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Old September 9, 2007, 12:20 PM   #26
Capt Charlie
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I sure wish I could go to Israel and train at those same places.
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I am sure you can find it 'here' too. No need to go there to train.
Here you go... http://kravmaga.com/locations.asp
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Old September 10, 2007, 05:03 AM   #27
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Hmmm...some of those places are relatively close to where I live (esp. the College Station one). I may have to check one out in person....

One disadvantage I have (besides being old & fat) is that I'm pretty dependent on my glasses. Without them, everything's pretty much a blur, and surgery isn't an option, according to my optometrist. So, anything I learn would have to take into account that I would be fighting "blind", so to speak...

Anyone out there teach "Krav Magoo"?....
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Old September 10, 2007, 06:05 AM   #28
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Sometimes martial arts reminds me of religion. Two guys argue about the translation of one word in one passage and boom, new denomination. 50 years later people write who books on the difference between the denominations, when we would all be better served observing the similarities.

I have watched a few of the human weapon episodes, and enjoy seeing how similar the techniques are even though the "styles" might have developed thousands of miles and even thousands of years apart. It could be that the human bodies' weaknesses and strengths don't vary very much over time and distance.

I had an instructor once who said sometime like, "there are hundreds of doors, you can either peek behind lots of them or open one, go inside and explore carefully", sorta like the beware of the man who has just one gun. I'm still not sure which is better though.
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Old September 10, 2007, 08:22 AM   #29
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Justme,

Sometimes those little differences in interpretation can make a huge difference in what happens in real world situations, both in "fights" and in 1 student going off to form his own school so he can cash in and leave the organization he was apart of.

As far as the man with "one gun" goes, is he viewing the world like how a hammer sees the world as a nail, or is he simply able to make supreme use of a tool at his disposal?
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Old September 10, 2007, 09:05 AM   #30
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Justme,

I'm with you. I like to cross-train in multiple martial arts disciplines and observe the similarities between the different styles/arts. It seems to me that, consistent with Bruce Lee's epiphany, all martial arts should be combinable into a single martial art that encompasses all human movement into a singularity of "truth."

My problem is, I strive to never be one of those guys who "dabbles" in this and that, and then eventually quits to move on to something else. So, each time I pick up a new martial arts course, I have to keep training in the old ones to maintain my skill level. I'm currently taking lessons in 5 different martial arts disciplines (iaido, kendo, jodo, karate, aikido), 4 days a week, and it's becoming quite difficult to make time to train!

Still, fascinating stuff!
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Old September 10, 2007, 03:32 PM   #31
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I agree that a person has to be careful to not see every problem as a nail when your only tool is a hammer. But I am also cognizant of the fact that if your only tool is a hammer you are probably pretty proficient with that hammer. But there are tradeoffs, aren't there always?

At a martial arts tourney I was in in the early 1980s a boxer almost won the sparing competition. He had trained in TKD for about 3 weeks. Since then I have had a great deal more respect for boxers than most martial artists seem to have.

Personally I believe that just about any religion can get you into heaven. I also believe that just about any one of dozens of martial arts can be effective. In an ideal world you could pick the one style that best suited your body type, your strengths and weaknesses and your potential opponents and then learn it well. In the real world I am of the opinion that the instructor available in your area is the single most important factor in choosing a style.

If anyone were to ask my advice, and nobody ever does, I would say to pick the style which has the best instructor in your area. Best instructor doesn't mean best martial artist either, but best teacher.
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Old September 10, 2007, 03:42 PM   #32
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I'm going to try and catch it this week. My Jeet Kune Do sifu already mentioned the show during class and said how much he enjoyed it. I keep missing it though, but will a point to watch this Friday since I'll be home.
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Old September 10, 2007, 04:24 PM   #33
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I love this show as well. Many years ago I had a roommate who was really into the martial arts. He'd studied Kung Fu so seriously he even spent a year in China.

He soon learned, however, that there is no single "perfect" art. So he started expanding how he trained and moved into other arts as well.

Interestingly ... for close in punching he felt that "American Style Boxing" was the most powerful punch.

I didn't really take him seriously, but recently I saw another show called "fight science" on one of the cable science channels where they had experts from different martial arts come in and they tested the speed and power of their punches.

The American Boxer was far and away a more powerful puncher than any of the others -- one of the weakest was the Kung Fu Punch.

Most powerful kick was from the Tae Kwando guy (though I believe it was a spinning kick difficult to use in a real world fight). Not suprising, as TKD specializes in kicks (was my art before I was old and fat).
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Old September 10, 2007, 04:32 PM   #34
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Jeet Kune Do uses the boxing punch for the front lead, which Bruce Lee took from Boxer Jack Dempsy.
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Old September 11, 2007, 04:14 PM   #35
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Indeed, Justme. A boxer, after all, trains in one of the most basic techniques for fighting out there: the punch.

I don't care what type of martial artist you are, the basic block-and-punch should be your bread and butter in self-defense. Variations on "block-and-punch" are found in virtually every martial art in existence. Even aikido teaches several different forms of re-direction and "attemi" (-sp) combos, which is basically just an avoidance/block coupled with a punch.

Boxers work their lives to master several variations on this basic technique: when a threat comes forward, avoid/block the threat and punch the attacker. It's (usually) not flashy. It's not always pretty. But, it's a highly versitile technique, and useful to any one of a huge range of situations.
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Old September 25, 2007, 01:26 PM   #36
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I liked the one on Savate and missed the one on Krav Maga. However the one on Marine Corps Combatives blew...They spent a second on the Raiders but nothing about the China Marines, Biddle and the others responsible for putting their program together during WWII.
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Old September 25, 2007, 07:11 PM   #37
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Justme:At a martial arts tourney I was in in the early 1980s a boxer almost won the sparing competition. He had trained in TKD for about 3 weeks. Since then I have had a great deal more respect for boxers than most martial artists seem to have.
Justme,

That is what you get when you pit an experience person against unexperienced ones. You said three weeks of training, surely he wasn't in the brown/black belt division as that takes years to get the belt.

A good boxer usually has alot of contact experience. Used to hitting, and used to being hit. And of course, even in a TKD tournament, they don't allow kicking to the legs or nuts (and I've been kicked in the nuts several times... once called 'numb nuts'.)

I've also seen kickers who have such power in their kicks if you block, your arms will break (I'm not kidding, they hit that hard.) Usually they are totaly flexable and work out daily. Strong, fast, and flexable.

Still, I like the Krav Maga cause 90 percent of the people will never get their legs in that kind of shape, and thus they need a much more practicle way of defending themselves (I've seen overweight men try to do jump kicks, and except for Sammo, they all look bad.)

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Samurai:I don't care what type of martial artist you are, the basic block-and-punch should be your bread and butter in self-defense. Variations on "block-and-punch" are found in virtually every martial art in existence. Even aikido teaches several different forms of re-direction and "attemi" (-sp) combos, which is basically just an avoidance/block coupled with a punch.
And right Samurai, very basics should be the most trained techniques, trained everyday. No fancy stuff. A few punches, few blocks, and a few kicks (low or otherwise.) A few knee and elbow techniques round it out. Then work on speed and combinations of those basics. Weight train for power. Jog for stamina. And that will do the trick as for techniques.

All that leaves is awariness and seeing it coming (we hope.)
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Old September 25, 2007, 11:25 PM   #38
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The boxer was a good boxer, had a few professional bouts in atlantic city in the late seventies, and he was indeed in the black belt division. Quite frankly I was a bit astonished at how poorly many black belts actually did in a less controlled environment than they were used to. An eye opener to say the least.
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Old September 26, 2007, 04:00 AM   #39
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I think it's REAL important to pay attention to how any art handles a surprise knife.

If they have a plan at all, that's a plus.

The best have a primary defense that falls into one of two camps: "defang the snake" as the FMA guys call it, go in and directly control the weapon, or "get the hell out of the way and THEN counter" which is old-school Japanese and others. BOTH use off-line movements in response to the attack with an "initial dodge" effect. If the counter-attack doesn't work, at least the initial dodge bought you time. Anything like that will be noticeably linked to at least a past in sword-length arms.

The Israelis seem to have a different idea, one I'd not seen before: slam the hell out of the blade hand or arm AND attacker at the same time, while not going for strict control over the opponent weapon. But they're NOT coming from a sword-length edged weapons past; the only bladework in their genealogy is knives (and still very much present).

I suspect that's where the difference lies. I'm not qualified to comment on which is really better; the Israeli system looked OK where knives are concerned, machete or longer...no so much, esp. if somebody knew what the point was for, Mr. Krav-guy would be royally screwed (or skewered).

To me, if the core of the system doesn't know what to do about a surprise knife, it's of no interest except as a source for one or two tricks - like the Boxer's punch or Muay Thai's knee stuff.

What else...some of these "sport origin" arts have a BIG weakness: no elbow stuff. It would be too brutal for sport use. There is SO much carnage to be had out of elbows...
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Old September 26, 2007, 08:38 PM   #40
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I agree, headbutts and elbows are the #1 and #2 most effective weapons I have seen in close range confrontation. In my experience whoever strikes the first legitimate solid blow is the winner at least 90% of the time, foreheads and elbows seem the quickest way to do this.
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Old September 26, 2007, 10:24 PM   #41
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Justme: The boxer was a good boxer, had a few professional bouts in atlantic city in the late seventies, and he was indeed in the black belt division. Quite frankly I was a bit astonished at how poorly many black belts actually did in a less controlled environment than they were used to. An eye opener to say the least.
I'm not supprised Justme. That's also the difference between professional and non-professional tournaments. Professional boxing has LOTS of contact. Each person is trained not only to deliver powerful contact blows but they are used to being hit (and know how to take a hit!) I actually perfer boxing style blocks (and I use them to.)

No, I'm not supprised unless he went into a professional full contact tournament.
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Old September 27, 2007, 08:00 PM   #42
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I like the show; I think it gives a good overview of the different forms of martial arts. Purists may not like the show, but I think it's well done.
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Old September 27, 2007, 08:02 PM   #43
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Well, it's certainly a lot better than WWE or that ultimate fighting nonsense.
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Old September 28, 2007, 07:01 PM   #44
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Well, it's certainly a lot better than WWE or that ultimate fighting nonsense.
MMA is the most "realistic" combat sport out there. Don't confuse MMA with pro wrestling.

IMO the best combination:

1. Muay Thai
2. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (no gi only)
3. Folkstyle wrestling
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Old September 28, 2007, 07:22 PM   #45
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I really enjoyed the show from my backyard, Quantico Marine Base in Virginia. Except for going easy on the "Hollywoods", it was a very accurate depiction of training.
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Old September 28, 2007, 07:30 PM   #46
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MMA, like anything else, as rules (yea they do have quite a few.) I remember reading about the Greek Olympics and how the Spartian's boycotted them cause they did not allow eye gouges! Those Spartians really did belive in realism.

Any setup where you are allowed only to do or use certian things will skew the results (just as weight and height classifications do.) There are ways to kick to the legs that are not allowed in MMA, nor in Muay Thai for that matter. Grappling won't work so well if you are short and light weight but your opponent is tall, strong, and heavy. And that's the fault of MMA as well as many other arts/sports.

What is more MMA espects everyone to bulk up. Sorry, but I think 95 percent of the people here are overweight and out of shape. That is why a gun is so nice a friend to have. Sure like to see many out of shape people take a 10 day MMA course and then try to grapple with a younger stronger guy.

As the Krav Maga and USMC MA courses show, the other guy may have friends, might not play fair and use weapons, might wait till you are tired, be bigger than you, strike without warning, back-shoot/stab/stomp, etc.... Now THAT 'realistic'.

Not saying MMA is lacks benifits, it is most benifitial, but it sure ain't a be-all-end-all.
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