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Old July 4, 2007, 10:49 AM   #1
njtrigger
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The ultimate weapon....The MP5

Im not sure why more officers are not issued the MP5. In fact, this weapon should be issued to all officers to carry around as their standard firearm.

I have used many types of weapons and my opinion of each is the following. M16-like weapons are bulky and isnt comfortable to carry around for any period of time. When I was in the military, the M16 felt like a 3rd wheel. You had to be very careful with it in ways of cleaning or it would have reliability issues. I remember firing it at the range and having it jam up on me. I was thinking if this how it reacted at a firing range then I would hate to be using it if I was under real fire.

Pistols are alright, but not generally all that accurate and not so effective.

The only weapon that I thought was absolutely perfect was the MP5. The one I have used was ancient, 10+ year old relic, but it seemed so accurate, reliable and easy to fire. On full automatic, it was so easy to fire short bursts of fire in an accurate fashion. It was also very light and compact, not so hard to carry around for extended periods of time. Although it was 9mm, a 3-5 round burst of 9mm will stop someone. I have no doubt about that. In fact, I think the 9mm version is probably better then the 40 cal version because the 9mm is a lot easier to fire on auto then the 40.

On television, I see the British have adopted the MP5 as their standard police weapon and why not? This is the best sidearm that I can think of to carry.

I have no idea why the police in the United States have not adopted this weapon as their standard patrol firearm.

I guess no one wants to see a soldier-like figure in their backyard and prefer the regular cop sporting his Glock. However, I would feel much better having the uniformed officers having superior effective firepower rather then these smallish not so accurate pistols that cant stop with just one shot.

The British and Europeans have learned
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Old July 4, 2007, 11:15 AM   #2
RsqVet
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Well actually the MP5 has been phased out by HK in favor of the UMP, however you make an excellent point about weapons and sensabilities.

BTW the brits and others still carry pistols as well, the MP5 is simply a popular choice in much of europe as one goes up the spectrum in weaponry.

Honeslty what I think one has to face is that there is not a whole lot of reason in much of what we do. For years many in high profile LE positionins in europe had sub guns while the only long arm in most of american LE was a pump shotgun. Furthermore in Europe despite being largley weapon phobic there seemed to be little worry about officers in high profile positions such as airports having slung subguns, while here most anything other than a pistol is kept hidden away in a cruiser or bag, besides in american LE the 1911 is offten knocked because seeing the hammer back in a holster scares the sheep in the streets. Many in the USA viewed a subgun as reckless or uncontrollable while many Europeans though shotguns a sporting firearm and either reckless or inhumane for LE use.

Thankfully in the US that is changing with more and more departments issuing carbines of one sort or another for use by regular patrol officers or allowing carry of personally owned, department approved carbines. I belive there have already been a few reports that have shown what a life saver this can be.

The current trend is more towards the 5.56 AR / M16 family of weapons... for better or worse they are highly functional as well, relitivly cheap and reliable and easy for most people to handle.

As for regular everyday carry, vs. available in the cruiser you will likely not see folks move away from a semi-auto pistol as many routine manuvers of LE and rapid response defense at arms length is best acomplished with a pistol. Furthermore whenever one carrys a long arm or sub gun and a pistol one has doubled the number of weapons one must retain from an attacker. For higher profile patrol use, I certainly would not be alarmed to see officers with slung subguns or longarms but again I think you will find more and more resistance to this amongst the american public except in times or areas of great crisis.... remember as a nation we forget things mighty quickly.
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Old July 4, 2007, 11:44 AM   #3
Erich
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I've always felt that the MP5 was astonishingly heavy and overly large for what it was, a 9mm squirt-gun. Phenomenally expensive, too.

They work great, though.
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Old July 4, 2007, 11:52 AM   #4
Sgt127
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I agree. Its a very heavy, but utterly reliable bulky pistol. I carried one for 10 years on Tac. The suppressed version was alot of fun, and, I hold the record for killing street lights (I got five, I think that makes me an Ace) on BP's. I carry an AR now, and the whole Tac team has switched to AR's. Really, it does everything the MP-5 could do, and, alot more.
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Old July 4, 2007, 11:57 AM   #5
njtrigger
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I dont believe the M16 to be a very reliable weapon. In fact, the Army's solution to keeping the M16 reliable is for the soldier to do such things like carry the weapon above their head in a river and throw condoms over the barrel when there is a lot of dust. Extra care had to be taken when the M16 was involved in very wet or sandy conditions. A little sand in the slide and it would jam up. The slide seemed like it constantly needed some type of lubrication. When it was time to place it in the armory, it took hours to clean as if this was some type of punishment detail.

For what its worth, I have never felt the need to cover my glock with a condom nor did I ever felt the need to use lubrication or to clean it for hours on end. Its fine enough going bareback without any lube and best being fired dirty.

My advice for those who have to carry the M16 or the M4. Keep it in that pretty velvet bag, throw a condom over the barrel, buy oil in bulk and make sure its in that hard plastic abs case all the time.
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Old July 4, 2007, 01:00 PM   #6
vox rationis
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This a great article on the M4 and reliability issues vis a vis a piston gas design in the same platform (HK 416).

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/

it basically says that Army testing showed that the M4 and M16 (carbine vs full length gas system) failed every 5000 rounds (35,000 rounds fired), BUT Marine testing showed that the M4 failed 186/69000 rounds fired (that's every 370 rnds) and that the M16 failed 61/69000 (every 1131 rounds fired). In comparison the HK416 fired 10-15K rounds between stoppages.

Now you choose whom to believe, the Army or the Marine Corps. I choose to believe the Marine Corps that fired more rounds and perhaps under more stringent conditions, as the Army testing was described as being "under laboratory conditions".

In any case, this strongly suggests that the M4 Carbine would be more than reliable enough for Law Enforcement/Civilian requirements. Plus, the M4 would give officers the ability to effectively engage targets out to 200meters if they had to, and more importantly they could defeat body armor with the 5.56x45mm round, this in a package of a similar size and weight as most submachine guns. The North Hollywood bank robbery proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that officers of the law need a carbine shooting high velocity rifle ammo to defeat body armor wearing subjects, not a sub gun shooting a puny pistol cartridge.

Lastly, if you are still concerned about reliability, either give officers a full size rifle, or buy a piston gas system carbine. If the HK 416 is too pricey, well there are less expensive options, with seemingly equal quality, like LWRC and Patriot Ordnance. Check out this video of LWRC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N03LVJgUWdU

Here is the HK 416
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhUah...elated&search=
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Old July 4, 2007, 01:52 PM   #7
shaggy
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Quote:
In fact, this weapon should be issued to all officers to carry around as their standard firearm.

No offense, but thats about the dumbest idea I've heard since someone suggested privitization of the police in L&P. First off, there is virtually no need for the average cop to carry a SMG. None...unless their patrol area is in Baghdad. Law enforcement is not a military operation and shouldn't be viewed as such - they are completely different missions with completely different objectives and rules. Militarization of civilian law enforcement is not a good thing and FWIW the MP5 is NOT a standard issue weapon for the average British LEO. Second, most cops are not gun enthusiasts and only carry a weapon because they have to. Many of them can just barely hit the broad side of a barn with their sidearm (and thats from inside the barn). Hand them a weapon with full auto capability and a lot of innocent civilians are going to get hurt. We're already seeing this with the overuse of SWAT and SRT for relatively minor arrests because the dept has to justify the expense of the team. Look at the Bell shooting in Queens earlier this year - cops unleashed on Bell's car but sent numerous stray rounds sailing through an overhead subway stop endangering the lives of the civilians up there waiting for the train. Can you "civil liability"? I knew you could.

Don't get me wrong, I like the MP5, I owned an MP5 (MP5k PDW) - its a good weapon. But as a standard issue sidearm for every Barney Fife and Clancy Wiggum its a horrible idea. Perhaps as a 'trunk gun' only to be brought out in emergencies, but not for regular carry. The US is not Baghdad or a combat zone. That said I still prefer the M16 over the MP5 or any 9mm bullethose. My M16's have never let me down (due to issues with the weapon and not mags or ammo)and I usually don't clean mine until they're in the 1000rd territory.
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Old July 4, 2007, 02:06 PM   #8
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I have to agree with shaggy. In fact, police have no business having ANY weapons that the average peace-loving Joe has trouble getting.

As for the MP5, it's great for what it is: a short-range weapon for use primarily against unarmored opponents (much like a shotgun). I greatly prefer a rifle myself.

By the way, I read a post by a British cop on another board who said that nearly all MP5's, G36's, etc., that you see the British police carrying have semi-auto-only trigger groups. I understand that many police in the US use semi-only trigger groups on their MP5's as well, at least on the ones in patrol cars. Even many FBI MP5's are semi-only, according to one article I read. I actually think it's a good idea, as police have no business "spraying and praying" and putting innocent lives at risk with stray bullets. You can shoot very fast on semi-auto anyway, and a lot more precisely -- although I can see how the 9mm's limited stopping power might make short bursts desirable for rapidly stopping an assailant. As far as burst-fire weapons go, the MP5 is definitely among the most controllable. And on semi-auto it's a lot more precise than a pistol, which is probably its main advantage for police work.
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Old July 4, 2007, 03:14 PM   #9
vox rationis
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I didn't mean to imply that officers need full auto versions, but semi-auto versions of the M4, or an AR-15, would be useful weapons for a patrol officer to have access too, maybe not all patrol officers, but they should be on hand, as "emergency trunk guns", to at least some regular patrol officers, especially in a rural area. LAPD bought a bunch of AR-15s for patrol officers to have as emergency trunk guns after that shoot out in North Hollywood, during which police actually had to borrow AR-15s from local gun stores to engage the two bank robbers that were clad head to foot with body armor. The 9mm and 00 buck shot at the robbers was totally ineffectual.
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Old July 4, 2007, 03:26 PM   #10
Redneckrepairs
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i agree with the idea of a patrol rifle as part of any officers kit , i just dont agree with your idea of a patrol rifle in any aspect , in fact the hk would be far down my list .
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Old July 4, 2007, 03:31 PM   #11
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H&k Mp7!
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Old July 4, 2007, 04:25 PM   #12
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The problem with the MP5 is the fact that it will not defeat body armor (which more and more bad guys are wearing). It also doesn't give you enough range if you have to engage a bad guy past 50yds.

They also malfunction (just like any other weapon).



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Old July 4, 2007, 07:07 PM   #13
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I may as well just change my sig line to "I agree with SteelCore". Then I won't have to type anything.

About the only thing the MP5 and other pistol cal subguns do very well, is for SWAT or military applications, where a select-fire suppressed weapon is needed so as not to tip off the ultimate target or other enemy pockets nearby. 147 subsonic 9mms can be quiet if suppressed. For everyday cop, handgun. For average soldier or SWAT officer, rifle-cal carbine is superior and just as light & reliable. The AR M4 type carbine can be made to be very lightweight, and it has a lot more oomph. Not quite as controllable in full-auto, that's true, but the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, IMO. Not saying that your opinion is not valid; it is; obviously you base it on personal experience..
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Old July 4, 2007, 07:13 PM   #14
SteelCore
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+1 FirstFreedom! Great minds think alike.
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Old July 5, 2007, 09:34 AM   #15
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Acually HK is pushing the Mp7A1 these days..Norway as we speak are replacing all of their MP5's(and they used them alot) with the MP7A1
and it really does have to do with the lighter weight gun and ammunition,
its greater ability to ignore personal body armor with standard ball ammo , and shoot flatter, which reduces aiming error and ups hit probability when used by semi novice personel (and yes, I have been through HK's MP5 cert class and have nothing against one at all)

I also agree with First Freedom about the average patrol officer is better served with a intermediate powered carbine, as shooting a motor vehicle and through glass are a real possibility, and as he is comming to help others...he is all the Cavalry your going to get, so he needs an reasonably offensive weapon.
I can see the PDW and SMG still have their uses in LE work...1 example motorcycle officers would be well served by the extra capability over their sidearm, yet could be stowed in the standard saddle packs.
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Old July 5, 2007, 11:49 AM   #16
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If a cop is gonna have a long arm in their car, it should be a rifle. The MP5 is not going to do anything their sidearm won't.
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Old July 6, 2007, 11:23 AM   #17
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With all the short rifles / carbines / whatever you call them, I don't see the need for big SMGs like the MP-5. If you want a step up from you handgun, it should be a shotgun or rifle, not something in a handgun caliber.

Off-topic:

I agree with RsqVet, I always thought it was funny that for Europeans it is normal to have fully automatic SMGs but shotguns were frowned upon and in the US it is (was) the other way around.
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Old July 6, 2007, 12:31 PM   #18
mdao
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Quote:
If a cop is gonna have a long arm in their car, it should be a rifle. The MP5 is not going to do anything their sidearm won't.
'Cept for, you know, the ability to hit things better and at longer ranges... Compared to pistol caliber carbines and SMGs, pistols are a bitch to hit things with.

While a folding stock Krink would be more effective than any pistol round SMG, it doesn't mean that the MP5 and other SMGs are useless.
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Old July 6, 2007, 12:45 PM   #19
MisterPX
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If you're gonna be shooting at longer range, you'd want a rifle anyhow
I understand what you mean, accuracywise, but what can the MP5 do that the M16 can't in LE applications?
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Old July 6, 2007, 02:52 PM   #20
biglabsrule
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man oh man

"the police man is your friend"

"but momy why is he carrying that massive assualt weapon"

"oh he has complete control of that, it's just fully auto with hich cap. mags"



I think Americans arn't ready to see the police walking the beat with m16s in hand or even a bit smaller mp5's

I sure as hell am not, sounds like commy to me.... .02
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Old July 6, 2007, 10:58 PM   #21
20nickels
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What can the MP5 do that the M16 can't in LE applications?

Ammo interchangability with your pistol. Compact configurations (small plus). Less overpenetration. Wound diameter. Opinions vary, but I would prefer the MP5 indoors.
Last I heard Pentagon security uses sub-guns with pistols in matching caliber, but the cavalry is close by. That being said I prefer a 12ga. over both especially in a LE situmawation.
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Old July 7, 2007, 11:43 AM   #22
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Most LEO's (even the ones involved in the Hollywood Robbery) would be better served by a lever-action or pump-action carbine in .30-30 or .308 (esp. w/ Leverloution bullets) and decent marksmanship training than any full-auto subgun or "battle rifle"....

Shot placement is the end-all....
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Old July 8, 2007, 01:18 AM   #23
MisterPX
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Ammo interchangability with your pistol. Compact configurations (small plus). Less overpenetration. Wound diameter. Opinions vary, but I would prefer the MP5 indoors.
Last I heard Pentagon security uses sub-guns with pistols in matching caliber, but the cavalry is close by. That being said I prefer a 12ga. over both especially in a LE situmawation.
MP5 is 9mm, most LE use 40 s&W in sidearms.
11.5 AR just as compact as MP5
9mm has more "overpenetration" than 5.56
Ever see what a M193, or Nosler 75gr does compared to a 9mm?
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Old July 8, 2007, 02:24 AM   #24
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Let me preface this by saying that I am not a die hard fan of the AR 15 / M 16... in fact if I had my druthers I'd take a Sig551 or HK 416 however I feel compelled to defend the 16 against what has been said here.

Frankly I agree there are superior systems out there, however the 16 is not non-functional, infact far from it.

Furthermore the allegation that using field expediant muzzle covers to keep dirt out of your weapon (i.e. condoms) or carrying your weapon over your head when fording deep water represents a weak weapon is simply not true, these thigns have bene done for years prior to the 16 and are well advised for anyone with any weapons system in the field.
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Old July 8, 2007, 03:54 AM   #25
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The 30-30 and 308 have too much penetration for "trailer park" use. They are also a bad idea in the rare active shooter scenario where the officer might have to take a shot inside a mall or school. The 223 with proper bullets is about ideal for most general LE use. 223 is cheaper than most other calibers and the low recoil allows an officer to train often and actually enjoy it. Those envisioning officers dumping multiple magazines into the neighborhood need to get out and support the training budget for their local LE and quit watching Hollywood shoot-em ups.
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