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Old September 15, 2007, 05:55 AM   #51
TheNatureBoy
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Doug083

Doug, I envision warning shots being fired into the air. Don't think any toddlers would be there : )
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Old September 15, 2007, 07:16 AM   #52
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You better have a high cap mag if you're thinking of firing warning shots. No time to reload. I'd consider a "Red Rover" manuever to break through before even producing a weapon. Once outside the circle, they are in a bunch. Now it's a little more safe to discharge because beyond your target scumbag is another scumbag. Any of whom can be considered a threat. Absolutely time to become a maniac.
This will sound like I'm spinning a yarn, but it's true; I was being harrassed by two bad boys downtown a few years back. Not attacked, but harrassed. Not being able to think of anything else other than start pluggin', I started making jerky movements. First I looked at one shoulder and said (something like, can't remember exactly); "No,no,don't hurt them, they weren't the ones hiding in the jungle, the Hewies are coming" Other shoulder; "Sarge! the Hewies! stay down! they're coming!" - Honestly, not that exactly, but something like that, whatever came out. NO OFFENSE to you Nam vets, you guys are tops, but I wasn't making fun, I was trying to look like a D-2 guy.
I figured punks like these would have never served their mother, much less their country. This didn't exactly make them leave, but they backed off enough to laugh a bit. That was enough of a break for me to run like h*ll to the nearby hospital parking lot toll booth, where the monitor called security.
Against 5-6? I deffer to the "Red Rover" and the advice of others with more experience than myself.
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Old September 15, 2007, 09:43 AM   #53
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From my understanding, most gang attacks are directed toward members of rival gangs. Don't go into their neighborhoods at night. Don't buy drugs from them.

I worked in neighborhoods in California where there were gangs and never had a problem. They ignored me. They were into running dope and weapons and protecting their turf from other gangs. They considered the police to be just another gang.

What I think is being referred to here is random collections of punks who have been getting high and looking for amusement, like stomping people for fun.

I hope that one day they'll change laws so that we can protect ourselves with firearms when faced with multiple attackers. I'm sixty four and will obviously not excel in martial arts against multiple attackers. But at present, the law won't let me use a gun to protect myself, even though the punks could very easily kill me with hands and feet.
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Old September 15, 2007, 02:03 PM   #54
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From my understanding, most gang attacks are directed toward members of rival gangs. Don't go into their neighborhoods at night. Don't buy drugs from them.
+1 By far the best advice. In southern Ohio "gangs" are usually groups of hillbilly meth dealers. It is easier to stay away from them if you aren't related, but they seldom start trouble at family reunions and such.

People underestimate how much damage a boot can do. At my hometown fair about 10 years ago a couple of teenaged hillbillies got into a fight over a girl. One kid kicked the other in the ribs and the kickee died, I think a rib hit his heart or something. Anyway, apparantly running is better than rolling into a ball on the ground.
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Old September 15, 2007, 02:08 PM   #55
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Defending Against Gang Attack

Ask who wants to be shot first. No takers? Start shooting. By the time you run dry all you will see are a**holes and elbows heading out of Dodge.
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Old September 15, 2007, 02:15 PM   #56
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I took Jeet Kun Do for several years, it's martial arts, weapons training ect, they teach what's called mass attack, defence against several attackers at the same time, see if you can find a trainer in your area
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Old September 15, 2007, 02:38 PM   #57
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Sorry, guys, but if you are unarmed (or armed, but don't have time to draw) you have to run.
No matter how good you are at any kind of martial art, you are outnumbered and it takes only one lucky strike on their part (or one screw up on yours) for you to go down. You don't know what they are carrying, or whether they have pals in the vicinity.

And like many say, once you are down, you are done.

I spent many years in a very rough trauma unit. I've seen many guys come in, beaten up. Often they were beaten up by more than one assailant. I never saw a guy come in with bloodied knuckles and slight injuries, telling me to look out for the six guys he just defeated, who should be arriving shortly on stretchers
It is my opinion that there are more advantages to running (even if it is just to buy time and distance) than to stay put and square up to them.
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Old September 15, 2007, 03:40 PM   #58
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I have always wonder what the legality of carrying a deactivated hand grenade is. I figure pulling out an old pineapple pulling the pin and trying not to blink first would scare off a group of attackers better than anything else.
LOL!
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Old September 15, 2007, 05:02 PM   #59
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Adding another question

Thanks for all the experience and observation insight. I personally feel like these types of attacks on innocents are going to increase since it seems like street mutants don't see this for the cowardly act that it is and for some reason, it is being tolerated to some degree by our society.

Krav Maga and a few others mentioned here seem like systems that would offer some chance for survival in this situation. Has anyone practiced drawing from the ground?

Let me throw out another question on top of the one I already asked:

As a future prosecutor, I would like to see a law that gives every aggressor participant of a multiple party attack (2 or more v. 1) get a mandatory minimum of 25 years...regardless of the degree of injury to the victim. Please add your thought on that along with your commentary of defending against the gang attack.
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Old September 15, 2007, 05:04 PM   #60
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nature boy

Quote:
Doug, I envision warning shots being fired into the air. Don't think any toddlers would be there : )
Before gettin sarcastic and acting like I'm the stupid one, remember that we have gravity...Unless you are planning on being attacked by a gang on the moon or in a vacuum...The bullet will come down and you have no control over where it lands...
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Old September 16, 2007, 11:04 PM   #61
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Hand grenade. works every time!
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Old September 17, 2007, 12:28 AM   #62
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As a future prosecutor, I would like to see a law that gives every aggressor participant of a multiple party attack (2 or more v. 1) get a mandatory minimum of 25 years...regardless of the degree of injury to the victim. Please add your thought on that along with your commentary of defending against the gang attack.
Excellent idea. The great state of TX could make something like that happen too.
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Old September 17, 2007, 12:43 AM   #63
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I've seen a few gang attacks. After living in Jersey, and in Camden (rated nations highest crime rated city in america) I've seen it all pretty much.

My advice is, do your best to stay alive. Assume they all have guns. I would dubble tap if at all possible, as fast as you can on each target, as long as they arn't running away. Seek cover is possible, reload and hope for the best again.

Often if you pull out your gun, you have to keep your eyes on the guy behind you. So moving quickly around in a circle will split up the group (which I've seen done) or bring them in closer which I've seen them do. My guess is depending on how thuggish they are, they wont back off unless a shot is fired.

So pretty much, shoot one guy, the thugs will back up a bit, you gain exit and you then have them all infront of you.

I hope I'll never have to deal with this. I've seen some of the stuff that can happen and its pretty grim.
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Old September 17, 2007, 01:02 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Hallucinator
From my understanding, most gang attacks are directed toward members of rival gangs.
For the most part, you are correct. And even that is largely misunderstood. For example, I think bike clubs go out of their way to suppress loyalty (and the effects of liquor) at places like Sturgis. After all, you're there to party, meet old friends and look at the pretty girls. And turf wars are a drag.

Having said that, I don't lose a lot of sleep worrying about a full frontal attack by the Crips. In reality, that style of crime is black on black. The Mob pretty much stays to themselves. I can't remember the last time I got crap from a Cub Scout.

What I do fear is "wilding." That is, thrill killing. You could be buying a newspaper one minute, and the next moment get caught up in a whirlwind of fists and boots.

In that kind of scenario, I think you might try to fire your pistol empty into the gang (so it cannot be used against you later) and hope you can take the survivors.

Modern life, yikes, I can't stand it. One hundred and fifty channels, nuttin' on.
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Old September 17, 2007, 02:48 AM   #65
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While I don't advocate bringing a knife to a gun fight, a knife is dangerous in a arc versus a vector. With some good escrima training, knives in close quarters could be highly effective. Knives are often highly itimidating and a few slashes may be enough to deter the attackers without taking a life. Just a thought...

I would like to believe that any DA in their right mind would not prosecute someone for defending themself against some gang thugs, but if no weapons are shown, what is the "legality" of shooting people for harassing you (up until the point they are on top of you and intiate the attack)?
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Old September 17, 2007, 10:36 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by stephen426
bringing a knife to a gun fight
If I do nothing else in this forum it will be to show how outmoded and incorrect this 'old joke' has become.

Now, an untrained teenager with his mom's steak knife may not be a credible threat, I admit that. However, the people and ideas we discuss here usually focus on adult situations and fairly effective tools.

And that's my concern here. Trust me, at contact distances, you'd better be able to draw like Wyatt Earp or 'speed rock' like Rob Leatham.

I play with knives all day long. All kinds of knives, even upper end kitchenware. And let's not forget, new knives are made from some pretty fancy-schmancy alloys. Even The Bass Pro Shops offer a new proprietary run of the classic Buck 110, made from 154-CM.

And as you go for that hawg-leg, remember that a firearm does not increase your reaction time, your strength, your tenacity, or your skill.

You make one sloppy amateurish move, and I'll latch onto you by your dojo belt and hack you up like a Christmas goose. And remember, personally, I'm not that good. Imagine yourself at the mercy of someone who is...

Thus endth that lesson.

Quote:
what is the "legality" of shooting people for harassing you
Frankly, this is going to be a concern for any confrontation with any weapon. In that regard, be sure and read Ayoob's column "Win On The Street, Win In Court," even if you do so only periodically. Lots of good info, and the great thing is that this isthe documentation of real confrontations.
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Old September 17, 2007, 01:23 PM   #67
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HMMM.

Well, I have to face these issues tomorrow. I'm going into an area to teach I'm not real jazzed about.

My solutions, legal ones at this point, are directional pepper spray, being on alert, and staying out of bad situations. Haven't decided on carrying yet.

This area has been known for groups of kids, read gangs, up to 75 in number, getting together in a parking lot.

I've also had the delight of calling the police when two grandmothers punched each other at a youth basketball game, at this same high school, 5th graders playing, and, the two families squared off, swearing, and making threats.

I have for this situation, now a video capable cell phone, as well. This has been very effective in stopping violence between students. Guess they don't want to end up on youtube.com.

This campus is known for violence, since it's huge, and, poorly patroled.

I've been trained in many forms of martial arts, and, for multiple targets here's what I'd suggest. Monkey works very well, as does Wing Chun. Southern Chinese styles are designed for small folks, often fights taking place on boats, etc. that require maintaining balance. Keep both feet on the ground, using short, percise strikes to vital areas. Monkey moves the body from high to low, giving a very difficult target to hit, while striking at the same time.

Northern styles tend to be for bigger people, in more open spaces, so, for multiple attackers they may work, if the situation is in an open area, but, they tend to teach too many kicks, and, as others have mentioned, getting your feet off the ground is not a good thing in such situations.

I suppose the real answer to this is one most are not going to be able to do, or have the will to do. You need to stay in shape, and practice on a somewhat daily basis, at least 3 times a week.

The hitting the heavy bag advice is good, but, slightly misses the point. The key to speed, and success in martial arts, or boxing, is to accept that you may die, and, from this, comes the freedom from fear that creates tightness, and slows you down. Boxing is excellent training. Learning to relax while someone good is trying to rip your head off, and hurt you, is a difficult lesson to learn. It's not much of an extension to carry this to a real fight situation, and, I've had to do it a couple times.

Moving very fast, not allowing the bad guys a rigid, easy to hit target, and, striking as fast, and to fatal or severe points are all keys to surviving this kind of attack.

I guess I'm going to have to get back in the gym, and, I don't mean just lifting weights..;.

S esq.
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Old September 17, 2007, 04:20 PM   #68
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As a future prosecutor, I would like to see a law that gives every aggressor participant of a multiple party attack (2 or more v. 1) get a mandatory minimum of 25 years...regardless of the degree of injury to the victim. Please add your thought on that along with your commentary of defending against the gang attack.
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I'll back you up on that one. I'd also add "regardless of their particular degree of participation". The mindset is the same. Just because they only kicked a victim once when their buddy kicked them six times doesn't mean they were more sympathetic, and in their mentality, they'll be planning on getting more kicks in next time.
HMMMM....Mr. Prosecutor, AKA SatanzBountyhunter...do you have any objection to this motion? Seriously, It's nice to think that a PA might be on our side for once. I suppose in court you'll be using a name more like Earnest Gibbinholtz or something
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Old September 17, 2007, 06:16 PM   #69
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Federal prosecutors are already using the RICO statutes to go after gangs. One prosecutor I've met, and, worked with in another field, has filed against a San Francisco gang with 28 members, and, he went after all of them.

He was also the guy that won the medical marijuana case in S.F.
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Old September 17, 2007, 07:02 PM   #70
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Something that tells me spraying peppers at a Hispanic gang is like trying to fend off bears with tuna sandwiches. I prefer to consult John Moses Browning, John Marlin, and Eugene Stoner for such solutions.
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Old September 17, 2007, 07:08 PM   #71
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A gang attack

sounds scary and I hope I will never face one. I have a bad back and will not go physical, unless I have to. Luckily Florida is one of those states where you don't have to run from a threat; it's legal to shoot any severe threat, including a threat to a third person, without warning the attacker first. Draw your gun early and seek cover. If they don't escape they mean business. Shoot to kill. Get your spare ammo out and running. The noise will attract the cops. If surrounded, keep turning while you grab your gun so they can't see clearly what is going on with you. If left without a gun, kick the balls of the leader. The leader is the head of the snake. The rest is just a bunch of cowards. A fierce attack is your best bet; criminals want easy victims. Hard kicks to the knees are very efficient. Break fingers as soon you get hold of a hand. Move away, don't allow them to hoard up on you, keep moving. Bite as hard as you can. Keep moving.

I like Oregon and Washington, but from what I understand, their self defense laws are for the safety of their criminals. I will not move to a state which does not allow me to pop *******s on sight. Florida is a good state. Florida looks after its people. Low taxes too.
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Old September 17, 2007, 07:18 PM   #72
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If left without a gun, kick the balls of the leader. The leader is the head of the snake. The rest is just a bunch of cowards.
I've seen a lot of gangs of which the cowards try to take over. Just my own personal experince I know to think everyone is the leader. One just speaks out for the rest of them, it's rude to talk while others are talking too.

Regardless if in that situation..do what you can to stay alive. Its ok to go for the balls, bite, slap, scratch..your buddies wont be there so you can beef up the story a bit
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Old September 17, 2007, 08:31 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Socrates
I guess I'm going to have to get back in the gym, and, I don't mean just lifting weights..;.
Not to hijack this thread, but I've started on that idea.

I was always a weights/Stairmaster kind of guy. Served me well.

Then about one year ago, I saw some advertising on our local TV for a 'conditioning' gym. Lots of guys doing some bizarre stuff. I ignored it.

But I did catch snippets of the training used by the actors getting ready to film "300." Same stuff, lots of conditioning.

But I had heard of a strange training concept called "The Weider Muscle Confusion Technique." Some weight lifters fall into a routine and stop making gains. A dramatic change-up in technique, intensity and routine seemed to pay benefits.

Last month I found a guy in our gym who was willing to be my lifting partner as we experimented with technique.

One day we raced from machine to machine. One day I picked the routine and he kept guessing. One day we stretched after an intense work-out on machines we had never used. I think next week we'll jog, then lift and top it off with a swim.

I know one thing, I have that old 'fire in the belly' to get to the gym once again. My bi's and tri's are thicker. Last week they lowered 300 pounds down onto my chest, and I slowly contained the weight as it came to rest softly on the rubber.

We talk here a lot about preparedness, and I think we mean mental acuity.

I believe active conditioning should be a part of our defensive strategy.
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Old September 17, 2007, 09:48 PM   #74
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Quote:
HMMMM....Mr. Prosecutor, AKA SatanzBountyhunter...do you have any objection to this motion? Seriously, It's nice to think that a PA might be on our side for once. I suppose in court you'll be using a name more like Earnest Gibbinholtz or something
This future Prosecutor spent 15 years as an LEO protecting the good, always encouraging firearm ownership and training for those good people and putting the hurt on the bad guys. I think being a prosecutor is a good position for making sure that those good people that defend themselves and others from society's worst aren't hassled by our judicial system. As for the SBH handle...did you see 'Ghost Rider' where he confronts the bad guys and sends them 'back to Hell' where they belong? Warms my heart.
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Old September 17, 2007, 10:30 PM   #75
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SBH/\ Of course you know I was just razzin' you - no offense. Plenty of respect here. Hope there's no hard feelings.
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