be not stopping them from hurting someone I love. If that makes me somehow "homicidal" in anyone's opinion, then I recant; call me all the names you want.
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Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.
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Old August 30, 2007, 12:26 PM   #49
Yellowfin
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Join Date: January 7, 2007
Location: West Upstate NY
Posts: 2,303
Quote:
What is your response when he starts apologizing with the "wrong house" excuse?
"You're damn right it is!" or "That's YOUR problem."
Quote:
Would your response be different if he started talking about the trouble you'd be in for "shooting an unarmed man"?
"That doesn't concern YOU, now does it?"
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Old August 30, 2007, 12:41 PM   #50
Lurper
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Join Date: March 21, 2006
Posts: 943
Quote:
Again, don't abuse the 911 system by calling the police for every little odd noise you hear in your home.
It's not abuse. It is their job and what our tax dollars pay for. Adovcating that civilians clear their house whenever they suspect someone may be inside is fool's advice. Ignoring the fact that every professional organization advocates the idea of retreating to a safe room and calling the police, it just lacks common sense! Most people have neither the experience nor the training to do it safely. Your greatest weapon is your brain, use it!

Quote:
Be a man and deal with it yourself.
Some think with their ego, some with their brain. Even with my level of skill and training, I will not clear my home. It isn't the smart thing to do. That is what the police get paid to do.
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