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Old April 26, 2007, 08:05 PM   #1
Kato_Guy
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got myself a little problem!!

I know I should have checked first but, I didn't so here it is:

I put together a load of barnes varmint grenades and seated them at 2.255" in my win stealth and came to realize that they are too long. It needs to be more around the 2.200" length. can I just push these bullets down or do I have to pull them all apart and start from scratch???

I am afraid that if I push some of these down it might compress the powder. Some of the lower powder charges I could see doing it but the max loads I prolly should pull them apart???

help me out please

thaks kyle
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Old April 26, 2007, 08:30 PM   #2
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What kind of crimp did you use?

And are the powder charges taken from published data for the 2.2" length or shorter?
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Old April 26, 2007, 08:38 PM   #3
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I didn't use a crimp just the bullet seater.

I used the data from the lyman manual in a 40 gr bullet.

Barnes said that a person can either use the 50gr VLC bullet data or their favorite 40gr bullet data the data I used from was for a 2.215"

thanks for the quick reply!
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Old April 26, 2007, 08:48 PM   #4
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Kato think about it if you put them back in the press and seat them a little deeper its no differant than if you did it the first time.
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Old April 26, 2007, 08:54 PM   #5
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Wait a minute. your loading for a 223 right? The book shows saami to be 2.260! so how is 2.225 to long?
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Old April 26, 2007, 09:04 PM   #6
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at 2.250" it hits the lands I chambered one and it felt wrong pulled it out and looked at it there is marks from the lands and the bullet got pushed down to 2.225".

at the max powder charge won't it compress the powder and isn't that a no no??

yes sorry I forgot to mention it is for the a 223
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Old April 26, 2007, 09:09 PM   #7
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If they will fit in the mag and chamber I would just shoot them. If they won't chamber take one that is a starting load and seat it a little at a time until it does. Measure the OAL and see if it will be safe with the rounds closer to max. You might not have to change them much if any at all. I had to do the same thing will some 9mm I loaded. Be careful with the ones at max and going to short. It would help to know what powder and charge you used.
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Old April 26, 2007, 09:14 PM   #8
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I used h335 I started at 25.5gr and stopped at 28.0gr

I will be right here so If you reply I will only be a minute or two behind with a reply thanks!!!
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Old April 26, 2007, 09:18 PM   #9
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You should have no problem Kato. The differnce between the 2.2 and 2.215 is very small and shouldn't matter unless the powder charges were already peaked out above max.

If you are still concerned keep an eye out for signs of excessive pressure as you work up to the max loads. Which you should be doing anyway considering the data isn't for the bullet you're using.
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Old April 26, 2007, 09:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
at 2.250" it hits the lands I chambered one and it felt wrong pulled it out and looked at it there is marks from the lands and the bullet got pushed down to 2.225".

at the max powder charge won't it compress the powder and isn't that a no no??

yes sorry I forgot to mention it is for the a 223
Did you not determine what your max OAL for this bullet would be before loading these rounds? Try this.

Take an empty case. Cut a vertical slit in the neck, barely into the shoulder, with a hacksaw. Barely seat the bullet you want to use in this case with your hands. Chamber this round in your rifle. Eject it with your hand covering the ejection port. Take it out and measure it from base to tip with your calipers. This will give you MAX OAL (over all length) for that bullet. In other words, this bullet is touching the rifling. Now you can experiment with different seating depths. I've found that my rifle usually gives best accuracy .030" away from the rifling. But you'll just have to experiment as to what shoots the best out of your gun. This method works very well and you don't have to waste money on a Stoney Point guage.

And if you are pushing the bullet down .025" when you chamber them, your bullet is touching the lands. Each bullets ogive is in a different place.
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Old April 26, 2007, 09:23 PM   #11
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ok...

If I push these bullets down into to the case to the 2.215" and it is away from the lands I should be ok??? I was just a little worried with the 28.3gr and pushing the bullets down! Yea I have been checking every case for pressure when I was out shooting the vmax today.

I am in the process of finding the oal right now with every method I can think of without going to the storage unit for the hacksaw!!

I have been using the marker trick.


I put the bullet in chambered it and it pushed it back to 2.225" I am thinking I will start at 2.200" and see how it goes from there!!
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Old April 27, 2007, 07:15 AM   #12
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do not wory about compressing the powder charge, many rounds are made with compressed charges, even factory rounds.
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Old April 27, 2007, 07:48 AM   #13
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Thanks everyone for the quick replies I was freaking out!!!
I dont know why I didn't check the oal before I loaded these up??? Stupid!!

When I chambered the dummy round with too long oal it hit the lands and pushed it down to 2.225" so I backed it up to 2.200" and will go from there.

Thanks again you all have been a lot of help!!
kyle
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Old April 27, 2007, 07:53 AM   #14
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I just checked with a ogive gauge and from base to ogive is .281 on a
50 vmax and .295 on a varmint grenade that's just .14 difference from base to ogive Im still confused!
oal of bullet is .772 for vmax and .696 for the VG. the VG is a long bullet for a 36 grain because it is non lead and long for its weight. Kato what weight vmax were you shooting?
if the vmax were OK it looks to me that if you loaded oal on the VG.S .25 shorter than the vmax. if 35-40's vm's probably not!
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Last edited by dgc940; April 27, 2007 at 08:30 AM.
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Old April 27, 2007, 11:51 AM   #15
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I was shooting the 40gr vmax bullets. I loaded the 40 gr vmax at 2.235"
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Old April 27, 2007, 06:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
I just checked with a ogive gauge and from base to ogive is .281 on a
50 vmax and .295 on a varmint grenade
Wow that's a short cartridge! A little over 1/4 inch!


Quote:
I am in the process of finding the oal right now with every method I can think of without going to the storage unit for the hacksaw!!
You don't have to cut the slit, but it makes pulling the bullet out much easier. You could not cut the slit, and leave the bullet in and use this round for future reference.
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Old April 27, 2007, 06:34 PM   #17
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thats what I do I just made a dummy. thats the one I use just pull it if I need to and mark it up with a marker to check for the lands
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Old April 27, 2007, 10:46 PM   #18
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I don't get it. If you barely seat the bullet in the case, then chamber it, it will seat on the lands. Then take it out and measure it base to tip. This is your max OAL for that bullet. Say this comes out to 2.503" for instance. Now say you want to be .030" away from the lands, you would make your cartridges 2.473". What's the marker for?
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Old April 27, 2007, 10:57 PM   #19
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Mr22 what I was measuring was just the bullet from base to ogive.
Not loaded round . I think hes using a black marker on the bullet to see marks from the lands.
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Old April 27, 2007, 11:03 PM   #20
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I still dont understand how he can have such a short chamber that it will only accept a col of 2.225 and the manuals say 2.260 saami max?
Ive personally never seen a rifle where the saami specs were anywhere near the lands.
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Old April 27, 2007, 11:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
mrawesome22
Take an empty case. Cut a vertical slit in the neck, barely into the shoulder, with a hacksaw. Barely seat the bullet you want to use in this case with your hands. Chamber this round in your rifle. Eject it with your hand covering the ejection port. Take it out and measure it from base to tip with your calipers. This will give you MAX OAL (over all length) for that bullet. In other words, this bullet is touching the rifling. Now you can experiment with different seating depths. I've found that my rifle usually gives best accuracy .030" away from the rifling. But you'll just have to experiment as to what shoots the best out of your gun.

I believe that if you cut a slit in the case you won’t be at MAX OAL but somewhere less. If you use a case (for your dummy round) with the neck tension you will be using in your loaded ammo you will get the true MAX OAL referred to as Jam length. Then measure using a comparator (not to the bullet tip) you will have a measurement that will be repeatable. Bullet tips will vary and so will the measurements made there.
The marker is to color the bullet to make the marks made by the lands easier to see.

Quote:
mrawesome22
Each bullets ogive is in a different place.
I believe you are confused. All bullet ogives that I know of are ahead of the bearing surface. I believe what you probably meant to say was that the distance from the base of a bullet to the part that contacts the lands can vary or that the place on the ogive that a bullet comparator measures from to where the bullet contacts the lands can vary (when using bullets that are shaped different or have different lengths)
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Old April 27, 2007, 11:35 PM   #22
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dgc- That why I was confused when I had lands marks on the bullets after I had loaded these to 2.255". I had thought that they could go to a max of 2.260" but apparently I was wrong. I thought it was just me doing something wrond to I seated, chambered, measured, pulled and then repeated about 100 times to make sure I wasn't the one that was wrong. but everytime the cartrige comes out at 2.225". so I took mrawesomes advise and backed off from there. because apparently my max length for that bullet is going to be 2.225" and that is into the lands.


I dont need the marker but it is just a little easier to see. yes if the bullet gets pushed down I could just back off from there but it is still nice to see that everything is all clear just for my own sanity!

thanks guys!
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Old April 27, 2007, 11:41 PM   #23
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If you use my method the bullet will be touching the lands Bullet94. And the case head will be against the bolt face. Bullet tips do vary. Use a comparator then, but who's to say bullet ogives don't vary? But that's not the issue here. I don't think Kato "gets it". Using my method, why would you need to see rifling marks on the bullet? To make sure he's not using a shotgun by accident? LOL
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Old April 27, 2007, 11:49 PM   #24
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mrawesome22
Each bullets ogive is in a different place.
I believe you are confused.
What I mean is, say you take a 50gr VMAX, Gameking, and BT. Each bullet has a different bearing surface length. This puts the ogive of each of these bullets in different places. BTW, in .224", the Nosler BT has the shortest bearing surface of the 3. This means the ogive is farther back, thus has to be loaded the longest to get close to the lands. Sorry if I didn't explain myself well enough.
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Old April 28, 2007, 12:12 AM   #25
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If you use my method the bullet will be touching the lands Bullet94.
Yes but that is not the true MAX OAL.

Quote:
but who's to say bullet ogives don't vary?
Not me I believe they do vary especially when comparing bullets of different lengths or shapes.

Quote:
I don't think Kato "gets it". Using my method, why would you need to see rifling marks on the bullet? To make sure he's not using a shotgun by accident? LOL
If your method really is measuring to just the start of the lands then reducing OAL from there will always have the bullet off the lands. But it never hurts to verify this especially if you’re new to reloading or if you just want to check to make sure where the lands start. I’ve used a marker to make seeing the marks from the lands easier and measured to the start of the lands and then seated the bullet .001 more into the case with no marks from the lands. I don’t care where the lands start in my rifle. I only care where it shoots the best.
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