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Old August 6, 2007, 02:23 PM   #26
threegun
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The well choreographed fights on tv or in the dojo are cool to watch and perform but don't reflect reality. Five to six men attacking at once is virtually impossible to defend empty handed. If they get a hold of you or get you to the ground you are done. If 5 guys attacked at once with intent simply on grabbing you and tackling you......you are tackled. To generate real power, knockout power, you must plant. Plant even for a split second and you are caught. Miss with one blow and you are caught. Slip or slightly loose your footing and yep you are caught.

I have KO power in both hands, can grapple well, and can throw quality power kicks. That means doodly squat when bull rushed by a crowd. Multiple attackers and its time to run or draw and shoot.
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Old August 6, 2007, 03:13 PM   #27
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Yeah the bird shot, bird shot, 45 colt, slug, 45 colt combo seems like it'd do the trick.

How's the recoil on the basic 410 shell?
If you're asking about the Judge, it's not bad at all...the Taurus "ribber grip" really soaks it up. It is, however, loud, especially at an indoor range. It sounds for real like most guns sound in movies.
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Old August 7, 2007, 02:36 PM   #28
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Too bad we can't just shoot them.
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Old August 7, 2007, 03:17 PM   #29
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Like most things around here, if you are coming to the internet to find out what to do to save your bacon from X, you are going to get responses ranging from "when I was in the SEALS/Special Forces, Delta, ad. nauseuam.." to "X% of real gang members WILL do this " to "Using the praying mantis style of defense..."
Look, go to training, get books, videos, etc. Practice. Most of what you hear, read on these forums is nonsense, and quite frankly, dangerous in its stupidity.

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Old August 7, 2007, 04:06 PM   #30
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Too bad we can't just shoot them.
5 or 6 men (gang bangers) attacking you constitutes a deadly thread and should receive a deadly response..........if you cannot escape or they don't stop.
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Old August 8, 2007, 02:04 PM   #31
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If they've encircled me, they're operating from a pack mentality, and I would assume they're going to kill me and act accordingly.

I wouldn't wait for one of them to attack; rather, I would attack with maximum violence the moment one of them presented an attractive target.

Specifically, I'd make a thrusting downward kick with the bottom of my foot into a kneecap, intending to shatter it backwards. I'd crush genitals with my hands or feet. I'd rip out chunks of flesh with my teeth. I'd stick my index finger into eyesockets intent on touching brain. I'd use upward thrusts of my palm against a nose to shatter it, causing the most pain possible. I'd punch throats.

I realize this may sound "mall ninja," and listen: I'd probably still lose. However, I will not die without inflicting pain. I will cause maximum pain and damage until I fall unconscious.
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Old August 8, 2007, 02:12 PM   #32
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Back up against a wall if possible.
Why should you do this? To keep them from flanking you?

Just asking because I've always heard the expression "his back was up against a wall" and it ususally is used to indicate someone being stuck with having to do something.
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Old August 8, 2007, 05:31 PM   #33
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How is this for gang attack defense?
A friend has a 13 yr old son. He is rather small for his age. Also he looks more like 11 than 13. This gets him alot of harrassment from other boys his age in school. Kids can be very cruel. During one of these incidents 3 larger kids(bullies) had him cornered in the bathroom humiliating him and threating to kick is ass. As they converged on him with nothing in his hand but a spiral notebook he was scared to death in preparation for a beating. He then noticed that stuck in the spiraled wire of the notebook a #2 pencil which he pulled and proceeded to stab the first kid on him, then the other two as all had closed to within inches of him. Too bad for them.
This young man has never heard of Colonel Jeff Coopers seven Principles of Personal Defense, but he carried them out well- Alertness, Decisiveness, Aggressiveness, Speed, Coolness, Ruthlessness, and Surprise.
Most parents that hear of this seem as if they are alarmed by the young mans actions. "He stabbed 3 young boys". NO! "He defended himself against 3 bullies. I for one was impressed!
What do you think?
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Old August 10, 2007, 06:37 PM   #34
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Been there..

Several years ago I was working a sports show in St. Louis. It was Jan. and got dark early. I was staying at the Sheraton Hotel across the street from the Cervantes Center and my van was in their parking lot. About 5:00PM, I went to my vehicle to get some advertising material.

As I rounded the rear of the van, I saw a gang of young blacks, 5 or 6 in number. On the ground there was a old geezer (read senior citizen) and these guys were beating the sh!t out of him. One guy had a aluminum baseball bat and swung it like a golf club hitting the old man in the face. Teeth, blood, and gore sprayed almost to my van 50 feet away.

When they spotted me, I did the only sane thing I could think of... I ran like a coward in the night. There was a cop directing traffic in the street between the hotel and the Cervantes Center. I approached him and was told in no uncertain terms that he was responsible for traffic and couldn't be bothered. After I insisted, he did get on his radio and asked for assistance. Fifteen minutes later a cop car did come by and found the victim... he was DOA.

Several hours later the police contacted me at the hotel and asked if I would identify one of the bad guys. Of course, I agreed. They had me look at a black individual that I would guess was probably at least 45 years old. The perps were in their teens! No way had I ever seen this guy before and that is exactly what I told the officers.

I was never contacted again and never found out if anyone was ever charged.

So much for life in the city.

Retreat, is not cowardice.
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Old August 10, 2007, 06:57 PM   #35
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That is a interesting story, but I think you meant to say "young black men" and not "young blacks".
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Old August 10, 2007, 08:27 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fremmer
Quote:
Back up against a wall if possible.
Why should you do this? To keep them from flanking you?

Just asking because I've always heard the expression "his back was up against a wall" and it ususally is used to indicate someone being stuck with having to do something.
Fremmer, sorry I didn't reply earlier, as I must have missed your post.

In my response to the OP on page 1 of this thread, I was the first of two different people who suggested that you get your back against a wall. There is a good reason.

As part of my background, I was a close combat instructor.

I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but we used something called a RED MAN SUIT.

Actually we had 12 of them.



There are plenty of replies on this thread, each one as valid as the other. As for my opinion, I lived for 2.5 years on a mountain, training against other extremely fit, agressive Marines. The techniques associated with multiples were practiced as often as 3 to 5 times per week.

The RED MAN SUITS (they were new on the market at that time) allowed us to REALLY WAIL on each other at 75% to 90% of our strength. What this means is that the training you get (while you and your partners are wearing these) is as close to the real thing as you can get.

First as a recipient of training in this area, and then later as a trainer myself, I learned that no matter how many attackers there are, if you can get into a corner, you can basically take away the advantage that comes with numbers. As long as you are agressive, fit and more violent than your attacker, you can stay standing and fight off one after another- at least until you reach physical exhaustion. It is much harder to attack than it is to defend. The key, more often than not was sheer brutality, and STAYING on your feet. Once you go down, you are done for.

The concept of taking away the enemies' numerical advantage is, of course, nothing new. The Roman Legions used it against the so-called "barbarians" of Germany, frequently making stands against numerically superior forces. Recently a movie was made about the Spartans, and their "300" warriors, standing against tens of thousands of Persians. How did they do it? Force the attackers to funnel, so that they could not take advantage of their numbers.

It is possible to defeat numerically superior forces if you know what you're doing. Don't let anyone talk you out of trying. While your chances of getting crushed are much greater than a fair fight, a few well placed eye-gouges, vicious heel stomps, and the spirit of a mad pit bull combined with a few other skills, and your chances increase dramatically.
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Old August 13, 2007, 06:06 AM   #37
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Years ago, I survived a gang attack. I was 15, the 5 or 6 of them were 17-18 and much bigger than me and were lightly armed with sticks and whatnot. I survived, because I correctly identified the ringleader, who had six inches and nearly 100 pounds on me, and attacked him by head-butting him in the solar plexus, once he punched me in the jaw. I continued the attack past the point of sensibility, literally beating his face in with my forehead, and crushing his testicles with my hands. I believe I bit him once or twicet, too. I ignored his buddies, who were getting in each others' way trying to kick and beat me with fairly stout sticks. Once the leader was eliminated, I broke my clinch, and broke through the circle, getting distance. I'm not that fast, and kind of hurt by now, so I backpedalled, keeping them from surrounding me. I prolonged the conflict long enough to allow a good samaritan to interrupt the attack, where the rest of the kids fled.

Going berzerk is probably the only way to survive a gang who wants to harm you. Being willing to take physical damage in order to hurt someone and escape is also a requirement. Not getting yourself in that situation to begin with would be the best way, but best-laid plans don't always work.
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Old August 13, 2007, 06:22 AM   #38
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For all you guys closing in on 40 or perhaps older who are reading this. Go find a heavy bag and hit it with 20 or so FULL POWER SHOTS. Let me know how you feel afterward.

I frequently throw 10 to 15 full power three punch combos from right handed and southpaw stances. Thats 60 to 90 punches........no kicks, elbows, knees, grappling....just punches. You will be surprised at how much energy is zapped.
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Old August 13, 2007, 07:43 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120mm
...I ignored his buddies, who were getting in each others' way trying to kick and beat me with fairly stout sticks. Once the leader was eliminated, I broke my clinch, and broke through the circle,...
You instinctively executed some of the principles needed to survive (or at least increase your chances of surviving) an engagement with multiple attackers. I noticed you described the other guys getting in each other's way. I also noticed that you described yourself "breaking through the circle". In so doing, you took away much of the effect of numerical advantage. Well done. I'm sure those lessons will stay with you forever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by threegun
For all you guys closing in on 40 or perhaps older who are reading this. Go find a heavy bag and hit it with 20 or so FULL POWER SHOTS. Let me know how you feel afterward.

I frequently throw 10 to 15 full power three punch combos from right handed and southpaw stances. Thats 60 to 90 punches........no kicks, elbows, knees, grappling....just punches. You will be surprised at how much energy is zapped.

If you want to up the ante, get a sparring partner for 30 seconds of all-out-destruction. The idea is to go full bore 100% effort with your partner for 30 seconds non stop (perhaps not your FIRST time, but after you've built up). Attempt to rip your partners head off with power punches, and have him do the same to you. Of course, you should use regulation gloves and headgear, as well as a mouthpiece. This kind of training will give you the follow through and inoculation to interpersonal violence needed to survive in a real conflict. After a few sessions of this, you'll learn to keep a clear head even when being punched and rammed with shoulders. You'll also learn how to assemble a combination of punches that works. Establish a ground rule that the match ends instantly upon "first blood", or if either of you demonstrates any dizziness, i.e. "out on your feet".

When you get to run hard like this, try stringing six or eight 30-second rounds, seperated by 1 minute of rest in between each round. But be warned, training like this will get your testosterone levels sky high, making you generally more aggressive, meaner, hungrier, and more confident.




Other principles to live by:

1.) Always look for a weapon of opportunity(improvised) if you are unarmed;

-Weapons may include chairs, broomsticks, pool cues, large smooth rocks (about the size of an apple), tools, shovels, etc.

2.) If you can DRAW your weapon, and you are already grappling, certainly attempt to fire, but don't count on the weapon discharging. Grappling and jostling may have caused the slide to move, unseating a chambered round. In such cases, use your weapon as a CQB weapon, and use the grip like a mallet to crush clavicles, temples, and any other thin, bony surface. Be wary of the top of the skull, as it is very hard- unless you have a protrusion on the bottom of your grips. Also use the muzzle like a bore-punch on the eyes and nose of your opponent. These soft targets have no natural protection, and even in case of partial strikes will reduce your opponent's ability to see clearly- giving you another advantage.

3.) Fight "DIRTY". Your opponents, in attacking you as a group, are trying to kill you. Nothing is off limits anymore. Imagine yourself a mongoose in a den of rattlesnakes. Every part of your body is a weapon. As mentioned before, all bets are off. Bite like a crocodile, head butt, use the cutting edge of your heels, gouge out their eyes, and be as brutal and merciless as possible. Your life depends on it. Create a "Sphere of Nastiness" around you, in which anything that enters gets eye-gouged, bitten, spit upon, and toe-stomped. Make them want to GET AWAY from you. In the melee, use low kicks; high kicks will get you swept and tackled. If you are being charged at, the number one way to stop an attacker's advance is a front kick to the attacker's hips as he is advancing. This will stop them every time, and I've seen it work against 245lbs + professional fighters. After stopping their charge, welcome them into your "Sphere of Nastiness" with a proper greeting.
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Old August 13, 2007, 11:13 AM   #40
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If you want to up the ante, get a sparring partner for 30 seconds of all-out-destruction.
A few years back a coworker friend (much younger and bigger btw) and I started to wrestle. I was holding my own quite well until about 30 seconds into the event. Up until my complete collapse from sheer exhaustion at the 30second mark I could have choked him out or applied an arm bar but it was just for fun. He was amazed at my strenght and at how fast it disappeared LOL. I was giving up 50 pounds or so and 10 years.

At my age and endurance levels fighting hand to hand with more than one man is no longer an option.
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Old August 13, 2007, 12:11 PM   #41
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Identify the leader (there is always a leader) and attack him rapidly, brutally and remorselesslly. The others will usually loose their nerve.
Good Advice! You want each of his buddies to say "I don't want that happenning to me!" The best method would be the creation of multiple sucking chest wounds in the main attacker but if you do not have a gun then use what you got.

Musketeers #1 Rule of Unarmed Combat: One only fights barehanded when naked and all the furniture is bolted to the floor. There is almost always something harder than your hand around to hit someone with. Use it and as another poster stated, go beyond the point of reason. Leave the main attacker a pasty smear. There are no rules when it is 2+ on 1.

Accept that you are going to get hurt, possibly killed. Focus on doign as much damage as possible and then use the opportuntiy to get away. Bite, Kick, Tear, Eye Gouge, your only hope is to make the drawbacks of attacking you enough to dissaude others.
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Old August 21, 2007, 11:18 PM   #42
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Always remember this, when in doubt as to whether or not using a weapon is justifiable:

It is better to be judged by 12, then carried out by 6.
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Old August 23, 2007, 01:39 AM   #43
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In unfair fights, no type of fighting is unfair. I realize the movie effect some hope to achieve, I would honestly prioritize things:

1. Get the hell out of Dodge.
2. Make a hole, and the get the hell out of Dodge.

If you honestly can't get away or use one step to get to that point, do everything possible to discourage the assailents. Whatever you do, every action you make should be towards getting to the nearest source of civilization.

This is all considering a firearm is not present. If one is available, and time and situation permited, I would draw, yell to stop, fire a warning shot, and if they still advance or move in a threatening way, or in a manner similar to drawing a weapon, I would aim center mass and pull the trigger (the steps could obviously be skipped or abbreviated depending on the situation). If one dead doesn't stop them, they're not going to be discouraged. Fire until they run.
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Old August 23, 2007, 11:57 AM   #44
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Identify the leader (there is always a leader) and attack him rapidly, brutally and remorselesslly. The others will usually loose their nerve.
Try this and you will probably get beat senseless if not killed outright.

Best defense:

Back your butt into a corner, draw your pistol, and start shooting!
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Old September 14, 2007, 07:49 PM   #45
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My answer will probably be the wrong one but here goes. Crossing the street or going down another one will be the first thing I'd like to do. If its a bunch of young kids, (usually the case in my city) running is not an option because I'm almost fifty and out of shape. If they make clear that they intend to do me physical harm I'm going on the offensive. I hope that a warning shot into the air (if I have time to fire one) would change their minds. Hopefully someone would call the police after hearing my shot and they would get there in time. If not, I'll do what I have to. These gangs usually beat you senseless to the point that you have to be hospitalized or they beat you to death.

Last edited by TheNatureBoy; September 15, 2007 at 05:56 AM.
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Old September 15, 2007, 01:51 AM   #46
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yea

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Identify the leader (there is always a leader) and attack him rapidly, brutally and remorselesslly. The others will usually loose their nerve
I saw this many times working as a bouncer. It is dang effective. Especially if you are smaller than the 'leader'
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Old September 15, 2007, 01:55 AM   #47
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??

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I hope that a warning shot (if I have time to fire one) would change their minds. Hopefully someone would call the police after hearing my shot and they would get there in time
And what do you do when your 'warning shot' hits the little toddler playing on the swingset in his backyard?
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Old September 15, 2007, 03:05 AM   #48
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I have been the unfortunate reciepiant of a multiple attack.

The "Attack the leader" Advice is good advice.

"No such thing as fighting dirty" is another.

Avoid such situations at all costs. No such thing as a coward when faced with odds like that. Don't let ego get in the way of survival.

In my situation I grabbed the main guy and concentrated on him. If I was going to buy it then, I was going to make sure I took him with me. If you have a hold on an arm, BREAK IT. Clear shot to his eyes, take them. Smash him in his nuts if you get a chance. It's your life our theirs.
I wish I could tell you that I fought my way out of the pile of 5 guys that were on me, or that my so called friends came to my rescue in time and chased those guys off, but the truth of the matter is I got my ass handed to me that night with deep lacerations on my back and a mild concussion, and I got pounded till my lights went out, but not before I fractured that guys skull on the pavement. By the time the cops showed up we were the only 2 on the scene. I was lucky and I admit it. Of course this happened when I was in college and before I carried any type of defense. I started carrying ever since.

No school training can prepare you 100% for such an incident. Just show no mercy, they won't show you any and always remember that YOUR LIFE is worth WAY more than any of theirs. Fight like your life depends on it, because this isn't high school...it probably does.

**And on the subject of "Warning Shots"**
Draw your weapon ONLY if you are 100% committed to use it. That first shot goes into the first guy you advances towards you to cause you harm.

Take care and stay safe.
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Old September 15, 2007, 03:38 AM   #49
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any 9x19mm with good ammo

any 9mm (even a subcompact G26) will allow you to quickly put two (or even three G17, CZ75 etc) rounds into each of the 5-6 BGs. Practice stuff like el presidente (an IPSC standard drill) and you will get the skills.

If such situation is brewing up. I still advocate a warning shot if there still is enough time to get real aggressive later on. I know many people will bash me here for that but I don't care. Warning shots have help me save several lives so far without hurting anybody. It sober's the gang up rapidly. You become a totally non-interesting victim in 0,75 seconds. And their ears ring. your's wont because you are on alert and therefore protected by auditory exclusion. They aren't because they are surprised.
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Old September 15, 2007, 03:44 AM   #50
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every situation is different the best advise i can think of is be mindful of you suroundings do what you can to take away their advantage dont let them surround you if they do bulldog one of them to break through, if he grabs or stops you whip him around throw him in the midle ,all is fair in an out numbered situation fight dirty use what you can as a weapon if you are unarmed a set of keys between the fingers can deal devastating perhaps deadly blow to the neck or face.
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