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Old August 18, 2007, 07:56 PM   #26
armoredman
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Tourist, .9mm? That's a needle gun from Retief. And yes, they did hit something, but it was in the next county - hope nobody was hurt.
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Old August 18, 2007, 09:18 PM   #27
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Who would you pick for an opponent between a career criminal or a regular cop for a shoot out ? I think that a majority of CCW holders are probably better marksman, and more inclined to study combat tactics than either.
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Old August 18, 2007, 11:53 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by armoredman
Tourist, .9mm?
Sorry for the typo, it's been that kind of day.

But you have to admit--a slew of brass, and no hits...
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Old August 19, 2007, 05:30 AM   #29
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I regretfully have to say that I was a jr. banger at one time about 10 years ago:barf:,Thank GOD that I quit after watching someone die as account of that "lifestyle".I found god moved,& changed my lifestyle,Thank jesus I didn't make any mistakes that I regret.And yes alot of those guys are fools that think a better or more expensive piece means bigger cahoonas,but like said in this post alot of people Will pull the trigger on someone else,no matter who is on the other end of the sights...

also All the luck to the LEO in this situation I hope i'm not the only one praying.
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Old August 19, 2007, 06:13 AM   #30
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One thing I don't hear talked about much, if ever, is that practice doesn't make perfect. On one level it really doesn't matter if criminals practice (or if permit holders practice either) unless the practice is fundamentally sound, both physically and psychologically. Otherwise all that is happening is that bad practices are being drilled in--practices which will ensure both a false confidence and a lousy, if not lethal, result. I don't find myself much more worried about bad guys who practice shooting at garbage cans in a gravel pit somewhere than I do about the ones who don't practice. Practice doesn't make perfect at all; perfect practice makes perfect. Hopefully permit holders and law enforcement are all getting solid training from professionals and holding themselves accountable to follow that training in all their practice.
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Old August 19, 2007, 06:26 AM   #31
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What worries me more is the "experience" they are getting from actual shoot outs.
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Old August 19, 2007, 06:27 AM   #32
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I think you are arguing semantics and taking too much comfort from the semantic issue. Bad guys don't have to practice properly to improve. A poor practice regime may not make them competition shooters, but it will make them better than they were. On top of that, they have the advantage of not having to worry about errant shots hitting bystanders like good guys have to worry about.
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Old August 19, 2007, 08:45 AM   #33
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When I did armored work, I used to see kids in banger dress "practicing" at the arcade shooting games. They would hold the gun sideways, less than an inch from the screen, and STILL miss! I would walk by laughing, and say, "Keep practicing!"

S'Ok, Tourist, been there, done that.
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Old August 20, 2007, 05:32 PM   #34
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Actually most gang bangers have a decent amount of trigger time. I would never assume a criminal isn't proficient with his weapon.
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Old August 20, 2007, 05:45 PM   #35
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One thing I don't hear talked about much, if ever, is that practice doesn't make perfect. On one level it really doesn't matter if criminals practice (or if permit holders practice either) unless the practice is fundamentally sound, both physically and psychologically. Otherwise all that is happening is that bad practices are being drilled in--practices which will ensure both a false confidence and a lousy, if not lethal, result. I don't find myself much more worried about bad guys who practice shooting at garbage cans in a gravel pit somewhere than I do about the ones who don't practice. Practice doesn't make perfect at all; perfect practice makes perfect.
Not necessarily true. If they understand the principle of using the sights, practice will make them better. Too many people think that just because someone holds a gun "gangsta" style that means they can't hit anything. One of the things I like to demonstrate in our classes is that it doesn't matter how you hold the gun, if the sights are aligned the bullet hits the target. I start by holding the gun sideways then end up with it completely upside down, pulling the trigger with my pinky. I can shoot "A's" all day long like that. The same with point shooting. The more you practice, the more proficient you become. You don't need to be able to beat shooters like me or Rob or anyone, just the average cop or gang banger. When the average cop practices once or twice a year and the BG practices once or twice a month, chances are the BG is going to have a higher level of proficiency.
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Old August 21, 2007, 06:10 AM   #36
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Either way the bad guys training isn't in your control neither is his experience. Just make yourself as good as possible and let the chips fall come crunch time.
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Old August 21, 2007, 07:59 AM   #37
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Lurper,

PLEASE post videos of you shooting gansta style!!!

That would be sweet!!!

My 2 cents on the topic; never underestimate your opponent...
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Old August 21, 2007, 12:18 PM   #38
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Most cops don't practice enough. Most cop departments don't require enough practice. Most CCW folks don't practice enough either. Sadly, most ranges don't allow for defensive-style shooting practice because of "insurance" issues.
That Force Science News article did point out that the BG's often practice more point shooting than do police. This is important and I think more of us need to practice point shooting. In many cases you are trying to move to cover or avoid your antagonist. This may require using the off hand to balance as you move or move a loved one to safety. Knowing how to fire one-handed without sighting is critical.

I know a guy who is an excellent shooter, competes in IPSC and trains hard. But as an experiment we tested his point-shooting skills and his shots went everywhere, including a 35% miss rate.
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Old August 21, 2007, 08:08 PM   #39
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Well maybe he shouldn't point shoot then, no?
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Old August 22, 2007, 08:42 AM   #40
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Presumably most street-thugs are techno-illiterates, thus such things as Google and BitTorrent are beyond their grasp.

Othewise, they're able to download, for free (Internet...all the piracy, none of the scurvy ) a slew of gun training tutorials, from the AGI gunsmithing courses, James Yeagers series, Thunder Ranch DVD's, etc. etc. etc.

Thus, anyone with a desire to learn the skills can do so, and has only to have the means to practice them to gain proficiency in them, gaining perfect practice.
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Old August 23, 2007, 02:59 AM   #41
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Double Naught,

Quote:
Well maybe he shouldn't point shoot then, no?
Maybe he should practice point shooting, ya think?
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Old September 2, 2007, 05:48 AM   #42
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This may be unrelated but this thread made me think back to about a month ago, on the local news was the story of a local heavyweight coke distributor. Three of his guys decided to cash out and came into his home with guns drawn. Ended up burning off his his genitalia with a heated spoon in efforts to make him reveal where he kept his cash. On the news was a 3 second clip of the seized suspect's arsenal. A KP-95 Ruger, Carbon 15 pistol and 16" AR-15. Made me think, LEO's must hate that the old Saturday night special mfg.'s got shut down, these street thugs today have to use something else and two of these three weapons could punch their vest like paper. Before it was .25's that didn't even leave a welt. Practiced adversaries or not seems like the ordnance has gotten heavier. Traditionally only desperado armed robbers have been worth a damn in gunfights with police or feds, I think 95% of other career criminals are probably used to just getting what they want upon flashing steel and complacent. Never the less, assume a common street urchin that pulls down to be Clyde Barrow or Verne Miller, Charles Whitman or Michael Platt. When in fact, most likely Chuck Schumer has better skills and tactical proficiency.But...prepare for the worst in any case.

Be safe out there guys.
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Old September 2, 2007, 11:49 PM   #43
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+1 on point shooting
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Old September 18, 2007, 08:07 PM   #44
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I feel sorry for police officers

who drive about alone in their police cars, forced to interact with disturbed people who behave badly towards other people. I think ccw carriers are cautious people who avoid problems, not run towards them. The problem with criminals is that they shoot first, which defines them as criminals. If I could remove my empathy then I could, too, kill a lot of people when they least suspected it coming. With a silencer no one would ever catch me. We all know how we freeze up and become shaky when the adrenaline starts pumping. Hitting a moving criminal ten yards away will be almost impossible. I think the best idea to have at the back of one's head is to seek cover, to run away from a threat. Pull your hand gun while safe behind a parked car. People who shoot police officers are not cool, they are just showing how empathically disturbed they are. I'm thinking about putting in my will that part of the little money I've got should go to orphaned children of murdered police officers. I think many of the police officers out there aren't the smartest of people. But I guess you have to be emotionally numb to deal with dregs on a daily basis, just like nurses don't worry too much about other people's pain. I think I would be a good police officer though, because my radar goes off if there is a scum bag within a hundred yards of me. But I choose to put my sensitive mind into another line of work.
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Old September 20, 2007, 08:43 AM   #45
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On the news was a 3 second clip of the seized suspect's arsenal. A KP-95 Ruger, Carbon 15 pistol and 16" AR-15. Made me think, LEO's must hate that the old Saturday night special mfg.'s got shut down, these street thugs today have to use something else and two of these three weapons could punch their vest like paper. Before it was .25's that didn't even leave a welt.
It's called unintended consequences.

When politicians called for bans or restrictions on cheaply made guns, calling them the weapons of choice for criminals, they then forced criminals to find a replacement. Those replacements are simply better guns stolen from dealers and residences. As criminals switch to better guns, the politicians can now claim these have now become the weapons of choice simply because the politicians created the problem in the first place.

Counter-intuitive as it sounds, the government should actually promote production of inexpensive small caliber guns. Why? Consider, if you're a criminal and want a gun, would you spend $400 on a S&W snubby or would you spend $125 on a smaller .32 caliber auto? Most would go with the cheap gun so they have more money for their "cool" stuff. So we promote some small companies to make cheap .32 autos, .32 S&W revolvers with short barrels, meaning low power. Additionally, the government could subsidize ammo companies to make cheap JHP ammo for these that doesn't penetrate deeply. End result? Fewer deaths by criminal handguns because they're using cheap, low powered guns or ammo designed to be a shallow penetrator.

Of course, all of us knowledgeable types will be carrying effective calibers and cartridges.
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Old September 20, 2007, 10:34 AM   #46
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Maybe he should practice point shooting, ya think?
Why? Is there some reason he needs to be point shooting?
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Old September 20, 2007, 10:34 AM   #47
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Just about every law has unintended consequences, but it seems like legislators spend sometime between negligible and zero time assessing them. I've mentioned it a few times, but it bears repeating: those who are responsible for gun restricting laws should be criminally prosecuted as being facilitators of crime, or at very least heavily sued. Has anyone carried out such? We need it badly. We should treat anti-firearm sentiment exactly like anti-semitism is treated. Why don't we?
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Old September 20, 2007, 10:48 AM   #48
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Because they are not even remotely the same thing?
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Old September 20, 2007, 11:16 AM   #49
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See you at the range, soon - Greg? Did you see my new 1911?

Good reply.
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Old September 20, 2007, 11:34 AM   #50
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Because they are not even remotely the same thing?
Who cares how similar they are? It's entirely arbitrary and purely a product of relentless PR and squeaky wheel politics--selling the public by relentless hammering-- that one particular ethno-religious background is a sacred cow with 12 foot electric fences and armed guards around it while others are not. We should do the same with OUR position. Seriously. Utterly ridiculous ideas get sold successfully as public mantras and great causes of enlightened society, why not ours as WE view it? P.T. Barnum could sell anyone on anything. Lawyers can talk a nail into a corkscrew. If the world's going to hell in a hand basket, why aren't WE trying to grab the hand basket? If the public opinion is swayed by retards, then how hard can it be to take it away from them?
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