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Old July 17, 2007, 08:32 AM   #26
PAR
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A few weeks ago, I had called ATF to discuss the transfer of an "individually owned" item to a "trust." The answer from the examiner was: "ATF considers each to be a separate entity and as such moving an item from one status to another requires a new registration (stamp)."

Yeah, it sucks since you are the owner but then again this is our government at work.
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Old July 17, 2007, 09:29 AM   #27
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I really cannot forsee a reason why you would want/need to transfer an item out of trust, if you are the trustee, and to yourself. Unless maybe you use a trust that needs to be revoked because of divorce or death or some other situation. This is why most folks make a trust for only their NFA toys and a separate trust for everything else.
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Old July 17, 2007, 03:50 PM   #28
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I just sent out a F1 in the name of my newly-formed revocable living trust. Dang it was handy to bypass the 3-4week wait for CLEO signoffs I hope to have it approved before that time is up!
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Old July 17, 2007, 04:50 PM   #29
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Maybe I am just lucky, but my CLEO was happy to sign the paperwork.
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Old July 17, 2007, 06:00 PM   #30
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My last form 1 took 16 days door to door.
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Old July 17, 2007, 08:08 PM   #31
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Maybe I am just lucky, but my CLEO was happy to sign the paperwork.
My CLEO is happy to sign as well. The problem is that I have to go through the newly-formed Metro PD here (Indianapolis) and that merger between the city cops and the county mounties has backed up the process and now it averages 3-4 weeks just to get the signoff! You can't just go see the chief and expect him to sign, the city/county has a process for NFA signoffs.
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Old July 18, 2007, 04:48 AM   #32
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Thank you PAR, that definately answered my question. And VUPDblue, thats exactly the type of situation I was worried about, even though I am not married, yet. I'm going to get a trust set up and get an AAC Aviator! Thanks guys/gals!
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Old July 20, 2007, 07:50 PM   #33
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NFACurious,

Good choice, I have one of their EVO-9's - great product. I also have a TAC 65 for my 22's, you'll have a ball but it won't be your last once this bug bites.


Have you been over here:

http://www.silencertalk.com
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Old July 22, 2007, 06:08 PM   #34
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Ok last question before I purchase Quicken Willmaker, hopefully. What do you do when you move instate? out of state?

And PAR, yes I love that place and http://www.silencerresearch.com/ I already plan on an AAC Ranger. And thinking about a TAC Quest or AAC Prodigy to see how a dissasembleable suppressor will do. I also want an Evo-9. *sigh* So many cans, so little time.
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Old July 22, 2007, 10:07 PM   #35
PAR
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The trust name will remain the same; however, you have to notify ATF of the the address change. Before moving out of state make sure they don't have any restrictions with the trust, LA is one which doesn't recognize Quicken. Other states do but some require that you register the trust with the county clerk.

As for 22's can, definitely look at one that disassembles.
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Old July 23, 2007, 03:13 AM   #36
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Gonna play the devil's advocate here, so beware.

IIRC, the NFA of 1934 doesn't list trusts as acceptable, even though the current BATFE regime has them listed on Forms and has been accepting them.
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Old July 23, 2007, 09:39 AM   #37
PAR
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True, trust are not specifically mentioned but they haven't been excluded either and the ATF legal staff has determined that the trust is an entity similar to corporations. In fact, a trust is a little more controlling than an corporation because you're limited to yourself or you and a spouse as an A/B trust; whereas, under a corporation, any listed corporate officers in the company charter (including the janitor if listed) are able to take possession of the item.

Could they change their mind, sure thing they have done it in the pass on a number of issues but it might be an up-hill battle to revoke current stamps given all the approvals. If anything, they may just slam the door shut on future transfers.

It is also true that if you can get a CLEO sign-off that is the way to go, if anything to prevent the nay-sayer's but unfortunately too many CLEO's are trying to force their own political policy on people as opposed to providing a service and finding out what's in their backyard. This was probably at the heart of why TN passed a bill requiring CLEO's to sign-off on Form 4's.
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Old August 26, 2007, 06:33 PM   #38
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Okay I have a question. Sorry if it sounds dumb or already answered but I want to be real clear here before I proceed.

I want to buy a can for one of my AR's. I am retired LEO but do not live now where I served and the CLEO where I am is pro-gun but not pro-NFA for indiv's. I of course have no background issues and have held a valid CCW permit since 1995. Since retirement I own an active business (several Million per year in sales) that employees 20 folks and is a fully Registered LLC in my state. Given that, can I do the paperwork in this "real" businessess name and forego the CLEO requirement?
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Old August 26, 2007, 10:31 PM   #39
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Yes, you can use your business LLC as the owner of the weapon..
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Old August 27, 2007, 01:26 AM   #40
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Transfers to another trust would incur new tax stamps.
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Old August 27, 2007, 02:23 AM   #41
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BCI

To avoid the "Abuse of power" commonly experienced by individuals seeking the CLEO sign-off, Our Governor in Utah has made the statement that Utah is an NFA friendly state! Although it still costs a few bucks, we are able to go to the BCI (Bureau of Criminal Identification) and get fingerprints and the Signature in under an hour for about $13. I do like the idea of not waiting six weeks for form 4 to come back though! I may try the trust thing next time! Between the $16 I paid Kinkos for my photos and the $13 for prints, I can pay for the software in one submittal! The NFA craze is pretty amazing here in the Salt Lake Valley! Who would have known how many folks have no problem blowing $15-20K on a Registered sear (with free HK rifle) or Steyr AUG! We have a couple shops Dedicated to tactical weapons and machine guns! You won't find any Hunting rifles there!
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Old September 24, 2007, 07:29 PM   #42
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Please also be advised, that when you pick up an NFA item from your dealer (F1s don't do this, of course) you are required to do a 4473 on it with your personal information. You must present your driver license or other acceptable form of ID. The dealer checks "No NICS check was required because the transfer involved only NFA firearms" Question 22 on Page 2 of the Form 4473 so he doesn't need your CCW.

In addition. ATFE Form 4473 States in “Instructions to Transferee/Buyer”, Number 2.:

“When the buyer of a firearm is a corporation, company, association, partnership or other such business entity, an officer authorized to act on behalf of the business must complete Section A of the form with his or her personal information, sign section A, and attach a written statement, executed under penalties of perjury, stating: (A) the firearm is being acquired for the use of and will be the property of that business entity, and (B) the name and address of that business entity.”

I have a form made up in Word that I print and hand to the purchaser of an NFA device, which details the above instructions, and constitutes a statement, executed under penalties of perjury, and describing the Business entity and their position within same to satisfy those requirements.

(If anyone wants it, just email me and I'll send it to you)

I meet Dealers/Mfgrs all the time who say "What 4473. I just handed him his approved F4 and sent them on their way."

If, in the future, ATF/NFA decides to "ping" us on these Trusts, I think that's where they'll start, in that the Dealers are not asking the Transferee to sign the statement which is required, and it puts the Dealer and the Transferee in a legally vulnerable situation.

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Old September 26, 2007, 07:33 AM   #43
Tim Burke
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Sorry, but I'm late to this thread.
Quote:
Transfers to another trust would incur new tax stamps.
I suspected as much. However, my understanding is that an NFA weapon can be inherited without paying for a new tax stamp, although the heir still has to go through the Form 4 process. Could the weapon be left to the trust?
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Old September 26, 2007, 10:05 AM   #44
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Quote:
although the heir still has to go through the Form 4 process
Merely a technicality, but it is a Form5 which is an application for tax-free transfer.

I don't see why it couldn't be left to a trust.
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Old September 27, 2007, 04:37 PM   #45
PAR
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It can be left in the trust but for you to take possession, you have to be named in the original trust. The form 5 allows you to do the tax free transfer to yourself as an individual or to another trust; however, you still have to go through all the paperwork to get to that point.
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Old October 2, 2007, 12:30 PM   #46
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two hundred

I think you should figure 200 bucks every time you do anything with your weapon....!

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Old October 8, 2007, 01:50 PM   #47
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Question: if your CLEO in the area is unfriendly to NFA stuff but you use the trust method to get around them, do they get notice that you've made the purchases? Do they get a list of owners in their area?
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Old October 8, 2007, 01:51 PM   #48
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Quote:
do they get notice that you've made the purchases? Do they get a list of owners in their area?

No
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Old October 19, 2007, 08:49 PM   #49
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Quicken Gun Trust

I have seen many of the trusts created by quicken and other software. Although it will accomplish your desired result of acquiring the Class 3 weapons, you put your family and friends at substantial risk. In addition, I have noticed that most people with these trusts pay the dealer directly instead of taking the proper precautions of creating a trust bank account and using the trust to complete the transaction. When you pay personally, you are at risk of the BAFTE stating that you made the purchase, and then transferred the item to the trust, 2 yes 2 violations of the NFA.

Your trustee needs special powers that are not granted by quicken, they need the ability to say not to an asset transfer, and need to be required to do a new form for upon a subsequent transfer. In addition they may need to comply with your state laws, Florida has no additional state laws dealing with Class III items, but there needs to be custom language in many places in the trust to protect the successor trustee or eventual beneficiaries of the items.

what happens if your beneficiary is a minor, or something happens to them and you would never give them a gun, who can or will make those decisions.

Be very careful using a generic trust as you are potentially putting your family and friends at a substantial risk of criminal and civil liability. You should speak to a gun lawyer in your state to find out more of these issues. most will not charge to speak to you.
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Old October 29, 2007, 02:09 PM   #50
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In Quicken, when it asks for property to be held in trust, what are you guys putting? Are you putting descriptions including serial numbers, or just something like "NFA related items"? How do you later add items to the trust?

I already have a trust set up for property and other assets, and I want to make a separate one that I only use for NFA stuff.
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