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Old September 17, 2007, 10:47 PM   #76
SatanzBountyHunter
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SBH/\ Of course you know I was just razzin' you - no offense. Plenty of respect here. Hope there's no hard feelings.
No offense taken...thought that was funny actually. But where in the world did you come up with 'Earnest Gibbenholtz'? Oliver Closeoff is a much better name. LOL.
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Old September 18, 2007, 12:48 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Hallucinator
I hope that one day they'll change laws so that we can protect ourselves with firearms when faced with multiple attackers. I'm sixty four and will obviously not excel in martial arts against multiple attackers. But at present, the law won't let me use a gun to protect myself, even though the punks could very easily kill me with hands and feet.
This is really not an accurate understanding of the law as it applies to deadly force.

If a reasonable and prudent person, knowing what you knew at the time, would believe that you were in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious injury, you would be legally justified in using deadly force to defend yourself. An attack by multiple assailants would generally fit those requirements, especially if the intended victim were a senior citizen. (This is true because of a legal principle called "disparity of force.")

See www.useofforce.us , or www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx and www.corneredcat.com/Legal/myths.aspx , or pick up a copy of Massad Ayoob's book In the Gravest Extreme, for more details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw florida
I like Oregon and Washington, but from what I understand, their self defense laws are for the safety of their criminals. I will not move to a state which does not allow me to pop *******s on sight.
Again, legal misunderstandings here.

Washington and Oregon both have "castle doctrine" laws. Washington has never had "duty to retreat" language in the law, and thus Washington had no need to erase the previously bad law as Florida had to with its "stand your ground" law. Washington has had legal shall-issue carry permits for decades longer than Florida. In Washington, if you use deadly force and are found justified in a court of law, the state will pay all costs associated with your trial.

But none of that really matters. The important thing is that in NO state of the union -- not even Florida -- is it legal to "pop *******s on sight." Your license to carry a concealed weapon is not a hunting license for *******s.

It is, however, legal to defend yourself against a reasonably-perceived deadly threat, in Florida and in every other state of the union. A concealed carry permit merely enables you to have the tools on hand if you need to defend yourself against an immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm.

If you use deadly force in defense of your own life, do not expect the cops to show up, say, "Ahh, a legally-justified good shooting, you have a nice day now," and send you on your way. Even in Florida, it does not quite work that way. Cynical and suspicious cops will investigate the scene and interrogate the witnesses, and if there's a whiff of doubt about why you did what you did, you may very well find yourself in a court of law defending your actions.

See the links above for more information -- especially this link on the Cornered Cat.

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Old September 18, 2007, 06:35 PM   #78
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Correction

I know one can't pop *******s on sight. But sometimes I have the feeling that it will become the law in the future. Tomorrow never knows.
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Old September 18, 2007, 06:50 PM   #79
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I forgot

to tell you about putting a key so that it sticks out between your knuckles. Stab at their eyes with the tip of the key. Stab to blind permanently. Hard sideways stomps at knees are good too, or single toe kicks to their knee caps. The key punched to their ribs hurts as hell. But the eyes are the best.

Everything is so much easier when you have a gun in your hand. What good does it do in your drawer at home?
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Old September 19, 2007, 11:10 AM   #80
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The demographics of concealed carry, at least in my state, are mostly either old geezers, or geezers in training.

We aren't 'fit', or skilled in martial arts. Neither do we leap tall buildings at a single bound. Nor are we bullet proof. Can't fight effectively, too slow or stupid to run, so the 'best' solution is to avoid situtations where we need to do either.

Barring that, the only option is to capitulate or fight as best as we can.

If, for whatever reason, the decision to fight is forced upon me, I'd be inclined to shoot 'till slide lock, reload, and shoot some more.

As to the aftermath, there SHOULD be a reckoning of some sort.

Hopefully, it would not be politically motivated.

salty.
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Old September 20, 2007, 05:33 AM   #81
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"Karate is one of the oldest forms of self defense."
"Well it ain't older than runnin'!"

-Sanford and Son




"In Krav Maga we have one rule ablout biting; make sure your teeth meet"

-from an article I read
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Old September 20, 2007, 07:09 AM   #82
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Willie D,
You bring up an interesting point. You may or may not have the opportunity to do so, but a human bite can be an awful thing. Never underestimate it. Unlike dogs (who use instinct, and have mouts large enough to get around a throat), humans have the cognitive ability to bite where it counts. Like on the wrist that's holding a club. This gets back to another thread about moving IN on an attacker - It's not what they're expecting. A club or other blunt instrument is a good example - a knife is a very bad choice to move in on.
Biting may sound like a sissy move to some, but I'd rather be a sissy than a John Doe. I'm not above popping their ears or kneeing them in the groin either.
This is a firearms thread, but sometimes you need the chance to safely remove your weapon. I'm not going to go for it while one thug has me in a choke hold and the other is punching me. As for getting along in years, we weere given the innate ability to get smarter as we get older. Having been in a few bar-room brawls in my younger days (and MA training when I was a bit more mature) has taught me a few cheap tricks that I'd be more than willing to employ.
Also - not a bad time to use a BUG as first line of defense provided you carry it smartly. You need to telegraph your move when going for the waistband, but from the fetal or prone position, you might be able to get at that little mousegun and give them something to think about while you go for the big boy.
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Old September 21, 2007, 12:50 AM   #83
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shoot an opening and step through it, if the sounds of the shots doesn't make them all scatter, if they haven't already knocked you senseless...

drop to the ground and shoot all forms above you, if the sounds...
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Old September 21, 2007, 03:28 PM   #84
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well...

I have a bad habit of walking with my hands in my pockets; jacket, jeans, shorts, whatever...I am always cozy with the Bersa .380 Thunder in the right and the CRKT Kasper and the ASP Key Defender in the left...the Taurus 1911 stays under belt unless SHTF that the .380 can't handle. If confronted with a crowd, the Bersa is already in hand and ready to make an appearance...when I go into unfamiliar territory, I make sure I bring another gun nut, err...firearms enthusiast...with me so there's an extra set of eyes, ears, and mags...
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Old September 21, 2007, 03:34 PM   #85
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thank you

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
bringing a knife to a gun fight

If I do nothing else in this forum it will be to show how outmoded and incorrect this 'old joke' has become.
Thank you. I get tired of hearing Sean Connery quoted against me using a knife.

Quote:
Now, an untrained teenager with his mom's steak knife may not be a credible threat, I admit that. However, the people and ideas we discuss here usually focus on adult situations and fairly effective tools.
I have been on the recieving end of a few blades and have learned just how effective they are. That's why I carry one...or two...or three...

Quote:
And that's my concern here. Trust me, at contact distances, you'd better be able to draw like Wyatt Earp or 'speed rock' like Rob Leatham.
What is the attack distance and time now? It was 21 ft in 4 seconds. Enough to kill with a knife before a weapon draw.

Quote:
And as you go for that hawg-leg, remember that a firearm does not increase your reaction time, your strength, your tenacity, or your skill.
Very good point.

Quote:
You make one sloppy amateurish move, and I'll latch onto you by your dojo belt and hack you up like a Christmas goose. And remember, personally, I'm not that good. Imagine yourself at the mercy of someone who is...
Scary thought, but very true.
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Old September 24, 2007, 11:54 PM   #86
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I still think we need a CCW for handgrenades. All the good guy has to do is reach the pin, and, be willing to die. Terrorism in reverse, for the goodguys...

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Old September 29, 2007, 05:47 PM   #87
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DGindlesperger


This reminds me of the zombie threads.......
Zombie threads....

Do people actually think zombies really exist?
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Old September 30, 2007, 12:21 AM   #88
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^ Why is it always zombies and never Zerg?
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Old October 4, 2007, 04:23 PM   #89
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Before gettin sarcastic and acting like I'm the stupid one, remember that we have gravity...Unless you are planning on being attacked by a gang on the moon or in a vacuum...The bullet will come down and you have no control over where it lands...
debate over warning shots aside....

i seriously doubt the terminal velocity of a round falling back to earth would hurt anyone,atleast not seriously(maybe a sting/bruise).

just as a best guess i would think anything fired at more than a 45 degree angle would be relatively safe falling back down.
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Old October 4, 2007, 04:27 PM   #90
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Depends on the size and shape bullet, really. .22 40 grain round nose won't have as much striking energy on the down trip as a .30 165 grain boat tail.
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Old October 4, 2007, 04:35 PM   #91
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well it would probably vary depending on size and shape...

but i wouldnt think even a very large caliber would be a serious threat on a return trip.

what would terminal velocity be on something like that?

100 fps give or take(once again just a guess)?
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Old October 4, 2007, 04:44 PM   #92
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I guess the worst case scenario would be a .50 BMG boat tail. Most mass for a spitzer bullet, so it would have the most striking energy at terminal velocity. Drop one from whatever the right hight would be and see if it's dangerous--if not, then anything less won't be.
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Old October 4, 2007, 04:57 PM   #93
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yeah,and if you have something like that im not sure if a warning shot would be needed.
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Old October 4, 2007, 05:34 PM   #94
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I am looking

for the actual ballistics on this. I heard rumor that the F'inBI studied it one time. Will post more later...
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Old October 4, 2007, 05:44 PM   #95
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i seem to remember Mythbusters doing a segment on it.

dont recall any of the specifics,but they pretty much said little to no danger if i remember correctly.

i wanna say they used an AK(for one)?....or maybe they just showed clips of guys with AK's firing into the air in the lead up?
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Old October 4, 2007, 05:51 PM   #96
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Yea

remember though, Mythbusters "proved" that Carlos Hathcock could not possibly have shot another sniper through his scope. I don't put too much stock in their show...
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Old October 4, 2007, 05:53 PM   #97
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Yeah, i saw that mythbusters episode. . under the influence of only gravity, terminal velocity of ANY caliber would result in a knot on the head and little more.
back to the original question; when outnumbered, weapon or not, attack the ring leader first. fighting dirty is not only acceptable but necessary! take out the head and the body will fall. thats the truth of gang mentality.
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Old October 4, 2007, 05:59 PM   #98
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Doug-

oh,i agree.

but terminal velocity(and the angles involved with it) shouldnt be difficult to calculate.

thats why i mentioned the 45 degree angle.maybe there are some ballistics im not taking into account(in regards to the exact angle),but it would seem that if gravity was the predominant acting factor on velocity....

there shouldnt be much if any danger involved with something that small(even a large caliber is relatively small) falling back to earth.
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Old October 5, 2007, 09:48 AM   #99
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See...

I do not know one way or the other and math has never been my thing really. So I am trying to find a definitive answer...
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Old October 5, 2007, 12:19 PM   #100
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well,ive found a few links where people seem to think it would be very dangerous or deadly....but their calculations dont seem to fit their conclusions.

for example,assuming this guy is correct in his formula and results...

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...2171.Ph.r.html

a 7.62 would have a terminal velocity of arround 90 mph....approx 135 fps?

he seems to think this would/could be deadly "if struck in the head or chest".

i cant imagine this would be the case.im sure it wouldnt be pleasant,but death or even serious injury should be very unlikely....unless maybe you were looking up and hit in the eye?

an object with a mass of 20 grams,moving at less than 100 mph deadly?

seems highly unlikely to me(a smaller caliber even more so),but maybe im missing something.

Last edited by Jermtheory; October 5, 2007 at 01:38 PM.
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