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Old August 8, 2007, 10:09 PM   #1
Capt Charlie
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So you think bad guys don't practice?

http://www.policeone.com/officer-sho...icles/1298341/
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Old August 8, 2007, 10:46 PM   #2
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Interesting article and Pretty well balanced article except for the adjective "chilling", which I guess was a quote from the Sherriff

Cap, was this guy a permit holder? Do we have any more details about this other than the news reports (and this one raises all sorts of questions which are pure speculation and raising them at this time would be a waste of bandwidth)

What do you think the prevelance is of bad guys who actually do practice .....I suppose its all anecdotal anyway>

I see someone with a gun I assume they know how to pull the trigger...which leads me to a related thread...

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Old August 8, 2007, 10:54 PM   #3
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I hope the Deputy makes it too.
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Old August 8, 2007, 11:00 PM   #4
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Many of us on this site and many LE officers like to take comfort from the idea that the bad guys are all total sh*tbags who have junk guns that they hold sideways to spray bullets. Unfortunately, that isn't true. A lot of the bad guys do practice and do know how to use a gun and if they have the money and can get them, they will buy the same kind and quality guns we would buy, equal to or better than police issue.

I don't know the circumstances in that shooting, but I hope the officer did not let down his guard because he assumed the bad guy was also a bad shot. That kind of assumption, called underestimating the enemy, can get the good guy killed. (And of course for the military and homeland security, underestimating the enemy can get a lot of good guys killed, as we know all too well.)

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Old August 8, 2007, 11:08 PM   #5
RevolverLover
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Quote:
Many of us on this site and many LE officers like to take comfort from the idea that the bad guys are all total sh*tbags who have junk guns that they hold sideways to spray bullets. Unfortunately, that isn't true. A lot of the bad guys do practice and do know how to use a gun and if they have the money and can get them, they will buy the same kind and quality guns we would buy, equal to or better than police issue.
I have to agree 100%. Granted, some do have junk guns and can't shoot that well but all it takes is one bullet. There are some inmates at my facility that have military experience and some even got some formal firearms instruction.
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Old August 8, 2007, 11:22 PM   #6
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Bad guy train too!!

Dont be fooled. Criminals train on how to defeat LEO's in prison and at home. Stay sharp and be safe.
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Old August 9, 2007, 09:13 AM   #7
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A great reminder!
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Old August 9, 2007, 10:14 AM   #8
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I have heard that story, and repeated it myself for years, before I went to work in a prison. I have yet to see two inmates training to disarm police officers, or practicing disarming moves, or having mass instruction on any of those things. That's with 6 years on three differant yard, Supermax, Close Custody, and Medium Custody.
That is NOT saying it doesn't go on, but groupings with physical efforts such as that would be noticed, and I have not, nor have I been told of such on any yard I have worked, not unless the basketball games are really clandestine physical confrontation training!
I will pass a request to our secret squirrels if they have seen/heard of such activity, of a nature that I could legally publish redacted data here.
Now, almost all inmates DO mainting a physical fitness regimen that can be quite intense, but many of them, especially in lock down, have nothing else to do, which is why we have seriously intensified out programs, schooling, work programs, etc, to keep them occupied as much as possible, and possibly getting them more inclined to a productive life on the outside. It actually works, sometimes.
As for training, I know several inmates who are ex-military, some with quite intense training/backgrounds, some ex-law enforcement, and some with long records as street brawlers. Some of them are bound to know howto shoot straight.
When I worked an indoor range, I saw many "thugs" come in to "practice", actually practice impressing thier girlfriends, as many of them could NOT shoot past 10 yards. That was where I saw the "technique" of thrusting the pistol forward as it is being fired, perhaps to gain an additional 1-2 FPS? Nevertheless, most would leave proudly with a target full of a shotgun pattern 3 feet wide from ten yards, and tell each other how awesome they are.
So, the vast majority, from my limited experiance/exposure, which nonetheless will be greater than some, is that the typical criminal does NOT practice shoting, unless it's a desert "get together" for partying, and they shoot up the landscape.
The rare one is the thug who CAN shoot straight.
My hopes and prayers for the officer.
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Old August 9, 2007, 04:05 PM   #9
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I guess my concern in this article was the defamation of standard target practice techniques. Sure, the guy's a scumbag, but does his scumbag nature have to be transferred to others through his training style?

From the article:

Quote:
Within hours, investigators learned that Maldonado kept targets from a gun range on the walls of his Miramar home, authorities said.

At Tuesday's press conference, Jenne called the discovery "chilling."

"Many of the targets had bullet holes concentrated in the head area in a very tight pattern," Jenne said.
And from my little "spree" at the range the other day, I had one target with concentrations too -- 2/3 in the "chest area", and 1/3 in the "head area". Everywhere I read, I see suggestions for this type of target practice for self defense.

Do I have to hang it on my wall for it to be "chilling"?

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Old August 9, 2007, 04:11 PM   #10
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From Force Science News


http://forcesciencenews.com/home/detail.html?serial=62

['From a pool of more than 800 incidents, the researchers selected 40, involving 43 offenders (13 of them admitted gangbangers-drug traffickers) and 50 officers, for in-depth exploration. They visited crime scenes and extensively interviewed surviving officers and attackers alike, most of the latter in prison.']

'Several of the offenders began regularly to carry weapons when they were 9 to 12 years old, although the average age was 17 when they first started packing "most of the time." Gang members especially started young.

Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."

One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers "go to the range two, three times a week [and] practice arms so they can hit anything."

In reality, victim officers in the study averaged just 14 hours of sidearm training and 2.5 qualifications per year. Only 6 of the 50 officers reported practicing regularly with handguns apart from what their department required, and that was mostly in competitive shooting. Overall, the offenders practiced more often than the officers they assaulted, and this "may have helped increase [their] marksmanship skills," the study says.

The offender quoted above about his practice motivation, for example, fired 12 rounds at an officer, striking him 3 times. The officer fired 7 rounds, all misses.

More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these "street combat veterans," all from "inner-city, drug-trafficking environments," had taken part in 5 or more "criminal firefight experiences" in their lifetime.

One reported that he was 14 when he was first shot on the street, "about 18 before a cop shot me." Another said getting shot was a pivotal experience "because I made up my mind no one was gonna shoot me again."

Again in contrast, only 8 of the 50 LEO victims had participated in a prior shooting; 1 had been involved in 2 previously, another in 3. Seven of the 8 had killed offenders.'


Also see
http://forcesciencenews.com/home/detail.html?serial=48

If this doesn't make you want to practice more, nothing will.
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Old August 9, 2007, 08:37 PM   #11
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Up here, most cops never, I say again, never, practice with their service piece. Most of them fire their service piece only when required to for their annual qualification or when doing whatever little training they get after leaving the Ontario Police College(a total of 8 hours firearms training there). Few of them shoot anything, recreationally. They see their firearm as a heavy piece of kit they're required to carry.
Our criminals, young gangbanging drug dealers, don't practice either. They live in public housing, in cities. They see their illegally obtained firearms as status symbols and extensions of their genitalia.
Their idea of shooting is to empty the magazine in the general direction of their rivals and hope they hit something or somebody. If that somebody happens to be an innocent kid, that's too bad.
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Old August 9, 2007, 11:41 PM   #12
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we had a nice range near where I live (until some idiot fired tracer rounds in it and burned it down) and I recall talking to people about it, and it's location (a shopping center on US Rt 1, old neighbor hood, with the worst apartment complex in the area behind it) allowed many a "suspicious" looking person to shoot. Since that apartment complex has had a 20 yr history of low income dwellers, and numerous domestic disturbances and shootings, I didn't like finding out the twits also took advantage of the range. yuck, that's all we need, idiots with no regard for the law also training themselves how to shoot us better. wonderful. NOT.
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Old August 10, 2007, 05:29 AM   #13
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Wild, The guys was on probation so I assume that he wasn't allowed to posses guns.
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Old August 10, 2007, 10:01 AM   #14
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Well, this is what we get for range operators having to comply with "equal opportunity" and the like. You can't kick someone out of anywhere because they look dangerous or scummy, especially not apartment complexes. All you can do is live where they don't which imposes elevated financial or geographic burden and even that doesn't work 100%. Some try to push the inane idea that violence is the cost of our freedom, yet they make no such analysis of the cost of our "tolerance."
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Old August 10, 2007, 05:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
So you think bad guys don't practice?
By and large, they do not. Strangely, most CCW folks don't either. Most cops are not trained to deal with marksman-based bad guys. It is a very very small proportion of bad guys with whom they will have to deal. Instead, they are trained to deal with what they get 99.9% of the time. In many cases when the come up against good shooters, prepared fighters, or well organized folks, there is some significant trouble for the cops.

Most cops don't practice enough. Most cop departments don't require enough practice. Most CCW folks don't practice enough either. Sadly, most ranges don't allow for defensive-style shooting practice because of "insurance" issues.
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Old August 12, 2007, 12:11 AM   #16
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I've found airguns (not airsoft) to be very good for daily practice.

Super-cheap to shoot. No noise or recoil to detract from ingraining the fundamental skills. And not 'scary' to anyone who might happen to see to me.

With 15 to 50 yard precision shots at tiny birds (thumb-size bodies) with the break-action pellet rifle in the morning, point shooting with the air pistol at cans and paper plates in the afternoon, and snap shooting with the BB rifle at feral cats and skunks at night, almost every day, I'm pretty much covering all the skill sets, and a pretty good shot too.

I found that one guys quote about practicing because he thought the cops were doing it all the time to very interesting. Criminals practice because they think the cops are, when in fact they most often don't.

Hmmm...and cops call criminals lazy?

And it's interesting to note that the alleged cop-killer got the headshot that he'd apparently been practicing for. Goes to show that proper practice does pay off under stress.
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Old August 12, 2007, 01:06 AM   #17
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Well, this is what we get for range operators having to comply with "equal opportunity" and the like. You can't kick someone out of anywhere because they look dangerous or scummy, especially not apartment complexes. All you can do is live where they don't which imposes elevated financial or geographic burden and even that doesn't work 100%. Some try to push the inane idea that violence is the cost of our freedom, yet they make no such analysis of the cost of our "tolerance."


Under your analysis, slobs/wierd looking folks like me would be banned...

Or are you referring to something else

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Old August 12, 2007, 01:21 PM   #18
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Quote:
Many of us on this site and many LE officers like to take comfort from the idea that the bad guys are all total sh*tbags who have junk guns that they hold sideways to spray bullets. Unfortunately, that isn't true. A lot of the bad guys do practice and do know how to use a gun and if they have the money and can get them, they will buy the same kind and quality guns we would buy, equal to or better than police issue.
I feel sorry for any LEO who thinks that way. Very naive...
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Old August 13, 2007, 01:15 AM   #19
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This officer was lightly armed, not in uniform, no backup, in a Dodge Stratus, no partner, etc.

How did the officer feel that he was prepared to make a traffic stop? Why didnt he wait for a marked unit? He could have simply observed and followed the motorcyclist until some uniformed officers arrived.

If its not a life or death situation, an officer should never attempt a stop or arrest while off-duty in plain clothes.
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Old August 13, 2007, 06:10 AM   #20
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I'm a range officer in Dade City Florida. Just what does a bad guy look like? I see lots of men and a few women practicing all the time. If I had a guaranteed way of knowing who is good and who is bad I promise that our range would not allow the bad.

Given that we don't know and there is no way to know my recommendation is to practice more yourself. Just as important as gun skills are tactics and awareness. Make yourself as good and knowledgeable as possible. If that day ever comes that you meet a bad guy in a gun duel, if you have done everything in your power to better yourself, there isn't anything else you can do to change the outcome. The bad guys training and skill level isn't in your control unlike your own training.
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Old August 17, 2007, 09:39 AM   #21
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Whether they practice or not Capt Charlie is not as important as the fact that they WILL pull the trigger.
While the average Joe is conditioned from childhood to not point guns, and not harm folks, criminals are not wired the same.
They can, and will pop a cap.
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Old August 17, 2007, 06:02 PM   #22
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Bad guy here in Tampa just killed a HCSO deputy a couple days ago. Just walked up to the patrol car and fired. Round hit the armpit and exited the opposite side. Officer was dead at the scene.

Skin head bad guy was later disposed of by SWAT snipers after shooting at other officers.

Yes they will shoot.
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Old August 18, 2007, 05:03 PM   #23
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It's true that a lot of LEO's don't practice/train as much as they should. It's also true that even more CCW holders don't practice. This incident should serve as a chilling reminder not only to train more, but also try to avoid trouble in the first place. When I took some self defense lessons years ago (martial art, unarmed), one thing the instructor instilled in us was the very real and likely possibility that your adversary might be better than you.

I've taken a one day basic pistol course as well as a four day defensive handgun course. I do not consider myself an expert by any stretch of the word. However, taking a course specifically focusing on defensive tactics made me realize how ill prepared I was beforehand, and how thankful I was that I haven't been involved in any gunfight encounters (which I most likely would have lost).

The number one problem with training, I think, is the mentality that a lot of gun owners have, especially males--"I know how to shoot. I don't need to train." Usually these folks have not been in any kind of situation that called for use of force. I can't tell you how many times I hear that from the armchair commando types that I know. They are the ones that criticize the credentials of everybody else, yet seem to have no credentials of their own, yet talk like they're the foremost authorities.

I think the next problem is, as someone else mentioned it, that most ranges don't allow defensive training, for insurance reasons. I see why public ranges would not want someone they can't control shooting himself in the leg while trying to draw, or firing up at the ceiling or down at the floor because someone pulled the trigger too soon. I can sympathize with that. But the fact remains that defensive shooting training is limited, outside of expensive training facilities that a lot of people can't afford, or are so far away.
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Old August 18, 2007, 05:11 PM   #24
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I believe bangers do buy upscale guns. I've seen several nickel-plated Colt .38 Supers in various music videos. R. Kelly uses one in his infamous 'closet' opera.

Now, do they practice? If they do, it ain't in Wisconsin.

As you know, our Madison City Police have reported a running gun battle on our south side to the Wisconsin State Journal.

They have found numerous brass casings.

Strangely, they have not found a shooting victim, not one.

How in the world do your spray a street with .9mmx19, .38 Super, or .40 SW ammunition and not hit anything--not even the report of hitting an entire building.
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Old August 18, 2007, 07:44 PM   #25
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Having that child grow up without that particular father is a very good thing.
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