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Old August 29, 2007, 12:07 AM   #1
Bill Akins
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Watercooled ruger 10-22 tripod mounted

(Be sure to scroll to bottom and check out pics, links for pics and video test firing links.)


Beat ammo prices & still have tripod mounted fun


With 308 up to .45 and .50 cents a round, shooting is getting expensive. If someone takes their browning 1917 or 1919 to a mg shoot and fires a few hours they can easily eat up 20 belts of 100rds each, that's 2000 rds. At .45 cents a rd that's $900.00 and at .50 cents a rd that's $1000.00 they just threw downrange with nothing to take home to show for it other than the fun they had in one afternoon's shooting.

That may be ok for some folks, but suspose someone could show people how to have almost the same amount of fun with a mg style tripod mounted semi auto gun that could either utilize the trigger as normally or with a crankfire and still shoot 2000 rds for a total ammo cost of $36.00 would that interest people?

My air cooled and water cooled (aluminum with some steel) mini browning style dress up stock prototypes for the ruger 10-22 work by using the trigger normally or with an accessory crankfire device. Aside from one model being truly watercooled (I use antifreeze) they are dress up stocks only and do not have anything to do with changing the cyclic rate of fire of the ruger 10-22. The 10-22 is totally unmodified and is semi auto only. By attaching the bmf activator crankfire device manufactured by bmf and not me, they can fire legally and unregulated like a gatling gun. Bmf has manufactured their crankfire device since 1981 and have been approved by the BATFE since that time. My dress up stocks are over 26 inches long and use an over 16 inch threaded bull barrel. They will fit on the full size M2 tripods and the 1928 tripods as well as other 1919/1917 full size tripods. They utilize an unmodified ruger 10-22 as the host firearm.

Actually they are not smaller semi auto exact copy versions of a browning or any one type of mg. They are my own designs that are intended to resemble without being a copy of, some mg's such as my air cooled one resembling a browning 1919a4, but the watercooled one resembles not only the browning 1917 but also the maxim/vickers and other water cooled machine guns of the early 20th century. I call them my mini browning ruger 10-22 dress up stocks because it would take too long to call them...."my mini ruger 10-22 dress up stocks that resemble some particular mg's while also resembling a family of other watercooled ones". Lol. I still haven't come up with a name that aptly describes them in a short sentence.

I can change to different full size tripods quickly and easily. My adaptor for attaching them to full size tripods is removable from the dress up stock. I can fire by pulling the trigger normally or by installing an accessory crankfire device like the bmf activator. So if I lived in a state that does not allow rapid fire crankfire devices, I could still enjoy this dress up stock by pulling the trigger normally. I can replace any worn out ruger 10-22 parts inexpensively and easily from a host of suppliers. I can use any banana mag or the MWG 50 rd mag. It requires no modification to my host ruger 10-22.

The air cooled model was my first attempt. It came out with a fake shell receiver that has a bit of a long "tongue" projecting from the bottom front of the fake shell receiver that I am not happy with the looks of. This will be changed and will look like the watercooled model's fake shell receiver on my yet to be built 3rd model.

My third yet to be built model will incorporate improvements and changes I learned from making the first two protos. It will standardize the shell receiver and enable a quick change between a water jacket and the perforated air cooling shroud so I can change it from a working water cooled that uses a ladder sight, to an air cooled that uses an antiaircraft style spider sight in a few minutes.
The air cooled model uses a windage drift adjustable (by tapping it left or right in its dovetail) M60 d rear sight that flips up and down, with the tall front sight being my design with a bead that screws out for elevation. The watercooled model uses a design of my own for its front sight that closely resembles a browning 1917 front sight while the rear sight on the watercooled is my design for modifying a 1917 enfield rifle's ladder sight to be able to effect windage. It also flips up and down under spring tension so you can use the battle sight arperture, or the ladder arperture.

These are just my own personal dress up stock prototypes for now but I would like to know what the firearms community's opinion is of them in case I decide to produce them in the future and that is why I am posting. These are not affiliated with Akins Group Inc in any way and I will not comment on any questions or comments related to Akins Group Inc or their product the Akins accelerator and I respectfully ask that no one hijack this thread to do so.

As to what any projected retail price will be if I did produce these dress up stocks, at this point I actually have no projection for that.
These are not in production, not on the shelf and I am not taking orders at this time. They are not for sale at this time and this is not an advertisement. I am simply asking for opinions from the firearms community on what they think of the concept and what I have created so far.


Here's pics and a link to videos of test firings. Sorry for the lighting in the videos, the indoor range was not well lit. Will take better outside videos soon. All opinions accepted for consideration. Please keep in mind the above features it accomplishes when stating your opinion and how it differs from features accomplished with any similar system.

Link to video test firings.
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/560343189dTxnsb

Link to still photos.
http://community.webshots.com/album/560342901vXuprF


All finished except for rear sight height spacer. MWG 50 rd teardrop mag in gun



Rear sight height spacer completed & mounted. Watercooled totally finished


Another pic of rear sight height spacer finished. Watercooled model completed


Another shot of the same.


Prototype #1 air cooled finished. Very first attempt and first model made. Foldable & driftable M60d rear spider sight installed in shroud's dovetail base. Front sight my own design, bead unscrews for elevation. Future models will not have "tongue" projecting from fake shell receiver bottom front, and will be able to swap from air cooled to water cooled in a few minutes. BMF activator crankfire not installed in this photo.


Air cooled mounted on tripod adaptor and on M2 tripod with 25rd mag inserted. Front sight not yet made at that time and rear sight not installed yet & just sitting on fake shell receiver to give an idea. BMF activator crankfire installed.
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Old August 29, 2007, 01:16 AM   #2
SCREAMIII2006
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Watch out red baron!

Now if you just had a replica Sopwith Camel to go with those.......
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Old August 29, 2007, 01:45 AM   #3
Bill Akins
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You may laugh, but I plan on installing two in a flight simulator for range shooting

Funny you should mention that. Another one of my passions is flying. I used to fly real aircraft but now I fly flight simulators, chiefly online combat flight sims. I researched all about homebuilt flight simulators and saw the ones that are hydraulic and expensive. Then I came across the joyrider. It is a passive simulator. That means it moves the entire cockpit with you in it totally from the motion you impart to the joystick without any electrical servos or hydraulics. It works on balance and leverage. I want to build one of these and install two of my watercooled ruger 10-22's onto the top of it just like a WW1 fighter plane and connect the two bmf activator crankfire units in my trigger guards together with a piece of metal tubing so I can crankfire both guns at once with my left hand while controlling my aiming and the movable flight simulator cockpit with my right hand on the joystick. Now before you think I'm totally nuts, go to these links and look at the joyrider passive flight simulator and the different versions of it people have built. You can make it out of aluminum tubing or even pvc pipe! Check out all the links at the below sites I've given you links for. It would make for many fun days at the range. Sure would be fun to use to shoot down those remote control airplanes they fly very low across the berms at some of the big machine gun shoots like at Knob Creek Kentucky and Big Sandy Arizona to see if anyone can hit them. Not kidding. They do that. Few people can hit them.

Main joyrider site
http://www.acesim.com/main.html

Builder's versions of their joyriders
http://www.acesim.com/ready.html

The "Dreamflyer Ultimate Joyrider
http://www.flightcontrolsimulator.com/
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Old August 29, 2007, 07:21 AM   #4
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What fun! I love this kind of creativity. And welcome to TFL.
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Old August 29, 2007, 01:02 PM   #5
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Very nice indeed.

If only you could hook the BMF cranks to a motor (which would be -so- illegal it hurts I think) and work out some sort of hopper feed.

With .22LR it wouldn't be too painful on the pocket to be dumping whole boxes of ammo into the coffee grinder
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Old August 29, 2007, 01:24 PM   #6
SCREAMIII2006
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Hey I wasn't knocking you, In fact you have some real talent in the shop.

Those are nice looking replicas.
I wish I had the time,the place and skills to do something like that.

Maxims are frowned upon in the burbs.
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Old August 29, 2007, 03:02 PM   #7
Bill Akins
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[Abndoc Senior Member wrote....
"What fun! I love this kind of creativity. And welcome to TFL."]

Thanks Abndoc. Bill


[ NCLivingBrit Member wrote....
Very nice indeed. If only you could hook the BMF cranks to a motor (which would be -so- illegal it hurts I think) and work out some sort of hopper feed.
With .22LR it wouldn't be too painful on the pocket to be dumping whole boxes of ammo into the coffee grinder]

Thanks NCLivingBrit.
I have considered turning it upside down and using a gravity fed hopper ala early gatling gun style. But the rim on the 22 cartridge creates feeding problems when stacked in a hopper without a spring to hold tension on them, unless they are stacked one on top of the other in a vertical line, and with the uppermost cartridge's rim always behind the below cartridge. Dropping them into a hopper would not insure that alignment like it does when you load them into a magazine. Then when the rim of the uppermost cartridge slipped over and in front of the rim of the cartridge under it, it would jam when feeding. Also the hopper would have to be banana curved because of the rims. Just not viable with the 22's rim. Would work great with a rimless 22 rimfire. Always wondered why they didn't come out with that. Just like a rimless 45 acp, which has a rim but is called rimless because it don't protrude beyond the case diameter. Attaching an electric motor to the crankfire is definately illegal.

I have also considered that upside down style system for a recoil operated semi auto 20 gauge gatling crank style operated watercooled shotgun and I don't think there would be any rim problems like with the .22 cartridge (Staying away from the 12 gauge over 50 bore destructive device trap). I don't think there would be a problem loading those big cartridge shells from a vertical gravity fed hopper, but I would have to closely inspect their rims before saying that for sure. Loaded with 00 buck that would be some tripod mounted crank operated firepower. I might just attempt that one day.
Another thing I have considered is two ruger 10-22's side by side sharing the same waterjacket for cooling both barrels that would look like the Gardner crank operated gun of the late 19th and early 20th century that competed with the gatling. I would need a shell deflector for the left gun though to keep it from ejecting shells into the right gun's side, and would deflect the left guns emptly shells downward. Might attempt that one day too. Bill.


[ SCREAMIII2006 Senior Member wrote....
Hey I wasn't knocking you, In fact you have some real talent in the shop.
Those are nice looking replicas.
I wish I had the time,the place and skills to do something like that.
Maxims are frowned upon in the burbs.]

Thanks ScreamIII2006. I didn't think you were knocking me at all. It's just that some of my ideas and inventions might seem a bit outlandish and extreme so sometimes I am almost self deprecating and preempting such as when I said...."Now before you think I'm totally nuts". Bill.

Bye the way, I had to copy and paste the above replies from folks into this message to get their quotes. Is there a "quote" button here so I can respond with it automatically showing the quote of the person I am responding to? I use the "quote" button at other sites but I did not see it here.
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Old August 29, 2007, 03:21 PM   #8
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Bill,

Excellent job. I think it has great potential, but I have two constructive comments.

First, I know thats just a prototype, but if you get into production I'd definitely try to smooth out the surfaces. The finish looks rough - not like the clean milled steel sideplates of a 1919 or 1917. Second, is the same problem I have with the MG42 dress up kits; the mag hanging out the bottom. Perhaps you could attach a wooden belt box to the left sideplate (as would be on a 1917), rotate the gun in the chasis 90 degrees (so it ejects to the bottom and the mag would be on the left) and use the belt box to conceal the mag. You could then run a small section of cloth belt of .22 (from Lakeside) on the top of the belt box to an attachment point on the sideplate to make it look as if its actualy feeding from a belt.
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Old August 29, 2007, 03:26 PM   #9
Bill Akins
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Thanks Shaggy, glad you like it.

That may or may not be the finish for the final production models. The reason I was using and considering the wrinkle finish was so that the average person could easily touch up their finish if it gets scratched. Since these are aluminum, I had only 3 choices. Anodize, powder coat or paint. The average person cannot touch up scratched anodizing or powder coating, but they could easily touch up wrinkle paint. But the final production finish is not written in stone yet and I will give it further consideration. That's a good idea you have for hiding the mag by concealing it in a fake ammo box and turning the gun sideways. Might make it a bit more trouble to change mags though. I am working on a design for a beltfeed for the ruger 10-22 that would not entail modifying the receiver. Hopefully that will improve the looks and definately the capacity. Might take a bit of time though, I'm pretty involved with just getting what I have into production. Bill.
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Old August 29, 2007, 03:30 PM   #10
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omg that's amazing, could have a market but not here in NY. Grrr why can't we have flash surpresors on our water cooled crankfed rugers!!...
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Old August 29, 2007, 05:29 PM   #11
Bill Akins
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[biglabsrule Senior Member wrote..."omg that's amazing, could have a market but not here in NY. Grrr why can't we have flash surpresors on our water cooled crankfed rugers!!"


Hi biglabsrule.

Thanks, glad you like them. If it is illegal for you to have a flash suppressor on your ruger 10-22's in N.Y., then it would be a simple matter to replace the flash suppressor with just a thread protecting nut available at a number of sites including tactical innovations inc. I could have just as easily used a thread protecting nut. I just used the flash suppressor because it was threaded correctly and I thought it improved the looks and made it look a bit like a vickers machine gun muzzle booster housing. As far as I know, the only states that preclude bmf activator crankfire gatling gun style devices are Minn and Calif. So if you used a nut instead of the flash suppressor in N.Y. you should be ok.
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Old August 29, 2007, 06:21 PM   #12
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Hi Bill;
Very creative. Sorry I don't have a Sopwith Camel but I do have severa;l of my pro-type "Dream Flyers". I lost control of my company and will not be building any more and I have a couple of units in various stage of completion. If you want to mount a pair of "fifties" on them they would be cool. Interested, give me an shout. docs@shaw.ca
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Old August 29, 2007, 11:41 PM   #13
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Question for you, how well do the 50 round teardrop drum magazines work? Nice work all around on the guns.
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Old August 30, 2007, 02:46 AM   #14
Bill Akins
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Crosshair Senior Member wrote..."Question for you, how well do the 50 round teardrop drum magazines work? Nice work all around on the guns."

Thanks Crosshair. Glad you like them. The 50 rd MWG (also known as "Mitchel mag") teardrop mag works fine for me. The only weak thing about it is its rear cover plastic latch. It is just a tab of plastic on the cover that bends to fit into a slot on the mag body. Mine broke the first time I tried to open the cover. I keep it together with a rubberband though and it works fine that way. Sometimes I have even fired it without the rubber band and just relied on the friction of the closeness of the cover fitting snugly to keep it from coming apart. No problems with feeding. If they put a small toolbox style latch on it instead of that weak plastic tab it would be perfect. I plan to get a small latch and epoxy one of its sides to the mag body and the other side to the cover so I can have a reliable latch instead of using my rubber band. I suggested this to the manufacturer when I called them. They offered to replace it but the latch is destined to break and it would just happen again, so I kept mine and use a rubber band until I can epoxy a small latch onto it.

Go to my very first post in this thread, scroll down until you see the link for videos of me test firing my prototypes and look for the video of me firing the 1919 style one outside. That is the MWG teardrop mag I'm using. Rarely any problems with it. Usually stoppages are the ammo itself not the mag with the MWG. The only three 50rd choices for the 10-22 you have are the ramline double stack mag which frequently jams (I have one), the tommy gun style drum Pro mag, and the MWG teardrop mag. Of the three the MWG is the best all round in my opinion. The pro mag had feeding problems at first and I have heard they have fixed that, but it is much more bulky than the teardrop MWG for the same capacity and will not work in my tripod mounted guns because of its size. What we really need is a belt feed. I'll be working on it.
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Old August 30, 2007, 02:49 AM   #15
Bill Akins
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doch202 Junior Member wrote..."Hi Bill; Very creative. Sorry I don't have a Sopwith Camel but I do have severa;l of my pro-type "Dream Flyers". I lost control of my company and will not be building any more and I have a couple of units in various stage of completion. If you want to mount a pair of "fifties" on them they would be cool. Interested, give me an shout. docs@shaw.ca"


Hi doch202. Thanks. What a coincidence you being here! Sending you an e mail.
Bill.
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Old August 30, 2007, 05:35 AM   #16
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should there not be some type of pressure relief valve or such

on the water tank? I'm sure I'm missing it...but you really don't want to be heating that water up, even with little 22 rounds going through a barrel unless the expanding water has some place to go.
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Old August 30, 2007, 06:45 AM   #17
Bill Akins
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blume357 Senior Member wrote..."should there not be some type of pressure relief valve or such on the water tank?"

Glad you asked that Blume. There is. It is on the left front bottom of the water jacket. You can't see it in any of the photos I posted though because of the angle I shot them. Here's a few pics that do show it. It is actually a new type drain plug for an air compressor air tank that instead of having a wingnut to unscrew to release pressure from an air compressor tank, it just has the knurled brass non removable cap with a valve inside and a hole in the cap that does not totally unscrew but just loosens and stays on. By cracking it open just a bit it will allow pressure to exit but the fluid will not drain out because of the vacuum in the waterjacket that will not allow the fluid to drain out unless you first unscrew the top filler plug so air can enter. It could also have a hose slipped over it going to a steam box or small auto heater core radiator. Bill.






Last edited by Bill Akins; August 30, 2007 at 08:36 AM.
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Old August 30, 2007, 07:02 AM   #18
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Quote:
Is there a "quote" button here
Yes, there is. Copy and paste your desired quote to the " Reply to Thread" box.

Highlight the quote again.

Above and right is a symbol that looks like one of those talking balloons from a comic strip. It reads "Wrap [Quote] tags around selected text."

Press this and you are done. Remember, the text must be highlighted for this to work.
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Old August 30, 2007, 07:29 AM   #19
Bill Akins
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I messed this one up but couldn't find how to delete it so I edited it to ask this question. How can I totally delete a post? I looked under "Go Advance" but couldn't find a delete post section.

Last edited by Bill Akins; August 30, 2007 at 08:03 AM.
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Old August 30, 2007, 07:46 AM   #20
Bill Akins
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Quote:
"Is there a "quote" button here?"
Yes, there is. Copy and paste your desired quote to the " Reply to Thread" box. Highlight the quote again.
Above and right is a symbol that looks like one of those talking balloons from a comic strip. It reads "Wrap tags around selected text." Press this and you are done. Remember, the text must be highlighted for this to work.
Quote window working ok now. Now just need to know how to totally delete post if I want to. Thanks.
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Old August 30, 2007, 12:47 PM   #21
djturnz
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There is a kit to turn two 10-22's into a gattling gun. I think it's about $400 plus the guns.

Did I miss the point where you told us how much one of these costs?
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Old August 30, 2007, 12:50 PM   #22
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This would be really fun with a tracer loaded about every fourth round or so.


could you use one of these as a magazine/ hopper?
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Old August 30, 2007, 04:59 PM   #23
Bill Akins
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djturnz Member
There is a kit to turn two 10-22's into a gattling gun. I think it's about $400 plus the guns.

Did I miss the point where you told us how much one of these costs?

Those double ruger gatling kits you mentioned, are not water cooled. They also require you to buy two rugers instead of one and they are not made to fit or interchange between full size 1919/1917 tripods. They are also not legal in some states such as Calif and Minn that preclude any crank operated rapid fire devices. The crank operation and rapid fire device is integral to that kit, whereas you can elect to install or not install a crankfire device on my design so that you could use my design without the crankfire device if you lived in one of those states.

In my first post at this thread I stated that at this time I was not in production yet and that I did not have a projection for retail costs at this time.
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Old August 30, 2007, 05:05 PM   #24
Bill Akins
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Quote:
djturnzMember
This would be really fun with a tracer loaded about every fourth round or so.
Could you use one of these as a hopper?
No, I am familiar with that device and it would not work as a hopper to feed a ruger 10-22
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Old August 31, 2007, 07:16 AM   #25
Leif
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When is the Lewis gun version coming out?

Seriously, very impressive. Welcome.
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