The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 21, 2007, 08:57 PM   #1
Dtmoss14
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2007
Posts: 47
Effective range of .223?

When does it start to falter?
Dtmoss14 is offline  
Old August 21, 2007, 09:14 PM   #2
mountainclmbr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2007
Location: On a mountain in the Colorado Rockies
Posts: 966
The velocity can hold up to above speed of sound out to 500 yards or so. I think it depends on the rifle for the accuracy part of the equation. My Mini-14 is only good for 6 inches at 100 yards with 55 gr FMJ and 3-4 inches for 75gr. That makes it only good for 100-200 yards depending on load.

There are High-Power match rifles used out to 500-600 yards in the AR-15 configuration. Never fired one of these, but it seems that it is more the limitations of the individual rifle than the round.
__________________
"The unfettered free market has been the most radically destructive force in American life in the last generation." - Hillary Clinton
mountainclmbr is offline  
Old August 21, 2007, 10:13 PM   #3
Trapper L
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2006
Location: South Texas
Posts: 804
If you take a 55 gr Sierra HPBT and run it out at 3000'ps it has just about 1090lbs of energy. At 200 yds it has shed about 1000'ps and has about half of the energy. At 300 yds it is moving at 1650'ps prox and has energy around the 350 lbs mark. Depending on what you are shooting at determines if that is acceptable. For rabbits, 300 yds is acceptable. For deer size animals, I'd stay under 150 yds or expect to lose wounded deer. Putting the bullet on the target is one thing and the 223 is quite capable of doing that at yardage. Reliably killing an animal is a different thing.
Trapper L is offline  
Old August 21, 2007, 10:53 PM   #4
Dtmoss14
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2007
Posts: 47
Target shooting a Savage 10FP
Dtmoss14 is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 01:36 AM   #5
MisterPX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2006
Location: Amerika's Doyleland
Posts: 809
What are you shooting at? Effective range against paper is a whole different animal than againt bad guys.
MisterPX is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 02:40 AM   #6
120mm
Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 32
That's a fairly complex issue. I'm assuming you are interested in the "break point" where the .223 really tears up people versus just makes a .22 cal hole in flesh. As the .223 needs velocity (approx. 2700 fps) to do the majority of it's damage, here is a table I stole from "The Ammo Oracle" which specializes in all things .223.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#fragrange

Read the link if you are interested.

20" Barrel M193 (55 gr.) 200m M855 (62gr) 150m
16" Barrel M193 150m M855 95m
14.5" Barrel M193 100m M855 50m
11.5" Barrel M193 45m M855 15m
120mm is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 07:57 AM   #7
als54
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 215
I think the military lists some were around 400 meters (from a M-16)... IMHO that's kind of a bit way out there?
__________________
Glock 17 Gen 3
Glock 26 Gen 4
S&W 642
Taurus PT145 Millennium PRO
als54 is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 09:19 AM   #8
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 1,672
If your just target shooting your Savage, you should have fun and then tell us. You should have good results at 300 and with the right conditions do OK to 600yds or so. But thats paper, the good thing is it's easy to clean.
jmorris is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 09:46 AM   #9
lilgdad
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1
Many of my army buddies say effective combat range for man size target is "no more" than 200 meters, meaning less. Don't know if that helps but my $0.02.
lilgdad is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 10:57 AM   #10
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,596
It'd be sorta helpful to have some idea of the usage and intended target...

SFAIK, a .223 ain't effective on whales, worth a darn...

, Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 11:15 AM   #11
gedenke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2007
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 369
In my personal experience, with an M-16, I was able to put 10 rounds in the chest of a man size target at 500yds. Not sure exactly what my group was, just that I hit the black. But then again, that was a 5.56 (which I've read is dimensionally identical to a .223, but loaded for higher pressure), and I was having a good day.
__________________
There's an art...to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss!
gedenke is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 11:32 AM   #12
davlandrum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Lane County Oregon
Posts: 2,547
Quote:
Many of my army buddies say effective combat range for man size target is "no more" than 200 meters
Wow - I retired from the Army and I never heard that...

Did they mean they couldn't hit a man-sized target at more than 200 meters?

Would I expect a 5.56 to "one-shot, dead-right-there" an enemy threat at 300 meters? No, but if I hit him center mass, I sure ruined his day to say the least.

And 300 meters with standard issue sights was do-able even with the M16A1 with the old style ammo. By do-able, I mean I was able to do it consistently even in Basic Training with no prior rifle shooting experience.
davlandrum is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 11:36 AM   #13
The Tourist
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2005
Posts: 2,348
Admittedly, my memory on this is fuzzy, but isn't there a "NATO spec" on this very topic?

It's something about the ability to puncture a regulation helmet at 500 yards.

That assumes that not only does the round have to have a certain down-range power, but it also has to be able to hit a helmet.

You guys remember this?

Edit: This might help.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m193orm855
The Tourist is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 03:56 PM   #14
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 11,536
Quote:
Many of my army buddies say effective combat range for man size target is "no more" than 200 meters, meaning less.
Be serious. The effective range of a 5.56mm Nato round out of a M16A1 was 500 meters back in 1976, so it hasn't gotten shorter. If anything, with the new heavier bullets it has gotten longer. But for sake of argument, let's say 500 meters.

For varminting it's about 350 yds, for target work, about 600 yds. All depends on intended use.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 04:36 PM   #15
STLRN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 1,163
There have been troops that have killed people out to around 800 meters shooting 5.56. Much of the problem of lack of "kill" had allot more to do with a lack of hitting. The standard issue M855 has QC issues and as Crane has shown at around 500 meters even a center hold on a target may not yield a hit under controlled conditions, let alone you through in the variables of shooting in combat. Mk262 has shown good effects on combat even in cases where the impact was well beyond where it fragments, so even a through and through 22 caliber hole in someones chest can be quite effective.
__________________
God truly fights on the side with the best artillery
STLRN is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 07:12 PM   #16
hank327
Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 87
As I recall from my time in the Army, the maximum effective range of the M16A1 with the 55 grn M193 ball round was 460 meters.
hank327 is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 08:53 PM   #17
tbtrout
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 234
500 meters at a point target and 850 meters at an area target. That is what the PMI's at Parris Island drilled into our heads.
tbtrout is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 09:55 PM   #18
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 5,588
Quote:
There have been troops that have killed people out to around 800 meters shooting 5.56. Much of the problem of lack of "kill" had allot more to do with a lack of hitting.
I think you hit this one center mass.
I've killed coyotes at 300+ yards with a .223. They weren't always a bang flop but some of them were.
taylorce1 is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 10:10 PM   #19
USMCG_HMX1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2006
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbtrout
500 meters at a point target and 850 meters at an area target. That is what the PMI's at Parris Island drilled into our heads.

+1 with tbtrout, only mine were screaming it to us on Edson Range ... which was a meters course so they gave us extra points. I had expert in the bag and the bonus points weren't needed.



Kris
USMCG_HMX1 is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 10:27 PM   #20
piercfh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2006
Location: Central Alabama
Posts: 183
In the group we shoot with a guys son shoots out to 1000 with his Remington 700 in .223. Everyone shoots .308 except him, and the little rifle hangs with the everything else. I'll admit the kid shoots way better than I do from 100 to 1000 so .223 is definitely effective at punching paper. I'm pretty sure he's loading his own too!
piercfh is offline  
Old August 22, 2007, 10:43 PM   #21
ARmasterzach
Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2007
Location: Perrin Texas
Posts: 83
How much would a 223 drop every 100 yards? I was trying to hit a steel plate about 1'x2' about 400yds with my ar with a red dot and I couldnt even tell if I was getting close.
__________________
I cant carry my pocket knife to school caus its considered to be a weapon, but a brand new sharpened pencil is perfectly ok.
I dont need either though cause im the biggest guy at my school.
ARmasterzach is offline  
Old August 23, 2007, 08:56 AM   #22
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 1,672
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculati...traj_card.html

AR go to the above page and enter in your load information and print out the card at the end, you'll be set for next time. FWIW 400 is 26"+- and 700yds with a 223 is like a 22lr at 300yds (153" +- yeah thats 13 feet).
jmorris is offline  
Old August 23, 2007, 10:21 AM   #23
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,596
Don't quote me: My memory has it that after Vietnam, the Army started testing for a bullet that would penetrate the then-new Kevlar helmet at a range of either 500 or 600 meters; don't recall which.

I believe that's when the 63-grain bullet began to be used.

Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old August 23, 2007, 12:01 PM   #24
joeranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 375
I just bought a bunch of 68gr black hills ammo. Even though the velocity is a little lower, it should push the range a little, right? (vs, 55gr and 62gr)
joeranger is offline  
Old August 23, 2007, 12:09 PM   #25
MythBuster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2007
Posts: 629
AR's shooting the .223 round with 90 and 95 grain bullets are winning the 1,000 yard service rifle matches now.
MythBuster is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12560 seconds with 7 queries