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Old August 4, 2007, 11:18 PM   #1
SatanzBountyHunter
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Defending Against Gang Attack

I keep seeing a trend among degenerates to attack people 5-6 to 1, pummel/kick them to the ground and rob them as an afterthought. It seems like the victims of these coward attacks never have a chance.

These clowns surround their victim 360 Degrees and swarm them.

My question is this: Are there any current training techniques/disciplines geared specifically for this type of threat in handgun, knife or impact weapon, or martial arts?

I understand situational awareness and addressing multiple targets on the range, but being circled is something different if the situation gets out of hand or you are unarmed.

All ideas and observations welcome
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Old August 4, 2007, 11:21 PM   #2
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If you can spot the attack coming from a distance, do not allow them to circle you. If they are closing in and you think it's too late...hmmm...not sure. I'd have to play that one by ewar I guess. I imagine most would start to scatter after I blew of the first few rounds...
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Old August 5, 2007, 12:07 AM   #3
JoeBlackSpade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SatanzBountyHunter
My question is this: Are there any current training techniques/disciplines geared specifically for this type of threat in handgun, knife or impact weapon, or martial arts?
Yes. The training is hard to find. A good Krav Maga instructor can teach a good deal on this. Writing about this could fill many chapters in a book, however...


Here's the basics-


when faced with multiples at close range, constantly move your body so that you are forcing them to line up. In training, we called it "Break the Circle". That means exactly what it sounds like: Constantly move out of whatever ring your attackers are trying to close up around you, by breaking through between two of your attackers. If one of the attackers is physically small or weak, you can shove and redirect him into the path of the others. Of course the entire engagement, you should be firing. If your weapon has completely failed, you should be using it (or any other improvised weapon) with as much lethal force as you can muster, striking temples, and the top of the skull with the grip, in a pounding motion. Combat at this range is as violent as it comes.


Utilize terrain and surroundings. Back up against a wall if possible. Stay on your feet at all costs. If you lose control of your weapon strike at the eyes as hard as you can; imagine you are trying to drive your fingers through oranges.

The key to surviving in this kind of scenario is to take away the advantage of numbers by never allowing them to surround you, and never going down to the ground, where you can be stomped. Stomping is the most likely way you are going to be killed by an unarmed attacker- outside of having your own weapon used against you.
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Old August 5, 2007, 12:27 AM   #4
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If you can see them coming toward you get out of where you are at. This reminds me of the zombie threads.......guys attack at once and your not acting in a movie, your getting a butt kicking.
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Old August 5, 2007, 01:26 AM   #5
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Well, I got jumped by three very large, very drunk, and high, black guys that wanted to take out their anger with Mel's Alley bowling manager, on the nearest white guy.

They followed me into the bathroom, and, tried to scare me. I was in excellent shape at the time, and, here is what got me out of it. At close quarters, I have the advantage, since anything I strike is the enemy. They have to worry about my slipping, and, hitting or shooting each other. I tried to push myself out and through, watching everyone for weapons. Guy pulled a Walther PPK/S. That got my attention. I followed the gun, and made sure the muzzle never pointed at me. Since up to that point, no one had hit me, I had not decided to take the step to try and kill them. The guy used it as a club, hitting me over the head. I used the blow to sink down, on my haunches, like I was really hurt, yelling the entire time. At that time, they decided it wasn't as much fun as they thought, so they took off. I was well trained in Kenpo, and I've had dinner a number of times with the late Ed Parker, and Tino Temescululo. Along with that, Wing Chun is also very effective. Both styles are designed for close in fighting, and, using elbows and hand strikes you can do severe damage in a very short period of time. Think systems designed for fighting in a phone booth, and you get the idea.

Few things went through my mind: Good as day to die as any. If the thing started, I was going to hit vital points, and try to do as much damage as possible. Plus, try and stay close to them, so they didn't have much room, and, where I could use elbows, etc. at close range. Don't stay at one height, too easy a target. CATCH THEM BY SURPRISE.
Usually bullies are used to a certain pattern of response from their victims, which prevokes a reaction from them.
When you don't act as they expect, emotionally, or physically, it throws them off...
Worked this time...The goal is not to win the fight, but survive. Also, when you make the commitment, you stop thinking, and, try and do as much damage as quickly as you possible can, WITHOUT THINKING. If I die, I want them going with me. I was lucky, and, I believe my endless training saved my life, because I didn't prevoke them, because I reacted differently then they expected.

This is NOT the first time I've been jumped, nor the first time I got out of harms way, because of being very well trained, and, the guy, on a primal level, knowing something was not going to go his way.

In general, when you have bigger guys, you aim at points that are vital, but, you have to make the commitment that you are going to blind or kill them. Making piece with that commitment is the hard part, and, knowing that you are justified in doing so, as well.

Now, I carry directional pepper spray, not the general stuff, but something I can hit a guys face with. I also carry a general spray and run, small container. I also carry a .357 Magnum, with speed loader. I also don't bowl late at night, within 5 minutes cruise of West Oakland, and Fruitvale...

Dr S

To answer the question: remedies I've thought of:
Get a can of bear spray, paint it like a fire extingusher, and keep it where you can easily get to it, for car jackings.
Be aware of your surroundings, and don't get yourself in situations where you can be surrounded. Carry a large caliber handgun, with multiple clips, when going into a dangerous area, along with a backup piece. I'd carry my 45 Super, plus my 357 snubbie, and maybe a Glock 30 if going into certain parts of LA.

If you really think you are heading into a fight, bring a rifle or shotgun...

Get a bullet proof vest, and wear it.
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Old August 5, 2007, 01:58 AM   #6
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I have always wonder what the legality of carrying a deactivated hand grenade is. I figure pulling out an old pineapple pulling the pin and trying not to blink first would scare off a group of attackers better than anything else.
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Old August 5, 2007, 05:31 AM   #7
C Carman
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We used to do 2 on 1 and even 3 on 1 sparring at our Kempo school. It was an interesting experience to say the least. The conclusion we would almost always come back to was that, when unarmed, the only way to survive was to be hyper aggressive. When a group of attackers know they have better numbers, they know they have the advantage. They are very surprised when the single guy comes at them. I've seen this idea in practice in a video with pro skater Mike Vallely. Outside of a bar a group surrounded him. Within a few seconds he had put five guys on the ground and the rest were running away. He's not a great fighter, or a giant of man. He just saw trouble coming. When the group started to circle him he picked out the leader and went after him first.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying this is an easy situation to deal with. Odds are you will be hurting. But if you are in an unavoidable situation where you know you're fighting for your life it seems to me the best defense is a good offense.

As a side note we had to stop the 2 on 1 sparring at our school, the attacker teams were always getting injured.
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Old August 5, 2007, 07:12 AM   #8
doncameron
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If you see the attack coming......RUN if you can.
If you are already surrounded, Back up to the biggest vehicle you can get to.
always go for the smallest in the group to attack, and break the encirclement
and run .
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Old August 5, 2007, 07:29 AM   #9
mattro
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Quote:
The conclusion we would almost always come back to was that, when unarmed, the only way to survive was to be hyper aggressive.
Same thing applies when you ARE ARMED, especially if armed and surrounded by multiple bg's.

If you feel you have to pull your firearm, and feel it is time to pull the trigger, you then get hyper aggressive.

I think this is the best answer to the original post of this thread. Alway carry a firearm, be prepared to get hyper aggressive.

Must thugs are not prepared for an target to pull out a 45 and start scanning the bad guys for any firearms. This shock would probably get you out of most situations.

Get aggressive!

imo
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Old August 5, 2007, 07:36 AM   #10
tegemu
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Identify the leader (there is always a leader) and attack him rapidly, brutally and remorselesslly. The others will usually loose their nerve.
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Old August 5, 2007, 09:42 AM   #11
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The advice given here is mostly good. But lets understand the mentality of a gang assault. They attack someone who they think is defenseless as a group because as individuals they are basically cowards. When you display preparedness and a weapon they will, about %98 of the time, disperse. If they don't do it then they will when you drop the closest one to you.

A short time ago there was a man in Cleveland who was attacked by a group of street yutt's ( Young, Utterly Thoughtless Thugs) he was stabbed in the back. He pulled the knife from his back and challenged them with it, they fled. Coward punks.

What they will sometimes do is have one of the group run up and sucker punch you. After you are on the ground they will swarm you. That's when you draw and fire from the ground. That's one of the reasons I don't like behind the back carry. Remember that two after incident factors will show in your defense. One, you have a wound of some kind. Two, when the cops pick up the garbage the autopsies will show that the rounds entered in an upward track. This will prove that a disparity of force existed and that you where unable to flee. Practice drawing and firing from the ground.
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Old August 5, 2007, 10:38 AM   #12
strong
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I think the biggest preventative measure is to know your surroundings.

If you see a bunch of guys hanging around don't walk through that area. If you do fall victim to a gang initiation type deal there is not much you can do because like someone said it is usually a sucker punch then everyone kicking you. You won't have time to react.
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Old August 5, 2007, 11:16 AM   #13
Michael Anthony
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Oh this is an easy one. Gun-kata!

Watch this for an example, the end in particular applies to your scenario.
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Old August 5, 2007, 11:36 AM   #14
Dwight55
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I'm with tegemu on this one, . . . and if I don't ID a leader quick, . . . the first one I grab is the one I'm hurting the most.

A long time ago, . . . all I could get ahold of was this guy's leg, . . . I sank my pearly whites into that calf muscle, . . . and the mob dispersed, . . . pronto.

May God bless,
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Old August 5, 2007, 12:20 PM   #15
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If you are the victim of a gang attack, do what they taught us in the Army if we were ambushed. Attack, immediately and ferociously. Have your mind made up in advance that if you are attacked you will use the most lethal and fastest weapon you have. And use it first. If you worry about the legal consequences of your actions, you lose. And your widow will have to deal with the aftermath.

Take out the nearest BG and move on to the next. Shoot for the head, double tap and acquire the next target. Stop only when there is no more threat. Then hire a lawyer and shut up! When the cops come they will arrest you. Tell them you were attacked and defended yourself. If they question you, call a lawyer before answering ANY questions. Do not try to justify yourself and do not tell them anything about who, what, where, why, or when. You need to defend yourself from the police as well as the bad guys.

ANYTHING YOU SAY WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU. Prosecuting attorneys need to win convictions for their own career advancement. Say nothing except "I want a lawyer". This will **** off the police, but they are not your friend anyway, they work for the system. A lawyer is your best chance to come out of this whole. Even then you will lose something, money, your gun, some time, a lot of anguish. Get a lawyer immediately. Never think that because you were right, you have nothing to fear. You do!

But, before anything else, be sure that you are in imminent danger of death before you draw.
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Old August 5, 2007, 04:14 PM   #16
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Starting the conflict is an important issue. Some groups are not cowards, and, have a code of conduct. Most noteable is the Hell's Angels. If you start a fight with them, you better kill all present, then get into witness protection, because they will come for you, and your family.

Good news is they dread the publicity that occurs with such fights, and will kill their own, if their actions gather unwanted publicity.

Had a case in the SFDA's office where that's exactly what happened...

Dr S
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Old August 5, 2007, 04:21 PM   #17
CyberSEAL
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Quote:
when faced with multiples at close range, constantly move your body so that you are forcing them to line up. In training, we called it "Break the Circle". That means exactly what it sounds like: Constantly move out of whatever ring your attackers are trying to close up around you, by breaking through between two of your attackers.
They teach this in Thai Boxing and several other forms of MMA as well.
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Old August 5, 2007, 05:10 PM   #18
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Get a can of bear spray, paint it like a fire extingusher, and keep it where you can easily get to it, for car jackings.
AFAIK, in many states, it's a felony to use that on humans, no matter the reason. Your painted extinguisher would look cute as Exhibit A in the civil trial, too, when they "can't work because of sinus injury".

For carjackings, I have a Taurus Judge.
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Old August 5, 2007, 05:50 PM   #19
strong
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Yeah the bird shot, bird shot, 45 colt, slug, 45 colt combo seems like it'd do the trick.

How's the recoil on the basic 410 shell?
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Old August 5, 2007, 06:19 PM   #20
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Unless you are ensconced in a safe-room type facility during a home invasion (or one of 300 Spartan warriors, and we know how that turned out), I don't think there is a way to successfully repulse a gang attack. Not many of us have the authority to walk around with a pump shotgun.

In a realistic scenario, we would have to have something like a reliable SW 59 or a big-box Glock to make sure we have enough ammo. Unless you are a trained IPSC shooter, trying a tact-reload under duress is probably not a good idea.

And as a citizen, you will be held accountable for every round you fire.

This may sound wimpy, but I believe the only realistic gang attack advice is to always walk in condition yellow, have an escape plan, shield your home in a multi-layered strategy and become comfortable with the fact you're not Chuck Norris.

The best handgun in the world is of no use if your aggressors 'de-fang the snake' or are simply better fighters.

And speaking from experience, I never had any fear of one mouthy townie if my riding buddies and I were enjoying a lemonade or similar beverage.
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Old August 5, 2007, 08:41 PM   #21
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SEAL: Depending on what years you served, you probably went through S.C.A.R.S. training, especially in the early 90's. I went through S.C.A.R.S. material, and have rarely seen a more comprehensive and well rounded system. I still have a book and several VHS tapes on the system.

If you've been out for a while, you might be interested in knowing that Direct Action has expanded their material:

http://www.scars.com/SCARS/dacMain.jsp
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Old August 5, 2007, 10:22 PM   #22
el_diabl0
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Yes. The training is hard to find. A good Krav Maga instructor can teach a good deal on this.

That's exactly what I thought of at first. A good friend of mine is ex-ranger and also big into martial arts. He loaned me his Krav Maga DVD's not too long ago. Excellent, no-nonsense self defense. I've had a couple years Kenpo training and liked Krav Maga better. I just need to find someone to train with.

And remember to get your back up against a wall!
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Old August 5, 2007, 10:34 PM   #23
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I've had a couple years Kenpo training and liked Krav Maga better. I just need to find someone to train with.
There's several opportunities for you here
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Old August 5, 2007, 10:54 PM   #24
el_diabl0
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That was easy, thx capt! I'll check them out.

I was just in your neck of the woods a few weeks ago at Jefferson Lake SP doing some camping. Nice quiet place to go with the wife and dog. My dog isn't very social, so the fewer people around the better.
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Old August 5, 2007, 11:38 PM   #25
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uh-oh

I love living in central America, because I am allowed to answer this thread with three simple words. Sawed Off Shotgun!
For those of you stuck back home in the states, I would save glock 17 in conjunction with a tomahawk.

I have had several mugging attempts (from groups of people) and agree with the previously made suggestion that gangs will many times (not always) lose heart after seeing a serious threat to their own lives.
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