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Old August 12, 2007, 11:25 PM   #1
lear jet 45
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FN five seveN

need info on the FN five and seveN gun is this gun as good as they say it is??

thanks burt
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Old August 13, 2007, 12:29 AM   #2
kozak6
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Good in which respect? If you were referring to armor piercing, the answer is no because that ammo is unavailible to civilians.

Ballistically, it's about on par with the .22 magnum fired out of a rifle.

Ammo is hard to find and costs ~$20 a box.
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Old August 13, 2007, 12:36 AM   #3
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I believe ShipWreck just bought one...

...you might want to send him a PM and ask about it.
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Old August 13, 2007, 01:43 AM   #4
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In effectiveness, it's great in the hands of LEOs and military, because they can use the armor-piercing ammo you can't ever have.

For civilians, it's got a lot of capacity, little recoil, and is supposed to be accurate, but it's not going to serve the intended purpose of going through the thickly layered clothing or vests of bad guys. You can't have the ammo that does that.

If you want something civilian with that much punch, you'd need something in 7.62x25, like a TT-33.

Also around here, ammo for it is a scrabble-grab, if a store gets one or two boxes from FN in, it's gone at whatever price they name. I'd still call it an "exotic" ammo at this point.
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Old August 13, 2007, 07:10 AM   #5
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Sorry, gotta disagree here. SS195LF is effectively FMJ, tumbles upon impact yet still penetrates clothing extremely well whereas the SS197SR is loaded w/the 40gr V-Max bullet for fragmentation/expansion. Expecting BG's wearing body armor? Better break out a rifle for that scenario 'cause no handgun's going to do well in that situation.
With that being said I now own 2 FN Five-seveN's. Recoil is very light (allowing for fast followup shots), trajectory is very flat (how about hits at 100yds w/no holdover?) and 21rds w/o reloading isn't a bad thing either.
Effectiveness? Barring a hit to the CNS all handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet used. IMHO shot placement & sufficient penetration are the two most important considerations, all else is secondary and I can hit faster & more accurately w/the FN57 than any other handgun (YMMV).
HTH...
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Old August 13, 2007, 07:25 AM   #6
lear jet 45
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so the gun was developed for LEOs and military.... and with out the (GOOD AMMO) i would gust bot a $1000 plinking gun ?

Thanks Burt
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Old August 13, 2007, 07:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Sorry, gotta disagree here. SS195LF is effectively FMJ, tumbles upon impact yet still penetrates clothing extremely well whereas the SS197SR is loaded w/the 40gr V-Max bullet for fragmentation/expansion.
So we're back to the "does 5.56 really tumble or is .308 a better stopping round" debate, huh? But for pistols.
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Old August 13, 2007, 07:57 AM   #8
mikejonestkd
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IMO:

Pros: easy to shoot, fast followup
large capacity
probably decent penetration in fmj config

cons: expensive to buy, and expensive to shoot - you will probably not get as much range time beacuse of the cost
The ' defeating body armor ' ammo isn't readily available, and the round probably doesn't have much energy/ velocity left after defeating the armor anyways
hard to find ammo
small wound channel in fmj, shallow penetration in v-max loading


If you want one or have one then enjoy it. I think it is a neat idea for a plinker/ fun gun but not an answer to any SD questions that haven't already been addressed with other firearm choices.
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Old August 13, 2007, 08:29 AM   #9
mordis
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I was on the 5.7 forums and they have a post with Balistic gel shots. Both of the civilian rounds you mentioned, failed to penetrate past 9.6" when shot through 4 layers of denim. Hell, even when shot through bare gel, they penetrated less then 10".

I love the concept of the round, and yes shot placement and penetration are key, but if the round you shoot with, wont penetrate deep enough to hit the cns, you gonna be in a world of problems.

Now having said all that, i would love to see some statistics taken from the street. How effective is the ss190 vs the civvy ammo. and what is the fight stopping statistics. 1 shot 2. 20+

I bet with the ss190 it is a great penetrator, but you must remember that gun as well as the ps90 were designed around the armor percing ss190 when it comes to expactations of there effectiveness.
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Old August 13, 2007, 08:49 AM   #10
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If anyone's interested, I sell them for $795 cash price + shipping for $20.
Drop me a PM...

Thanks!
-Ted
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Old August 13, 2007, 08:54 AM   #11
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Guys get off the , I cant get SS190 , therefore its puu-puu stuff...SS190 is no more than a lightweight version of the SS109/M855 5.56 buller...it has a tiny mild steel nosecone inside....its just service ball ammo.
SS195 only lacks the little nosecone inside, and is loaded just as hot as the service ball its like comparing M193 and M855 if talking about 5.56, either will put your eye out.

In testing SS195 against 7.62x25 86gr FMJ...SS195 out penetrates it.
with a new condition Level 2 vest panel and two 900 page DRY phone books
at 15 yards...a majority of SS195 made it throught the whole thing.
7.62x25: vest panel and stopped in the first phone book.
SS195 penetrated the vest panel nose on and then yawed in the phone books. The vest panel after 35 shots of 5.7 still stopped .357 125gr, 230 gr .45Win Mag, 240gr .44Mag just like it was suppost to.

Kevlar is a woven fabric with high tensile strenth in its individual threads, but does a lousey job with ice picks and small caliber Highvelocity bullets.
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Old August 13, 2007, 09:31 AM   #12
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P99, what test was this? Do you have a source to point to?

There's also the fact that the Tok is a 30 caliber round-nose bullet, while the 5.7 is a .224 bullet, a "smaller hole" unless you can absolutely be sure it'll tumble every time...

This is why I said it's back to the endless debate over whether the 5.56x45 is an effective combat round or not.
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Old August 13, 2007, 09:33 AM   #13
Davis
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So in other words, it's a cop killer bullet, eh? Tough to defend yourself in court when bragging about shooting through body armor when the round does less penetration in gel. I have no problem with folks owning them, but let's do a bit less bragging about going through body armor lest we give wonderful ammo to VPC.

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Old August 13, 2007, 09:33 AM   #14
mordis
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p99guy that still dosent change the fact that the gel tests i have seen, bare gell and 4 layer denim only show the ss195 civy round penetrating at maximum 9.9". That is not up to the fbi requirements for a capable fighting handgun. If i had a c hoice between that and 9x19 with fmj only, id take the 9x19 with confidence every day.
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Old August 13, 2007, 10:14 AM   #15
MADISON
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FN Five SeveN

www.fnhusa.com
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Old August 13, 2007, 10:30 AM   #16
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I got 1 a couple of weeks ago. I like it a lot. $779 from Bud's - cheapest I have ever seen them new.

I keep the 197 rounds in mine. They expand nicely in tests I have read about in magazines. And, it is less likely to penetrate several interior walls, as they tend to break up on hard objects.

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Old August 13, 2007, 05:59 PM   #17
lear jet 45
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so in other words not more than a 22 caliber gun......
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Old August 13, 2007, 06:28 PM   #18
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Nope, but there are tons of past threads where this discussion breaks down into the never ending argument - You can search those out.
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Old August 14, 2007, 01:29 AM   #19
p99guy
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Davis...no body is bragging, and there is really no such thing as a Cop killer bullet, any more than there is "semi automatic assault rifles" as news anchors say with a twinkle in their eye.
It will do what it will do and putting your head in the sand will not make it stop. If anybody says what they WILL do then its bragging, but talk about what they wont do and your one of the guys.

I have 20 years in as a LEO, Do you? I want to know exactly what something will do, so I tested it and was the first one to break it to the naysayers over on ARFcom almost 3 years ago when they started the..it wont this and wont that without the "GOOD" ammo(which is just BALL ammo)
5.7 bullets made by FN are consistant as heck, when it comes to yaw...Hornady V-Max isnt made to yaw.

That FBI minimum penetration stuff? I was a LEO before they came out with that to cover their rear ends over that horribly botched Miami shootout.
its a lot easier to blame a winchester silvertip than a fallen hero for mistakes
made that resulted in deaths.....with FBI minimum penetration ammo you can have the bad guy bend over and moon you...shoot him in the butt and still reach heart/lungs....when a bad guy facing you is on average of 12 inches thick...with the vitals 2-6 inches deep (Didnt you ever wonder why combat knifes have 5 to 7 inch blades????? they will reach the vitals with a stab)

7.62x25 DOES have a harder time going through a protective vest because it is round nose instead of pointed, and out of a pistol it is right at that 1650fps
threshold that a II wont stop and a IIIA will.( this isnt a secret, its on NIJ standards charts)

the larger the diameter the pistol bullet is,the easier it is to stop as a rule, as it engages more fibers that must be either cut, or parted...hollow point magnum bullets mushroom creating even more frontal area for the fibers to capture, and slow down. an ice pick on the other hand will go right through without a thought.

27 5.7x28 SS192/195 projectiles that have gone through the aforementioned panel THEN yawed in the dry phone books....that why they look like little cowboy boots ..the nose mashed to the side from sideways momentum



it carries vest fibers through the phone books...a mess



after being shot to swiss cheese with , the vest still stopped magnum pistol fire just fine

this shows the 5.7 exits on the inside of the vest panel(before they entered into the phone books..and that we shot the magnum rounds OPPOSITE of the strike face of the vest and it still stopped them cold even with all the 5.7 holes.



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Last edited by p99guy; August 14, 2007 at 11:17 AM.
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Old August 14, 2007, 01:34 AM   #20
p99guy
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the first five rounds of FN SS192(SS195 is same but lead free primed) II vest panel and 1800 dry pnone book pages...and this isnt the "good" ammo you keep talking about lol...its a small Rifle round..why is this such a surprize?
buy a .223 remington American derringer and it will do it too....


wouldnt hurt at all according to some....




them good ol jelly tests also tell you the 5.7 wont fragment in meat....
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Old August 14, 2007, 06:51 AM   #21
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P99, you need not preach to me as I know well the issues at hand and despise the term. But when you brag on an open board about being able to shoot through a level II bullet proof vest. Ah, so who wears Level II Body Armor? Oh yes, so this is the evil pistol that was DESIGNED to shoot through body armor and I have found photographic proof of this with but a Google search. Cops wear body armor, you boast and now post photographs about your jolly pistol and its ability to punch through police body armor, 2 plus two equals cop killer. It need not be mentioned here, of course, for the phrase to be used as these folks are more than happy to apply it.

Glad your ice pick does the job.
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Old August 14, 2007, 10:06 AM   #22
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Davis...nobody gets upset when the CZ52 is talked about..or the TT33 Tokarev, or .30M1 carbine chambered Ruger BlackHawk, or AMT Automag III
or a .223Remington derringer or any rifle from .22 Hornet on up(for that matter 99% of things shot by a TC contender pistol)....all of which have been around a long time, and will commonly do the same or better and it hasnt ment the end of the world.
the 5.7 is a small rifle round in effect and a pistol to shoot it came out long after the P90 PDW.
This isnt the first time these pics have been on this website..its old news.
And the Brady bunch did their own tests...there is no cat left to let out of the bag..its just a bag.

If this upsets you then I suggest you stop going to the library and using the internet lol...otherwise just move along.
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Old August 14, 2007, 02:58 PM   #23
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P99guy, I found your posts very intresting and informative. You clearly address the cliche of the 5.7 being useless outside of the AP format.
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Old August 14, 2007, 03:50 PM   #24
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Quote:
P99guy, I found your posts very intresting and informative. You clearly address the cliche of the 5.7 being useless outside of the AP format.
Agreed
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Old August 14, 2007, 04:10 PM   #25
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Not another "My bullet is bigger than your's" tread!!!

C'mon!!!

This is absolutely assinine! The question of the thread was "is this an effective weapon?" NOT "does Sarah Brady like it?"

If it ****** Sarah and her retarted friends off, aren't we obligated to own one???

As for wound channel profiles, I would suggest you guys look at Brassfetcher's testing on a number of projectiles that achieve the 'magic 12"' yet fail to expand or cause any form of significant tissue damage. You'll find any number of popular 'pocket pistol' calibers all the way up to 9mm Tokarev and makarov being 'sub-standard.'

Our most recent round of testing (not related to brassfetcher) prooves the FN promotional material that the SS197 (40 grain VMax) penetrates completely through a 12" block of ordinance gellatin when fired from 15' away and creates a nearly 3 1/2 wide permanent crush cavity at 3 3/4 inches of travel into the gel. Elastic cavities are nearly impossible to measure from jello, so anyone that tells gives you stretch cavity size based upon gel testing is full o' poo. Anyway, you can see what SS195, SS197 do on ordinance gel in these video's and still pictures.

To see more of the photo's, video's, cut away's, etc. Come to the fivesevenforum.com to the reloading section and read the thread "Great ammo.'

SS195 (completely exited the block on the side, impossible to determine how far it would have penetrated otherwise)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2h3Uyk67pE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vwo8t4yxbo
SS197 (complete penetration through all 12")
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