The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 4, 2007, 10:15 PM   #1
banditt007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2006
Posts: 692
.308 vs 30-06 any truth to the accuracy argument?

so i know the differences for the most part.

short action the the .308, long on the 30-06

heavier bullets in the 30-06

couple hundred FPS faster in the 06'

and how in target shooting competition 06's arent really in it and mostly .308's b/c of the better acuracy. now thats the question...accuracy only on a more practical scale.

for a savage arms hunting rifle, say 300 yards and under is there really any 'inherient' better accuracy seen favoring the .308?

also is the kick all things being equal, any less w/ the .308 due to the couple hundred FPS slower on average it shoots?
banditt007 is offline  
Old May 4, 2007, 10:30 PM   #2
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,461
My pet '06 regularly and reliably gives me three-shot groups of around 3/4". Since I have one kill at 350 yards and one at around 450, I figure that's good enough. The other couple of dozen or so were mostly one-shots inside around 200 yards.

Shooting at a deer or coyote, I've never heard the muzzle blast nor felt any recoil. All I knew was crosshairs and a particular point on the deer.

Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old May 4, 2007, 10:46 PM   #3
Gewehr98
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2000
Location: Token Creek, WI
Posts: 4,068
Your differences in accuracy between the two chamberings...

Will be determined solely by the shooter and the quality of the rifle's construction, regardless of whether the rifle's chambered in .308 Winchester or .30-06 Springfield.

Target shooting has a tradition of starting as a military-sponsored competition, and the demise of the .30-06 for that role was hastened by the phase-in of the 7.62mm NATO (similar to the .308 Winchester) as standard issue. The .30-06 Springfield hasn't been "the" target round for many years, save for DCM/CMP M1 Garand competitions, since the 7.62mm NATO became general issue, phasing out the former in supply channels. Uncle Sam hasn't even stocked .30-06 for target use in Gawd knows how long, save for what CMP scrapes up or contracts out. Hence the 7.62mm NATO/.308 Winchester, which being somewhat long in the tooth itself is now being overshadowed by the 5.56mm NATO/.223 Remington in long-range competitions, both military and civilian.
__________________
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

Neural Misfires
Gewehr98 is offline  
Old May 4, 2007, 10:57 PM   #4
boltgun71
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 541
I dont believe the .308 Win is any more "inherently' accurate than the 30-06, but the .308 has a few more advantages going for it.
The .308 has lower recoil than the 30-06 due to a smaller case capacity with less powder. The lower recoil lends to more accurate shooting because less likely of a flinch developing and you can fire more rounds in a session with out taking the same recoil punishment as the larger 30-06. The recoil plays a large role when doing competition shooting and firing several rounds a day possibly over several days. The M1 Garand in '06 use to be popular, then was replaced by the M1A in .308, now that has been replaced by the lower recoiling AR-15 in .223. When hunting you don't(or shouldn't be) thinking about the recoil so its not aproblem in a hunting rifle IMO. If you spend alot of time plinking at the range with your hunting rifle you may be better served with a .308 since your range sessions will be more enjoyable.
With more target rifles and "tactical" rifles in use today in .308 more companies develop more match factory loads for the .308 than the 30-06. With more different match loads available to choose from it is easier to find a load that your rifle shoots well accurately over the 30-06. Yes there is several 30-06 match loads, but not near as many as a .308 ands with all the different bullet weights.
For a hunting rifle I dont think you will see a practical difference in accuracy between the two. Both are great cartridges. I have used both hunting and in competition.
boltgun71 is offline  
Old May 4, 2007, 11:32 PM   #5
applesanity
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2007
Location: Commonwealth of Virginia
Posts: 1,134
I've always been under the impression that while other cartridges shoot straighter and faster, and that the .308 has a trajectory like a rainbow, it does have one very crucial aspect: consistency.

You will have to make quite a few more clicks on your scope, but at least you know where it's going.
__________________
"SED QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES?"
alizarian web design
"Up men and to your posts! Don't forget today that you are from Old Virginia!"
applesanity is offline  
Old May 4, 2007, 11:33 PM   #6
RsqVet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Posts: 2,338
Either will / can be equally accurate.

Art mentioned many reasons for the 308's popularity. I'd agree with all of his observations.

In addition I'd add that if I had to guess where the idea that a 30-06 is inherently less accurate than a 308, if probibly comes from comparing stories of old 30-06 guns to newer 308 guns.... as much as we all miss some of the touches and features of older guns, a very good rifle has never been more affordable or easier to find from any number of makers... just a hunch.
RsqVet is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 12:17 AM   #7
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,201
"...The .308 has lower recoil than the 30-06 due to a smaller case capacity with less powder...the .308 has a trajectory like a rainbow..." Um, no. Ballistically, they're identical. The felt recoil is the same, so is the trajectory out of like rifles.
The whole point of developing the .308/7.62 was to take advantage of the then new powders to get the ballistics of the .30-06 in a shorter case.
"...match factory loads..." Serious match shooters don't use factory ammo. They reload to tailor their ammo to their rifles. That's the only way to wring the absolute best accuracy out of any given rifle.
"...the couple hundred FPS slower on average..." It's actually only about 100 fps or less with like bullet weights. IE: The starting load for a 168 grain bullet, using IMR4064, out of a .308, has a MV of 2415 fps. The same bullet and powder out of a .30-06 gives 2551fps. 136fps difference. It's 11fps with 180 grain bullets.
The .308 is inherently more accurate than the .30-06. It's got to do with the shorter, 'fatter' case and the bullet diameter. There's a formula some place that explains it. Don't ask me where. However, after all that, you'd have to be a very good target shooter to notice the difference. Except, maybe, at very long range.
A deer, bear, moose or elk won't know or care what kills it. When considering a hunting rifle chambering, the only thing to consider is do you want the longer rifle or not.
You can load heavier bullets in the '06, but you rarely need anything more than a 165 grain bullet in either for hunting anything in North America. Both shoot 165 grain bullets extremely well. Both shoot 168 grain match bullet extremely well too out to about 600 yards. 175 grain Matchkings for distances past 600.
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 01:01 AM   #8
Gewehr98
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2000
Location: Token Creek, WI
Posts: 4,068
Recoil is also a function of powder expended.

Lest we forget, it ain't just the bullet going downrange. The .308 will actually have less recoil than the .30-06, even if the bullet weight's the same, due to the lighter powder charge. The powder's mass factors into the equation, no getting around that.

Match shooter have indeed used factory loads, at least the military ones at Camp Perry, if directed to use issued ammo for their course of fire. We called it the Great Equalizer. See J.C. Garand matches, or the Excellence In Competition M16 matches I got to enjoy. Allowances are made for handloads in some competitions, but they must conform to specifications duplicating as-issued ammo.

Starting loads may indeed show a 136fps difference. Everybody shoots starting loads, too. One can also cherry-pick load data from the various loadbooks to make their point. Myself, I just grabbed my Speer #13 manual off the bookshelf, and flipped it open to the 180gr loads for .308 Winchester and .30-06 Springfield. Well, whadd'ya know? STARTING loads for one of my favorite powders, IMR4064, give 2294fps in the .308 Winchester, 2583fps in the .30-06 Springfield. My goodness, that's a difference of 289fps!

My long-standing offer debunking "inherent accuracy" still stands, and I'd love to see the formula that dictates accuracy will be "X% greater" in a shortfat case. Benchresters love the PPC cases this week for 200 yard BR matches. It doesn't mean they will next week, just like the transition from the .222 Remington to the PPC family, thing's will change when somebody invents an even better mousetrap. (I note that the 6.5-284 is doing that to some degree already)
__________________
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

Neural Misfires
Gewehr98 is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 08:50 AM   #9
629 shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2002
Location: IN , USA
Posts: 967
I have heard of bench rifles being chambered in .308 but never a .30-06. I see a lot of heavy barrel "precision" factory rifles in .308 but never .30-06. I can walk in any gun store and find a rifle with a heavy free floated barrel in .308 from nearly any manufacturer , but not .30-06.

I did not write the following , but the author compares the .30-06 and .308 and their history as military match rifles:

" All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.

In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.

At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.

Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.

At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.

Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.

Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent.

There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth."
__________________
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."
629 shooter is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 09:56 AM   #10
Fremmer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,482
Here's my practical answer:

There is little, if any, difference in accuracy between the two calibers. If you can't hit it with the '06, you almost certainly won't hit it with the .308. Both calibers are usually more accurate than the person shooting the rifle. There is almost no difference in trajectory between the two calibers. If the drop from the .308 causes you to miss, the same thing will happen with the '06. The .308 has a bit less recoil than the '06, but not much. If you flinch with the '06, you'll probably flinch with the .308, too.

Both are great calibers. Take your pick, you can't go wrong with either.
Fremmer is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 11:06 AM   #11
cheygriz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2002
Location: high up in the rockies
Posts: 2,232
There is no practical difference! Period!
__________________
If you think a mighty military force is expensive, wait 'til you see what a weak one costs.
cheygriz is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 11:41 AM   #12
Trapper L
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2006
Location: South Texas
Posts: 804
The one thing nobody has mentioned and is critical in benchrest is the length of the action versus the stiffness of the action. A standard rifle action like a Rem 700 with a barrel screwed on it for a 308 will be far less apt to flex than a longer action with a 3006 barrel screwed on. This is one of the major reasons everybody has gone to the 308, 6PPC, 6.5/284 is for the shorter actions. This is also why a lot of the guys are shooting sleeved actions.
Interesting about the felt recoil between the two. Common physics says that when you have an action, you have a reaction. It seems that if I were shooting a 168 gr bullet thru a 26" barrel and the max pressure curves were identical, the felt recoil would be the same. The pressure curves are easily identical nowadays with the variety of powders used. I don't see where the case capacity would enter into the equation in regards to recoil.
I've also stated here before that with lighter bullets, the 308 can and sometimes will push a bullet faster than a 3006. For those with a Speer manual #13, look on page 281. Speer acknowledges that the 308 can exceed the speed of the 3006 with bullets up to 150 grs. This is consistant with my chronograph readings using the 125gr TNT bullets. The 308 will be faster than I can get out of any of the 06s I load for.
Interesting thread. I look forward to the chat about this.
Trapper L is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 12:37 PM   #13
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,461
A little perspective about "two or three times better": That's when looking at scores on a target, where a fraction of an inch can mean dropped points off the score. A 9 instead of a 10, or a plain 10 vs. an X.

Gale McMillan's world record holding benchrest rifle won't kill any more deer than my old '06. For hunting requirements, my rifle is just as accurate as his. Either will bust Bambi's neck or blow up the heart/lungs--and you can't get deader than just plain dead.

Yes, the shorter action is stiffer, for the .308. That's a "smidgen". Then, accept that the .308's case proportions make for better combustion efficiency. Another "smidgen". Then add in the R&D on powders and primers and such after the '06's popularity began to wane and you have another "smidgen". And few folks are doing all the extra machining, nowadays, for '06s.

And all that's really great.

But I'll handload 180-grain bullets in my present 26" '06 and have a 300 ft/sec advantage over a .308. I got a three-shot group a week back that was about 3/8 MOA. (I sez, "Hmmm. Probably oughta quit." And did. ) And even all that's a sort of "So what?" when it comes to Bambi...

If I have any advice, it would be that a hunter who doesn't handload probably oughta go with a .308. More ammo for the money. For a handloader, the '06 is better if the heavier bullets are important.

, Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 12:38 PM   #14
essexcounty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2005
Posts: 646
For a hunting rifle........

No noticeable diffrence. You'd be happy with either. Essex
essexcounty is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 12:39 PM   #15
Gewehr98
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2000
Location: Token Creek, WI
Posts: 4,068
I *believe* all that boldface stuff was Chuck Hawks...

It pops up from time to time, but really doesn't address a fundamental flaw in the logic. The .30-06 had a long time to get sloppy from 1903 to 1957, both in ammo and chamberings. Highpower shooting migrated quite naturally to the .308, because the military had done the footwork, .30-06 fell by the wayside in the supply chain, and we as Americans always like to work with what our armed services issue. That's the DCM, and NRA High Power uses Service Rifle rules, hence the move from the Trapdoor to the Krag to the 1903 to the M1 Garand to the M14/M1A and now to the AR-15/M16. The .308 is also losing ground quite rapidly to the .223 in the competition world, lest we forget. Is it more accurate? No, but it is easier to shoot well. Makes for good cut-and-paste, though, glad to see that diatribe get posted again. Having seen it once more, I know several .30-06 rifles that will embarrass the .308 shooter. Handloading and gunsmithing have indeed progressed since 1960, lest we forget.

Again, my offer stands, to all with a vested interest in the concept. Show me the money, and I will deliver the goods. I'm quite serious.

I will build two identical rifles, using premium actions and barrels. (Nesika Bay, Stolle, Krieger, Hart, Obermeyer, etc.) One will be chambered in .30-06, the other in .308, using the same match-grade style of reamers, tight chamber dimensions, and so forth. Assuming equal care and precision is used in handloading and matching the ammo to each rifle, the only difference in how they shoot will be determined by the person pulling the trigger. Period.

That's more than the lazy gunwriters can do, with their "inherent accuracy" argument.
__________________
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

Neural Misfires
Gewehr98 is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 02:09 PM   #16
MacGille
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2006
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 976
I want to see a 40 rd group at 600 yard that measures 2 inches. HOG WASH also BUSHWA and BALDERDASH.
MacGille is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 03:05 PM   #17
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,248
Inherent accuracy

Perhaps, if you look at thousands of rifles, you may find one chambering being "inherently" more accurate and another, but there are so many other variables as to make any real world claim meaningless.

For a hunting rifle, no difference. For a target rifle, You are a bigger variable than the chambering. When you get into things like benchrest shooting, then things like action stiffness, etc. actually start to make a difference. Until then, it is a small matter, really.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 03:52 PM   #18
FirstFreedom
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
I'll just say that I don't know who's right, but that I would *REALLY* like for someone who can afford it to take Gew98 up on his offer, so we can settle this thing once and for all time! A new doctrine can be established: The Gew98 doctrine - No such thing as inherently accurate round.
FirstFreedom is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 05:28 PM   #19
jlmurphy
Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2006
Posts: 84
If all cartridges are inherently accurate than why do all benchrest competitors use the 6mm PPC? To say that the internal ballistics of primer ignition, powder column dimensions, case shoulder angles,and neck length don't matter is an oversimplification. What happens before the bullet gets to the muzzle is just as important as what happens afterwards. When a specific cartridge is formalized, it's dimensions are fixed, for good or bad. Soon after formal benchrest matches started both the 222 Rem and the 22 Hornet were available, why did no one use the Hornet? Even now, why doesn't anyone use the .243 Win. for benchrest? In theory it would reach the target faster, reduce wind drift and bullet drop.
jlmurphy is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 05:57 PM   #20
cheygriz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 11, 2002
Location: high up in the rockies
Posts: 2,232
Quote:
I've also stated here before that with lighter bullets, the 308 can and sometimes will push a bullet faster than a 3006. For those with a Speer manual #13, look on page 281. Speer acknowledges that the 308 can exceed the speed of the 3006 with bullets up to 150 grs. This is consistant with my chronograph readings using the 125gr TNT bullets. The 308 will be faster than I can get out of any of the 06s I load for.
Interesting thread. I look forward to the chat about this.
Trapper, interesting coments. Are you loadng ot the same chamber pressure???? Many loading manuals show maximum pressure for the 06 well below that of the .308 in deference the possibility the ammo will be used in older guns.

I know that a .308 using 148-150 ball ammo at 52k-55k CUP will perform nearly equal to a .30-06 using the same bullet at 46k- 48k CUP.

But when I load my modern .30-06s to 55k CUP, I attain approximately 200-250 FPS more velocity from equal barrel lengths. (as measured by an Oehler 33)

I have both .308, and .30-06s, and I love both calibers. The .30-06 case is easier and more versatile to load due to the longer case neck, and greater powder capacity.

But assuming optimum powder burning rates for the case capacity, (example 4895 or H335 for the .308 and 4350 or H414 for the .30-06) and equal barrel lengths, AND equal peak chamber presure, it would seem to me that the basic laws of physics dictate that the .30-06, with it's slower burning powder, and flatter pressure curve, would mean that it will give more velocity regardless of bullet weight. I've never uised bullets lighter than 148 in either though.
__________________
If you think a mighty military force is expensive, wait 'til you see what a weak one costs.
cheygriz is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 06:50 PM   #21
Gewehr98
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2000
Location: Token Creek, WI
Posts: 4,068
The 6PPC is a very specialized cartridge, for a very specialized game.

When Palmisano and Pindel developed the cartridge from the parent .220 Russian round, they did some wonderful things for the 200-300yd benchrest game. They tightened the QC of the brass, locked in dimensions for both brass and chambering, and generally eliminated the variables that come with less stringent oversight of a product. When you're getting brass from just one or two sources, like Lapua, Norma, or Sako, QC tends to be very good, and consistency excellent. Add a 30-degree sharp shoulder for consistent headspacing, and you're well on your way to having a round easy to mate to the prerequisite precision rifle. We're talking SERIOUS quality control of both the ammo and the launching system. Again, what the gunwriters fail to understand is that "inherent accuracy" cannot happen without a perfect symbiosis of cartridge and rifle, making the argument essentially moot. That's also why you won't find a 6PPC Remington 710 at WalMart. You will find exquisitely-crafted BR guns shooting BR-specific cartridges, and every effort at removing variables is attempted. A Dan-Lilja BR gun with 2" diameter barrel (Good 6PPC launcher):



As it stands today in the world of benchrest, the PPC cartridge is giving way to the longer Remington BR family of rounds, just like the .222 Remington (Triple Deuce) gave way to the PPC a while ago.

As for "flame front", and "powder column efficiency", Rocky Gibbs played with something similar years ago. He was famous for his brand of Improved .30-06 cartridges, and experimented with using a brass primer flash tube to direct the primer's flame to the front of the powder column, directly behind the seated bullet. The results were interesting, but didn't warrant the expense of modifying brass to accommodate the extra internal part.

BR isn't dominated by the 6mm PPC. The PPC family is still the major choice for short-range BR, out to 300 yards, but it uses flat-based bullets, and has neither the wind-bucking ability, nor the legs for long-range BR. The latter has seen quite a swing, favoring the 6.5-284, itself a kissing cousin of the long-legged 6.5-06. The current record for the 6.5-284 was set by Rich DeSimone, 5 rounds at 1000 yards, 1.564" group. I'm usually happy if I can print 5 rounds inside 8" at 1000 yards with my F-Class 6.5-06, so I'm of the opinion that Rich has done some amazing shooting, and it wasn't a 6mm PPC.
__________________
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

Neural Misfires
Gewehr98 is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 08:48 PM   #22
FirstFreedom
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
Well, that proves that the 6.5mm-.284 is inherently more accurate than 6.5mm-'06, since I know you easily have as much skill as Rich! Right?

Good gawd, man - I'm happy with that group at 100 yards!
FirstFreedom is offline  
Old May 5, 2007, 10:18 PM   #23
Gewehr98
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2000
Location: Token Creek, WI
Posts: 4,068
I'm nowhere near the shooter he is.

And I'd love to have his rifle.



I doubt I could do this, though:

__________________
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

Neural Misfires
Gewehr98 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13112 seconds with 7 queries