The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 28, 2008, 09:22 AM   #101
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
Quote:
Actually it does matter if he is a criminal and a member of an ongoing criminal enterprise.
Why?
If he was not engaged in criminal activity at the time of the crime why should he not be allowed to defend himself just as any other law abiding person
Quote:
First of all - I do not think any criminals are allowed to posses firearms.
Source?
Was he a convicted felon was he engaged in criminal activity at the time?
If not what is the prohibition on alleged criminals owning guns

Quote:
Second of all - how would you like it - if a criminal "defending" himself from other criminals shooting indiscriminately shoots up your house and injures your SO, dogs and kid?
I missed that in the articles.
But what if the preacher next door defends his home by shooting indiscriminately and hits something he didn't want to
That gonna make you feel any better?
But regardless being a criminal does not take away your right to life and self defense, until the state says it does
How I, or you, feel about it has nothing to do with nothing
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Old January 28, 2008, 11:31 AM   #102
Perldog007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2007
Location: Estados Unitas / United States
Posts: 968
I can't condone giving chase after a threat has ended unless you are empowered and duty bound to make an arrest, i.e. LEO. Even in armed security, generally once they are off the property it's time to let the taxpayer funded types deal with it.

Having said that don't think I will ever sit on a jury for a case like this. It would be very hard for me to condemn somebody who was minding their own business and was beset by armed home invaders.

Personally from the information given I think the brother went too far. The prosecutor would have to have a really good day to convince me to vote guilty though.
Perldog007 is offline  
Old February 10, 2008, 09:10 PM   #103
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,506
Where am I missing that he chased them down the street? According to post #24, an update, it sounds like he shot maybe from his property at the vehicle. Did I miss another update? It sounds like he actually tried to shoot out the tires to stop them. That obviously didn't keep them from leaving, so he fired into the vehicle, hitting a few. You can't do that in Michigan, but it sounds like you can in Texas. Tell you something, though. If that had happened in Michigan, he WOULD go to trial. And, if I was on that jury, he would be acquitted or I'd hang the jury.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old February 12, 2008, 08:33 AM   #104
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,080
"*I* keep a lot of cash in my gun safe. If four gang-bangers raid my house and try to force me to open my safe, does that automatically make ME a drug-dealer or criminal myself?"

+1

Same here. Sometimes I am required to travel out of the country on very short notice. Some of these places are not credit card friendly.
thallub is offline  
Old February 12, 2008, 08:44 AM   #105
tegemu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2005
Location: Orange Park, Fla
Posts: 1,019
Pursuit = Bad shoot.
__________________
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf. - George Orwell
tegemu is offline  
Old February 12, 2008, 11:37 AM   #106
Thumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2000
Location: Sugar Land, Tx
Posts: 1,507
Quote:
I can't condone giving chase after a threat
Legally or morally? Threat to what? The individual's health or the threat of escaping with the individual's property?

In Texas, both are defenses.
__________________
Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher
Thumper is offline  
Old February 12, 2008, 01:19 PM   #107
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,080
In Texas self-defense stuff and protection of property stuff are a lot different than most other states. There was a case where an auto re-possession guy hooked up to a car at night. The car owner shot and killed the guy. The shooter was found not guilty because of a law that applies to protection of property at night.

Think of OK of being just like Texas with one possible exception. In OK the prosecutor does not have to take the case to a grand jury. In OK the family of the deceased perp is not allowed to sure in civil court.
thallub is offline  
Old February 13, 2008, 01:29 PM   #108
Yellowfin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2007
Location: West Upstate NY
Posts: 2,303
Does the possibility of the criminal returning later constitute sufficient threat? Repeat visits do happen.
Yellowfin is offline  
Old February 13, 2008, 01:36 PM   #109
Thumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2000
Location: Sugar Land, Tx
Posts: 1,507
Doesn't matter if the criminals were escaping with property, though that's not clear in this case.

As noted a number of times before, a lot of folks in this thread are (mistakenly) applying their own state defense laws to Texas.
__________________
Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher
Thumper is offline  
Old February 14, 2008, 01:30 AM   #110
P95GI180
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 14, 2008
Posts: 5
If he had not killed them, they would have likely come back, and seek revenge, rob, kill rape, or mame someone else. He did the right thing. By pursuing and taking out atleast three of the attackers, he saved many more lives, property, and tax money by preventing future crimes the thugs would have commited. He should get a medal.

But it may have been illegal for him to pursue, then he should suffer the consequence for breaking the law.
P95GI180 is offline  
Old February 14, 2008, 01:53 AM   #111
Catchabullet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2008
Location: Arizona
Posts: 223
one thing....

whose to say they wouldn't have come back????
__________________
Connor: [picking out weapons and gear] Do ya know what we need, man? Some rope.
Murphy: Absolutely. What are you, insane?
Connor: No I ain't. Charlie Bronson's always got rope.
Catchabullet is offline  
Old February 14, 2008, 08:40 AM   #112
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,080
"As noted a number of times before, a lot of folks in this thread are (mistakenly) applying their own state defense laws to Texas."

Same thing happens on all the sites. Folks just do not understand that Texas (and OK) law is much different from what they are used to.
thallub is offline  
Old February 14, 2008, 01:08 PM   #113
BloodyBucket03
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2005
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 188
If I was in his situation I would have defended my home and once the armed men retreated I would have stopped. In my state of Pennsylvania he would be going to prison. It would be nice to get rid of scum like that of the face of this earth but chasing down criminals and having a shoot out in the street is not safe and its not the OK corral.
__________________
"Better to fight for something than live for nothing."-General George S. Patton
"He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and "if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buyone.'' Luke 22:36
BloodyBucket03 is offline  
Old February 19, 2008, 11:57 AM   #114
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
Quote:
whose to say they wouldn't have come back????
Does even Texas law permit shooting someone for what they might do later?
If that's the case then the antis are right
Guns should all be confiscated because
Whose to say that we all wont go a a shooting spree next week?
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Old February 19, 2008, 12:31 PM   #115
trooper3385
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: South Texas
Posts: 797
I commend him for protecting his property, but what would you say if he killed one of your family members with a stray bullet he fired while chasing them down the road shooting at them.?
trooper3385 is offline  
Old February 22, 2008, 07:03 PM   #116
boss400
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2008
Posts: 10
do ya'll think that if 4 heavy armed men break in your home their intensions are to kill you and your family steal everythng you have. i might run them down and kill everyone to so they can't come back and get revenage
boss400 is offline  
Old February 23, 2008, 10:50 AM   #117
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
I might go out and hunt down the ones that get away, but that don't make it legal
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Old February 23, 2008, 01:11 PM   #118
Thumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2000
Location: Sugar Land, Tx
Posts: 1,507
Quote:
Does even Texas law permit shooting someone for what they might do later?
No. Texas law allows for deadly force to recover escaping property. I don't know if the bad guys were getting away with any of his goods, though.
__________________
Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher
Thumper is offline  
Old February 23, 2008, 03:44 PM   #119
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
Quote:
No. Texas law allows for deadly force to recover escaping property. I don't know if the bad guys were getting away with any of his goods, though.
__________________
Besides the fact that the article mentions only an attempt to break in and makes no mention of stolen property, which you yourself claim no knowledge of
Your statement has absolutely nothing to do with the comment of mine that you quoted
It is easy to find the motivation for my comment because I quoted it in my post

Further can you link me to the statute that allows for pursuing burglers off your property and shooting them to recover your stolen goods
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Old February 23, 2008, 04:15 PM   #120
Thumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2000
Location: Sugar Land, Tx
Posts: 1,507
Please see Section 9.42.of the Texas Penal Code, specifically DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY.

Quote:
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery
, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property
; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Emphasis mine.
__________________
Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher
Thumper is offline  
Old February 23, 2008, 10:23 PM   #121
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
Quote:
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property
From the same penal code

§ 9.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Custody" has the meaning assigned by Section
38.01.
(2) "Escape" has the meaning assigned by Section
38.01.

From section 38.01
(2) "Escape" means unauthorized departure from
custody or failure to return to custody following temporary leave
for a specific purpose or limited period or leave that is part of an
intermittent sentence, but does not include a violation of
conditions of community supervision or parole other than conditions
that impose a period of confinement in a secure correctional
facility.

Not that that means anything

But again I ask you to provide the statute that allows a person to leave his property to pursue the thief, especially to get involved in a vehicular pursuit

I would also like to know what if anything any of this has to do with the comment of mine that you chose to address
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Old February 23, 2008, 10:31 PM   #122
Thumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2000
Location: Sugar Land, Tx
Posts: 1,507
It's self explanatory there, joab. I quoted a question you asked, then answered it with the word 'no.' I understand you have an argumentative nature, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

Not sure why you also made note of portions of the code you admit are irrelevent.

The further question you pose:

Quote:
But again I ask you to provide the statute that allows a person to leave his property to pursue the thief, especially to get involved in a vehicular pursuit
As far as I can read, the defense doesn't disallow you from leaving your property to attempt to recover your stolen goods.

In fact, in the case law cited in my CHL class, a Texas homeowner followed a thief several blocks with his deer rifle, then used a handy mailbox as an expedient rest to center punch the guy as he ran under a streetlight.

Wish I could cite you the case, but I don't have it. Perhaps someone else can.
__________________
Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher
Thumper is offline  
Old February 23, 2008, 10:43 PM   #123
mountainclmbr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2007
Location: On a mountain in the Colorado Rockies
Posts: 966
I think the police would have done the same thing by persuing. This person, I am assuming is a tax payer, therefore the police are his civil servants. When a citizen can't do what their paid servants can do there is a serious problem.
__________________
"The unfettered free market has been the most radically destructive force in American life in the last generation." - Hillary Clinton
mountainclmbr is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 01:15 AM   #124
BigO01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Posts: 138
As far as I'm concerned they started a war with the homeowner and he finished it .

Just that simple .

Give the guy a medal and a free thousand rounds of ammo for his gun .
BigO01 is offline  
Old February 24, 2008, 10:18 AM   #125
joab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
Quote:
I understand you have an argumentative nature, but you're barking up the wrong tree.
If I am the one with the argumentative natire why was it you that started this by quoting me and then making a totally irrelevant comment regarding the comment I made

I never said that the info I gave was irrelevant, you however present a set of statutes that may or may not support shooting a thief when there is absolutely no indication that the BGs stole anything or that they even managed to actually gain entrance to the home in the first place
I have asked several times why you picked me out to do that

The penal code you posted clearly states that for the purpose of the section you posted the definition for word "escape" would coincide with the definition given in section 38.01
Quote:
§ 9.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:
(1) "Custody" has the meaning assigned by Section
38.01.
(2) "Escape" has the meaning assigned by Section
38.01.
I then gave you that definition, which makes no mention of pursuing off property in a vehicle

Nowhere in that 901 does it give permission for an ordinary citizen to get into a vehicular pursuit to hunt down and kill people who may or may not have committed a burglary on their property
The statute you provided is not one of disallowance it is a specific set of allowances

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned they started a war with the homeowner and he finished it .
I agree, but that doesn't mean that his actions are condoned by law
__________________
Joab the Bugman
Founding member- Lords of Pomposity
It's a Yankee Doodle thing
joab is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13115 seconds with 7 queries