The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 8, 2007, 11:44 AM   #1
Anibal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2004
Posts: 133
George S. Patton and 1911´s

There is something I would like to know:
Why didn’t General George S. Patton like the 1911/1911A1 semiautomatic pistols?

Thanks in advance,
Anibal
Anibal is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 11:59 AM   #2
Limeyfellow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2005
Posts: 1,380
Because he was an idiot.
Limeyfellow is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 12:05 PM   #3
sholling
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 1999
Location: Hemet (middle of nowhere) California
Posts: 4,260
You realize that 3 star generals rarely get personally involved in gunfights right?
__________________
Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, California Rifle & Pistol Association, and the Second Amendment Foundation.
Annual Member: Revolutionary War Veterans Association (Project Appleseed) and the Madison Society.
sholling is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 12:11 PM   #4
The Tourist
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2005
Posts: 2,348
He was trained with a SAA. In fact, his first exchange was with it, and that's why the revolver wears two filed notches.

As for autos, he did carry a hammerless .380, although I am not sure of the manufacterer.

Some one is going to have to help here. I am not a well versed Patton historian.
The Tourist is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 12:17 PM   #5
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
It's not that he didn't like the 1911, it's that he preferred revolvers for his iconic image.

Patton was egotistical and he was "old school" calvary. His calvary boots, pants and a "sixgun" (or a pair) plus that polished helmet were his trademarks. He wanted his men to see that The General was out in the mud and s--t with them. You couldn't mistake him for anyone else standing alongside the road. Not in that getup!

His tough-talking, a$$-kicking attitude won him the admiration and respect of his troops. Some cursed that they were suffering to make the General look good but those comments were usually stuffed down their throats by guys who knew better -- If the General looks good, it means we're winning the war. Quit whining and STFU. At least according to my late Uncle who was a tanker under Patton in Italy & Europe.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 12:34 PM   #6
RJay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,645
BillCa has it right. He wore a Colt Single action and a S&W 357 Magnum for the image. He did (or so it is written) use the Colt on a raid during the Mexican expedition and used it to shoot a Mexican bandit, hence the notch in the grip. His later .380 was a issue ( for Generals) 1908 Hammerless Pocket Colt. He wore it only for dress occasions when he wasn't wearing his big guns. He owned a number of personal firearms, one of which was a Remington Model 51, but so far as I know he never wore it in uniform. He had nothing against the 1911, but he was a egotistical SOB and as a General in wartime he could wear anything he wanted. He was also the richest general in the U.S. Army.
RJay is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 01:18 PM   #7
Dfariswheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2001
Posts: 6,822
From the same post on another forum:

The story goes, that during the hunt for Pancho Villa in 1913, Patton was assigned to General Pershing's staff.

He had a new 1911 that he'd "tuned up" by working over the hammer and sear to give a "better" trigger pull.
He was standing at the bar in an El Paso saloon talking to a Texas rancher when his foot slipped off the brass rail.
When his foot hit the floor, the over-stoned sear and hammer allowed the hammer to fall, firing a shot into the floor.

The Texan, being a gentleman said nothing.
Patton was greatly embarrassed, and typically for home gunsmiths, he blamed the 1911.

Although he did own and carry a number of automatic pistols over the years, he never again carried a 1911.
Among the automatics he did own were .22 Colt Woodsman and the famous Colt .380 auto he carried as a "hideout" gun.

A second likely reason, is that Patton was an old fashioned type man who preferred the revolver for "business" carry, and liked the more accurate revolvers.
Dfariswheel is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 01:46 PM   #8
Anibal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2004
Posts: 133
Thanks again Dfarishwheel.

Anibal.
Anibal is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 01:53 PM   #9
Baba Louie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2001
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
When his foot hit the floor, the over-stoned sear and hammer allowed the hammer to fall, firing a shot into the floor.
Hmmm. Condition 1, unsafed? Or would that be condition 0. Interesting story none-the-less.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington, January 8, 1790, First State of the Union Address
Baba Louie is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 06:06 PM   #10
Magnum.35744
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 269
He did indeed like 1911's...

I read that Patton liked the 1911 so much and always stuck to his trademark ivory grips he actually took his government issued 1911 and snuck on some ivory grips that he loved so much and carved in his initials in the side of it like he did the others. And although rumors fly around saying he carried both of his revolvers at once let me tell you...it's all BS sorry . He only carried one at a time and was rumored to be seen only ONCE carrying those cannons at the same time. Here's more information to help you and others ...

His Guns...
http://www.pattonhq.com/pistols.html

The Shootout Story...
http://www.pattonhq.com/unknown/chap05.html

More About His Guns...
http://www.bobtuley.com/georgepatton2.htm

Just contact me if you want more information on this subject. I've done numerous reports on Patton for school and especially about the guns he carried. Hope this helps.

-Tre
__________________
Magnum.35744
Magnum.35744 is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 08:21 PM   #11
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,347
Quote:
His tough-talking, a$$-kicking attitude won him the admiration and respect of his troops. Some cursed that they were suffering to make the General look good but those comments were usually stuffed down their throats by guys who knew better -- If the General looks good, it means we're winning the war. Quit whining and STFU. At least according to my late Uncle who was a tanker under Patton in Italy & Europe.
Not everyone agrees with this, and that is part of the story as well. From Jim Thompson's book "The Classic M1 Garand" pg. IX;

"...though many editors have, without my permission, inserted George Patton's overblown bombast about the M1 into articles of mine, I have never quoted General Patton in anything in print, and probably not verbally, either. (It's a family thing, you see, for whenever his name came up, remarks about "blood 'n' guts" and things far, far more brutal would reverberate. Many who served in the 2nd Armored Division felt that way, and after hearing the ugly stories, so did many of their relatives.)"

Over the years I've known three men who served under him and none had much good to say of him. But than two were Latino and one Black (all passed on now) and the good General was known for his animus towards both groups of folk according to these men.

But he had good taste in guns. A rich man, he could afford them.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old August 8, 2007, 08:32 PM   #12
Dfariswheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2001
Posts: 6,822
More about the saloon story.

At that time the US Army was using the Model 1912 Mounted and Dismounted hip holsters.

These were very similar, except the now-rare Model 1912 Dismounted holster didn't have the swivel in the shank.
The Model 1912 Dismounted holster was not popular, especial with the Infantry and the Navy, so in 1916 it was redesigned without the drop loop.

Point is, Patton was wearing the 1911 in a Model 1912 Mounted holster, and this holster is actually worn attached to the thigh with a strap and to the belt.
Since the gun was actually attached to his leg, the force of his boot hitting the saloon floor was enough to "jar off" the overly stoned trigger assembly.

Patton was a life long target shooter, once competing in the Olympics.
He always wanted the best trigger and sights he could get, and like a lot of people then (and now) he just didn't "understand" the 1911 trigger assembly, and went too far, trying to turn the combat 1911 into a more accurate gun.

Had this not happened, his famous shootout at the Mexican ranch might have happened with a 1911 instead of his famed Colt SAA.
Dfariswheel is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 01:20 AM   #13
SIGLOCKAUR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2004
Posts: 279
My father in law served under Patton in WWII. All he ever said was that he was a real Son of A B*&^% who didn't care anything about his men. My father in law won a chest full of medals in the war. He was white by the way and said most of the guys he fought with felt the same way about Patton. I'm just relating what he told me.
SIGLOCKAUR is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 08:14 AM   #14
Spade Cooley
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2007
Posts: 296
I have heard the same story about Patton. He could bust a trooper for being out of uniform by having something unauthorized on his uniform yet he designed his outfit to match what he wanted. I've also heard he was a SOB.
But I guess in time of war the SOBs come in handy.

I would rather carry a Colt Peacemaker than a 1911 any day because I can shoot much better with it. I'll venture to say if most Troopers were trained with both pistols, they could shoot the revolver better than a rattle trap 1911. The round is also more powerful.
Spade Cooley is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 09:05 AM   #15
Fremmer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,482
Quote:
Since the gun was actually attached to his leg, the force of his boot hitting the saloon floor was enough to "jar off" the overly stoned trigger assembly.
Good info, Bill. I never knew that before now. Pretty interesting stuff!

I don't mess with triggers, either. No messing with 1911 triggers, Remington triggers, any of them. I just don't have the know-how, and I'm not so good with mechanical stuff. I probably sound nag people too much about having a Smith do their trigger work (even on a Remington rifle).
Fremmer is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 02:10 PM   #16
pogo2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2002
Location: Southwest
Posts: 879
Photo of Patton's SAA

The Colt SAA owned by Patton is on display at a military museum in Kentucky. Here it is:

pogo2 is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 03:55 PM   #17
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,867
Supposedly Patton also managed to turn that same 1911 into a full-auto with his overly heavy 'modifications'.

Patton may have been a prick, but I think he still holds the record for most territory taken, most prisoners taken, and so forth and so on.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 04:34 PM   #18
Fremmer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,482
He had good taste in revolvers, that's for sure!

What would you Colt SAA guru's estimate that a Colt with similar engraving would cost on the market today?
Fremmer is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 06:31 PM   #19
Dfariswheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2001
Posts: 6,822
I'm not sure, but Colt still offers Class "D" 100% coverage engraving through the custom shop.

As a strictly wild guess? Probably around $1000, not including the gun.
Dfariswheel is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 06:42 PM   #20
Rembrandt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 10, 2002
Posts: 1,863
Patton was a world class pistol shot....even competed as an Olympic shooter. Lost over a controversial target. Patton claimed to have put two rounds through the same hole in the target, judges ruled he had completely missed the target.
Rembrandt is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 09:02 PM   #21
tulsamal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Location: Vinita, OK
Posts: 2,456
Quote:
I have heard the same story about Patton. He could bust a trooper for being out of uniform by having something unauthorized on his uniform yet he designed his outfit to match what he wanted.
The problem with that is that the first guy was outside of regulations and Patton wasn't. In general, there are very strict regulations on what and how things are worn in uniform. Those rules don't apply to generals. They are formally allowed to design their own daily dress however they see fit. You can't bust a General for something on his uniform being "wrong." By definition, it can't be!

Gregg
tulsamal is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 10:23 PM   #22
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 3,059
I recall reading years ago-may have been in a Guns and Ammo article printed
in 1971 about Patton and his guns-that he considered the automatic a gun
of two parts, meaning you need the gun and the magazine, while with a revolver all you needed was loose ammunition. Also recall reading that he
called his S&W .357 his "killing gun" although there is no evidence he ever fired it in anger.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old August 9, 2007, 10:46 PM   #23
Eric M.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2007
Location: Forest Lake, Minnesota
Posts: 301
Not to get off subject here,[ME??] and Not to start a history post,but Limyfellow, I sense a dislike for the finest General of WWII.
SOooooo, to pose this question to you, if Patton was an idiot, and Patton had more military brains in his big toe than Montgomery had in his entire body:, how would you characterize Monty????

Eric
__________________
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
NRA Pistol Instructor
NRA Life Member
DNR Certified Firearms Safety Instructor 37 yrs
Eric M. is offline  
Old August 10, 2007, 09:46 AM   #24
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,865
Well, his SAA had saved his bacon once while a 1911 had not. Personally, I think it's rather sound judgement to go with what you know works.
__________________
Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan
Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd
All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar
Webleymkv is offline  
Old August 10, 2007, 06:00 PM   #25
kart racer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2005
Posts: 175
My father was b17 pilot in ww2 and had the pleasure of being in the same theatres as Patton and Montgomery.He said that both were prima donna's disliked by almost all the men,but they had respect for Patton's ability and no respect for Montgomery.

He also felt that it was a battle of egos and some of the troops felt they were put into postions that cost many a life-because of an ego.

My father felt the smartest general for a good while was on the opposing same in the same theatre-let's see, what was that German's generals name?

I have actual bombing photos,etc from my Dad's plane.He was also awarded the distinguished flying cross and a presidential citation.He had a great respect for the enemy and the quality of their equipment.The US won by shear volume of euipment.Sorry,I got a little off track-but these subjects make me miss him.

To add something relating to the post,the few times my Dad actually saw Patton,he had one revolver.
kart racer is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15215 seconds with 7 queries