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Old July 8, 2007, 07:06 AM   #26
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Old July 8, 2007, 10:14 AM   #27
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HK isnt pushing the MP5 as much anymore as they have came out with what they considered its replacement..the UMP, and then there is the MP7A1 that Norway is in the process of as we speak getting rid of all thier MP5's and changing over to the HK MP7A1

Having took HK's tactical training, and MP5 school at the Height of the MP5 wave of popularity in the late 1980's I can say it is a decent gun, but not one that is perfect or without drawbacks...Having shot the Colt M16 9mm SMG side by side with MP5s....the manual of arms is much faster with the Colt (Thats why the DEA went with the Colt 9mm SMG at the Time)
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Old July 8, 2007, 11:28 AM   #28
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The ultimate weapon....The MP5
It is an outstanding subgun, but as a subgun, it has all sorts of limitations. The short barreld MP5s have about the same accuracy as Glocks of the same barrel length. It isn't that the MP5s are more accuracte, but that shoulder-fired weapons with a longer sight radius are easier to shoot accurately.

It is a CQB kind of gun that won't defeat body armor. If that is what you need, then they are great.
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Old July 8, 2007, 01:05 PM   #29
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It's accurate, reliable, and has good sights. It's also a bit on the heavy side, expensive to buy and fix, and doesn't have a bolt hold open device on the last shot.

Good gun overall, but they wouldn't be my first pick for a SMG. As for "ultimate"...
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Old July 10, 2007, 09:48 PM   #30
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Why would someone what to take a longer than pistol range shot with an MP5 anyway? and BOY LET ME TELL YOU, they are WAY more accurate (just having a stock and stability) than a Glock of the same barrel length.
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Old July 10, 2007, 10:21 PM   #31
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Why would someone what to take a longer than pistol range shot with an MP5 anyway? and BOY LET ME TELL YOU, they are WAY more accurate (just having a stock and stability) than a Glock of the same barrel length.
Yes, but would it be more "accurate" than a Glock with a shoulder stock? I don't think so. In reality, however, you aren't actually talking about accuracy.

The stock in no way affects accuracy, just marksmanship. When referring to accuracy in guns, accuracy is the mechanical ability of the gun in putting bullets on target. This is a trait of the gun itself, regardless of the shooter. Marksmanship is a person's ability to land bullets on target with a given gun.

So the stock and stability don't affect the gun's accuracy, just the shooter's ability to be able to perform.

Similarly, sight radius, scopes, properly mounted bipods, slings, etc. don't actually affect accuracy.

So, unless HK MP5s with same length barrels as Glocks have some sort of better rifling or lockup, then the MP5 isn't going to be significantly different or better than the Glock in terms of accuracy.
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Old July 11, 2007, 01:09 AM   #32
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Huh? An MP5 as a primary weapon? What kind of holster would you put it in? How do you plan on getting in and out of a patrol car with that thing on a regualar basis.

Finally, the worst argument for an idea is to say the "British and Europeans" have learned"...don't forget, it wasn't that long ago that the British decided that their cops should have guns in the first place.

Full-auto is overrated and totally unnecessary for officers on regular patrol.
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Old July 11, 2007, 10:51 PM   #33
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Primary weapon

People that use the MP5 for what it was actually designed, it is the primary weapon. This was designed with the SOCOM (or like similar) specialist in mind, not the every day patrol officer. You are verrrrrrry correct in that the MP5 is NOT a primary weapon for Beat LEO's, nor should a 'UNI' carry full auto in their cruisers.

What would the news and media think, therefore the rest of America, if an officer shot a gas-station robber 16 times with a full auto weapon? They arn't going to care that the robber was shooting at the cop, they will crucify the officer for using 'excessive force' and for using a fully automatic 'assault weapon'.

Full auto is for ERT and SWAT. Even then, when you really look at a full auto's effectiveness, it's really overkill and unnecessary there too. Hell your HRT teams in the military don't even use full auto for CQB anymore.
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Old July 13, 2007, 02:06 PM   #34
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Very versatile gun, IMO.

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Old July 13, 2007, 08:47 PM   #35
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MP5 History...

The MP5 was first designed by Heckler & Koch, Germany in 1966 as the HK54. The '5' meaning submachine gun and the '4' identifies it as being chambered in the 9x19 Parabellum (the 9mm round then was exceptionally hot, in today’s standards (US) it would be considered a 9mm +P or +P+). West Germany's Government changed the name to Maschinenpistole 5 or Machine Pistol 5. MP5 for short. West Germany used it in LE and Border Guard rolls.
It was first introduced to CAPT Richard Marcinko in 1980 when CAPT(SEAL/PJ) Marcinko formed SEAL Team 6, by Germany's GSG9 (Grenzschutzgruppe 9 or Border Guards 9) - Germany's elite Counter Terrorism Force (today they are regarded as being some of the absolute best in the world, bar none). This is where the MP5 became a world player.
The design proved so successful that soon the rest of the military began using it. Pilots, both fixed wing and rotary, carried it in their cockpits as a GREAT compact SMG (where the M16 doesn't fit - where it remains in service to this day). It was very soon adopted for LE use in about 1983 (around there), and it became EXTREMELY popular among NFA shooters. Several C2 Manufacturers began taking the SP89/54 (the simi auto version) and converting them to the MP5 and registering them on the market as either 'registered sears' or 'registered receivers'. (Terry Dyer and John Flemming are some of the most common)
A little known fact, is that there are no (to my knowledge) genuine factory, MP5's on the transferable registry. H&K would only sell to the military at first, then after 1985 they began selling them to LE. All the MP5's that are out there today were at one time an SP89 or a variant. H&K did produce SP89's specifically for conversions, so there are some that were factory stamped MP5, but were shipped simi-auto where a C2 SOT converted it to FA. H&K produced the MP5 in 26 variants with 94 & SP98 being the simi-auto versions:

Unless noted otherwise, all MP5 variants are chambered for the 9 × 19 mm Parabellum cartridge. Generally, "A2" and "A4" denote fixed stock, "A3" and "A5" denote retractable stock, and "A1" denotes no stock, with a buttcap (or receiver cap) in place.

MP5A1 — MP5 with buttcap/receiver cap; Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5A2 — Fixed stock, Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5A3 — Retractable stock, Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5A4 — Fixed buttstock, 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5A5 — Retractable buttstock, 3-round burst trigger group; noted rifle-like accuracy at 100 meters.
MP5SFA2 — SF denotes single fire, with full auto removed; fixed stock.
MP5SFA3 — MP5SF with retractable stock.
MP5-N — Model developed specifically for the U.S. Navy. Navy trigger group, 3-lug/threaded barrel for attaching a suppressor, and retractable stock.
MP5-F — Model developed specifically for the French military. Rubber-padded retractable stock, ambidextrous sling loops/bolts and internal modifications to handle high-pressure ammunition.
MP5-J — Model developed for Japan. Thicker butt pad and alternate muzzle flash guard.
MP5K — The very short version of the MP5; "SEF" trigger group.
MP5KA1 — MP5K with smooth upper surface and small iron sights; "SEF" trigger group.
MP5KA4 — MP5K with 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5KA5 — MP5KA1 with 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5K-N — MP5K with Navy trigger group and 3-lug/threaded barrel for mounting of suppressors or other muzzle attachments.
MP5K-PDW — Personal Defense Weapon; MP5K-N with added folding stock and 3-lug/threaded barrel for mounting of suppressors; Navy or 3-round burst trigger group. It was first introduced in 1991.

Older model MP5A3 with retractable stockMP5SD1 — Integrated suppressor (Schalldämpfer), A1-type buttcap with sling loop; Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5SD2 — Integrated suppressor (Schalldämpfer), fixed stock; Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5SD3 — Integrated suppressor (Schalldämpfer), retractable stock; Navy/"SEF" trigger group.
MP5SD4 — MP5SD1 with 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5SD5 — MP5SD2 with 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5SD6 — MP5SD3 with 3-round burst trigger group.
MP5SD-N — MP5SD with Navy trigger group and KAC stainless steel suppressor; retractable stock.
MP5/10 — Chambered in 10 mm Auto, available in various stock/trigger group configurations. It was made from 1992 to 2000.
MP5/40 — Chambered in .40 S&W, available in various stock/trigger group configurations. It was made from 1992 to 2000.
HK94 — American import model of the MP5 with 16-inch barrel and special safe/semi-automatic trigger group, designed for civilian use. It was made from 1983 to 1989, in three different configurations.
SP89 — Sport Pistole M1989. Semi-automatic–only version of the MP5K designed for civilian use. It had a modified foregrip redesigned into a traditional handguard that did not allow the fitting of the MP5K's foregrip to make it compliant with the Semi-Auto Weapons Ban of 1989. It was made from 1989 to 1994.
HK 54 — This was the original model that was produced in the mid sixties. It later became known as the MP5A1, a very slightly modified version.

The MP5 first sold for $900.00 and today cost about $2,000.00 (post sample). The units that are on the ‘Transferable Registry’ are ranging in price from between $10,000USD to over $25,000.00USD (depending on condition, rarity, if it’s a SEAR gun or registered receiver, if it’s a 3-pin swing down or a clipped and pinned lower, its serial number and age).

H&K has replaced the MP5 with the MP7 and the UMP. The UMP is similar, but uses a direct blowback action where the MP5 uses a rolling, locking, delayed blowback action. The UMP is also a very light weapon (compared to the MP5’s 6lbs empty) and has a much higher rate of climb and a lot crisper recoil (i.e. intense). Both SMG’s have similar cyclic rates of between 800 and 900rpm.

The MP5-SD is the suppressed standard that ALL other silencers are measured to. It was at its time (and if you’ve ever heard RTDS, still is) the quietest smg on the market (even more so than the Sterling…. Sorry guys, but the Sterling’s action is a LOT louder than the MP5’s I shot both side by side…).

The MP5 is still in use by many LEO departments and military units. Although it is being fased out from active duty and replaced with higher caliber SMG's (the 10.4" M4 & the UMP 45) - due to the ineffectiveness of the 9mm round, but many pilots still carry the MP5 as primary weapon when they have to eject or crash behind enemy lines, and quite a few police officers carry the MP5 (reconverted to simi-auto...usually) in their cruisers, while Bomb Squads/SWAT/and ERT Units use it on their missions/call outs. The MP5 is still actively used by SEAL and Special Forces Teams.

All in all the MP5 was, is, and always will be, the absolute best 9mm SMG ever produced. It's the M1911-A1 of the SMG world. You simply cannot improve perfection. Everything else is like re-inventing the wheel. (IMHO).
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Old July 16, 2007, 02:21 PM   #36
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Amen!
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Old July 16, 2007, 09:02 PM   #37
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"I think Americans arn't ready to see the police walking the beat with m16s in hand or even a bit smaller mp5's"

I hope they are in DC because M4s are what you see all over Capitol Hill. I don't remember seeing any MP5s. I realize it's not quite the same as walking through a neighborhood, but the carbines are fairly common.
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Old July 17, 2007, 12:17 AM   #38
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I will take this piece over an MP5 and I have shot both.
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Old July 18, 2007, 02:01 AM   #39
douglasschuckert
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Cops and Guns

There is a very good reason that LEO's (Law Enforcement Officers) dont carry MP5's. The MP5 is considered by the masses as being a "military rifle" and they immediately identify this as beeing a 'machine gun'. This ultimately draws unneccessary attention to the individual officer and on top of that full auto or even burst is completely unneccessary, even in the light of a shoot-out with your common robber/gang member.

The anti-gun Nazi's would have a field day if a beat cop stitched a robber full of holes using an "assualt weapon". Besides, if Special Operations dont use the full auto capability (unless they're bugging out or laying cover fire) then why should the adverage LEO?

Most LEO's carry highly accurate and reliable handguns that for the most part are all they need. In the typical cruiser you will have a rifle (generally an AR-15) and a shotgun. These two items hardly ever see any action.

The military M16's are old and abused. This is why they have reliability issues. A lot of them are 10+ years old, and poorly cared for. The current productions are exceptionally reliable and do not require extreame cleaning as people are taught that they do. I carried a 10" M4 in the sand box when I was military and I never experienced a single jam or stove pipe. Even on the fairly rare occaisions that we actually used the full auto capability. Yes we did maintain the weapon and clean it, but we were by no means anal with it. Not like the line troops were with their full sized M16's and M4's. The 'Black Rifle' is a very good platform albiet the caliber.

The .223 caliber is beginning to become obsolete... especially in the battle fields. Its exceptionally effective up close and personal, but at a reasonable distance, it lacks. The 6.8 SPC is getting a LOT more play now-adays when the SOCOM troops are not using the AKs. (this is not considering the adverage infantry-man, they use what they're issued... M16/M4's)..
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Old July 18, 2007, 02:22 AM   #40
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when was the last time you were in the military njtrigger ? because i know of no m16 that operates as poorly as the 1 u proclaimed does iv shot the mp5 and love but it doesn't compare to an m16 of todays manufacture and as far as the brits go most parts of the country the average cop that patrols the streets still don't have guns
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Old July 18, 2007, 08:55 PM   #41
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Lane...

I was just in London. The adverage Scotland Yard Officer (the beat cop), at least the ones that have completed the required training, do carry now. They began training the officers accordingly due to the recent terrorist attacks and attempts. They're still a lot of 'Constibles' there that do not carry due to the required training, but as they complete it, they are issued Glocks and they are packing. They are even sporting BPV's now too.... At least from what I've seen.....

DS

(I know, I cant spell... sue me )
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Old July 18, 2007, 09:03 PM   #42
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M16

BTW.. It has very much been my experience, that the Black Rife actually performs a little better when its slightly fouled. They do NOT need the lube that people are taught they do. I never lubed mine in the Sand Box (that fine sand LOVED the lubricant.. stuck to it like a 40 year old virgin nerd to a super model after a mercy-%*$&). I've used Colt, Bushmaster, and DPMS and I've never, not once, had any malfunction from ANY of them, and they were all shot completely dry. So was my Kimber TLE/RL2. Not 1 problem. With the exception of the .556/.223 caliber, I would not hesitate to carry that platform into any mess imaginable.
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Last edited by Johnny Guest; August 16, 2007 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Inappropriate language
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Old July 27, 2007, 08:18 PM   #43
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As someone from the UK let me clarify that UK police* are not routinely issued with firearms. Only around 10% of British police are trained and issued firearms. Whilst this figure will be higher for the Met, most officers go about their duties 'unarmed'. In offensive terms British police rely on Batons, ASPs and side handle types, and CS spray**.

For those police that are armed the MP5 is still the predominate choice in 'long arms' but more 5.56mm weapons, mostly the HK G36K and G36C are being deployed.

* The Police Service of Northern Ireland, formerly the Royal Ulster Constabulary, and the UK Atomic Energy Agency Police are however armed. Though all officers of the Ministry of Defence Police are trained in the use of firearms they do not routinely carry them.

** Technically under UK law CS spray is a Section 5 firearm subject to the same restrictions as a machine gun, or pretty much any gun for that matter.
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Old September 26, 2008, 08:08 PM   #44
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Unofficial "SMG"

I can shoot 5" @ 25 yard groups out of a properly "tuned" G-30, and somewhat better in my G-21, both at 3-round burst setting. I use the 27-round magazines which does help stability a lot. The MAKO 440 stock brings the circle down to 3" or less. The G-30 is in an ankle holster, with extra magazines at the belt. The G-21 is on strong side with magazines opposite. Nothing is quite as easy to conceal as these two, IMHO.
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Old September 27, 2008, 08:20 PM   #45
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What do GLocks have to do with necroposting in a MP5 thread?
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Old September 27, 2008, 08:22 PM   #46
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Quote:
Im not sure why more officers are not issued the MP5. In fact, this weapon should be issued to all officers to carry around as their standard firearm.

the local PD got them, took them to the local indoor range, and managed to shoot the hell out of the ceiling....

i dont have faith in the firearms competency of any of the local PD, and i cant imagine what would have happened if they were allowed to keep the mp5's after that horrific day.
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Old September 27, 2008, 08:34 PM   #47
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Quote:
What do GLocks have to do with necroposting in a MP5 thread?
Particularly one that talks about non-FA Glocks using mags that don't exist?....


I think semi-auto MP-5's and other carbines in that size range would be a good idea for patrol vehicles in urban areas, but full-auto should remain only with those LEO's with extra training and certification....
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Old September 27, 2008, 10:31 PM   #48
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Site-Ninja warning

My post was to DOUBLE NAUGHT SPY, 7/07/07. Sorry to have roused you two site ninjas. Many go-mens, Y'all. As for what you "experts" know about availability of non-Glock accessories: you should get out more. Try Hong Kong. Take your certifications. If anyone has ever ordered any Glock item, it is available there: want 30-, or 40-, or 50-round drums for ANY Glock? A 6", or 8", or 10" barrel? How's about a brief-case firing Glock? Rail-mounted lights with built-in spikes or blades. Don't get me started. Among Gentlemen, manners gets you a lot further than smart8$$ comments. 21C
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Old September 28, 2008, 06:07 AM   #49
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What is it about the HK54 that brings out...

...various myths, misconceptions, and the ice-cream store commandos on the intarw3bz?

To clear up some misconceptions:
Quote:
It was very soon adopted for LE use in about 1983 (around there), and it became EXTREMELY popular among NFA shooters. Several C2 Manufacturers began taking the SP89/54 (the simi auto version)
Most sear guns are on HK-94s, which is the 9mm semiauto carbine variant. The SP89 was the pistol version that appeared just in time to get banned by the Bush Import Ban of '89. The popularity of making MP-5 clones is what keeps the prices of the HK-94 and SP89 so inflated vis a vis their HK-91/93 brethren (even though the '93 is the scarcest of the bunch, a primo '94 will bring a lot more money because of the Rainbow Six factor... ) I felt like a fiscal genius for selling my SP89 for not too much over a grand, and I just saw one go for as close to five long as makes no nevermind... Live and learn.

To counter some of the latter:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 21CFA
Sorry to have roused you two site ninjas.
The only Glock accessories coming out of Hong Kong are airsoft toys from The Wargamer's Club. Having worked at an SOT manufacturer and having some experience with our post-sample Glock FA conversions (installed on a 17 and a 20, FWIW) and how they work, I'd be interested in seeing your "3-round burst" Glock 30, because I'm just not visualizing the mechanism.

I see that you are in Marion. There will be a bunch of us getting together at the Broad Ripple Brew Pub in Indy today at 3PM. Bring your toys, I'd like to see them; you may get to meet Frank James, the guy who wrote the book on the MP-5 story.
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Old September 28, 2008, 10:07 AM   #50
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