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Old April 9, 2007, 07:13 PM   #1
rangermonroe
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"Trust method" suppressor

I used the "Quicken Will maker" software to create a revokable living trust.

My wife and I have very few assets, so it was quite simple. Maybe about 20 minutes at the computer. I had it notarized, and made a copy.

I dropped it off at my NFA dealer on the 16th of March.

I got a call from him today, April 9th, to p/u my can.

Less than 4 weeks door to door, and my wife has full possession of the suppressor as well as I.

I spent $22 on the software on e-bay.
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Old April 9, 2007, 07:35 PM   #2
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umm??
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Old April 9, 2007, 09:36 PM   #3
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Good job, Ranger. I wish I had gone the Trust route. Keeps those pesky CLEO signoffs and fingerprint cards at bay. And certain others can use your toys without hassle.
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Old April 9, 2007, 10:00 PM   #4
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That's an excellant idea.
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Old April 10, 2007, 12:36 AM   #5
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Wait... some fancy paperwork with a notary and will software gets around the signoff deal with the head-honcho cop of your area?

Seems too good to be true.
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Old April 10, 2007, 05:42 AM   #6
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Again.......

How does this work?
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Old April 10, 2007, 07:51 AM   #7
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Nope, not too good to be true. You can establish a trust or corporation and those entities can have the NFA toys transferred to them and not just an individual. Executors of the Trust, or Officers of the Corporation can posess the weapons. There is also no requirement for a CLEO signoff and no fingerprints are required.
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Old April 10, 2007, 12:16 PM   #8
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I just did the same thing with Quicken will maker...made a so called "simple trust". I purchased a 5.56 suppressor and a suppressed .22 ruger pistol.
Mailbox to mailbox was 36 days total. the Individual form 1 with CLEO signoff last oct. was 47 days..so it was 11 days faster.

a simple trust will come out in two parts...Declaration of Trust, and Certification of Trust. ATF wants a copy of the Certification of trust to go along with your two 18USC compliance forms and two form 1's or 4's (would work on a form 5 as well to get one that you inhereted)

No passport pic
no fingerprint cards
No CLEO signoff
(ATF will run a criminal history on the "Grantor and Trustee" (that means you)
It will NOT allow you to have a NFA item that isnt allowed by your state.
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Old April 10, 2007, 12:22 PM   #9
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Here is an example of a form 1 filled out as a trust instead of an individual.

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Old April 10, 2007, 03:02 PM   #10
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So with this I could have a SBR IN my state? I want a SBR, but have to pay the tax the move the weapon out of the state to shoot it, and it may never return to this state. Would this form bypass that?
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Old April 10, 2007, 06:11 PM   #11
p99guy
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as stated in post #8 "It will NOT allow you to have a NFA item that isnt allowed by your state."

(this only bypasses the signoff and fingerprints/passport pics..thats all)

You have to go with the rules of where you reside, if your state says no...then you cant have it (unless you move to a state that allows, then purchase. A NFA firearm has to be under your direct control...that means not stored with somebody else in another state. If a ATF agent ever comes to the house wanting to see the gun and you cant produce it by just walking in the other room to the gunsafe..Lucy you gonna have some spa'nin to do. The address on the papers is where the gun lives, if you move you must notify ATF of the guns new address.
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Old April 10, 2007, 08:42 PM   #12
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In my case, the CLEO refuses to sign. This was a nice side step around him.

But as I live in a hurricane zone, and I intend to SB my ps 90s, I would be able to send one with the wife without her breaking the law.

Not to mention that it was quick!
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Old April 11, 2007, 12:20 AM   #13
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OK, I have a question. I have my TAC-16 and TAC-62 transfered to me. I have been thinking about building a 10/22 SBR and using the trust method.

If I set up the living trust, I am the "grantor", correct. (Just clearing up the legal speak.)

What exactly are the costs invilved in setting up and maintaining a trust?

If I added other people to the trust, allowing them to have and use the NFA items in the trust, would I still be the only one who is able to make changes to the trust? (Just want to make sure, I'm sure we have all had a long time friendship go bad.)

Thanks,
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Old April 11, 2007, 11:11 AM   #14
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You are the "Grantor and Trustee"
the cost involved..if you go to a lawyer about 250.00 for a simple Trust, if you do it your self...53.00 for Quicken willmaker, and if your notery charges 5.00 bucks (your bank will likely notorize for free) that is you total expense.

there are no yearly reups/fees like involved with the corporate route, in texas
a trust isnt filed with the local courthouse or state...so its really a private matter (unlike corporate)

a basic trust as done on Quicken isnt going to allow you to put multiple trustees on the trust...It will be you,
and a person that becomes the trustee upon your death or serious incapatation to over see the items in the trust..in my case my wife....but I have sole control over the trust items, its not a shared...(ONE trustee at a time) there is no "co-trustee"....


If you want something more complicated a lawyer will have to be consulted. likely if you want a way for 15 people to be able to use a NFA item , a trust isnt the instrement that will work. You will have to incorporate
and the others become officers in your corporation. But then comes getting an employer tax ID number, keeping books, reporting wages to SSI on your employees and generating W4's or 1099's for the corporate officers, paying a fee every so often to renew the corporatation with the state..and so on and so on


b. Comparing Wills and Basic Trusts
Both wills and basic living trusts let you leave your property to the people you want to inherit it. You can revoke or change a will or living trust at any time, for any reason, before you die.

The big difference is that assets left in trust don't have to go through probate court proceedings at your death. This is because when you create a living trust, you must transfer ownership of the designated property to yourself as "trustee" of the trust. During your lifetime, you still have control over all the property transferred to your living trust and can do what you want with it -- sell it, spend it or give it away. Then, after your death, the person you named to take over as trustee distributes the property to the family and friends you named.
Why avoid probate? In a nutshell, because for most families it's a waste of time and money. It typically takes from nine to 18 months to file a deceased person's will with the court, gather the assets, pay debts and taxes and eventually distribute what is left as the will directs. Fees for attorneys, appraisers, accountants and probate court can reduce by about 5% the amount left for survivors to inherit. Unless relatives are fighting over who gets what, or there are big claims against the estate, a court-supervised process is seldom necessary.

Making a living trust involves more paperwork than making a will, because you must transfer ownership of the property to yourself as trustee and conduct future personal business in the name of the trust. But there is no need to file a separate tax return for the trust. All transactions, such as the sale of trust property at a profit, are reported on your personal income tax return.

A trust also offers a way that the trust property can be taken care of if someday you can't handle it yourself. If you become incapacitated, the person you appointed in your trust to take over after your death can step in and manage trust property. If you don't have a trust, close family members may have to go to court to get that kind of authority. (You can also arrange for property management in a durable power of attorney for finances, discussed in Chapter 22.)

A will can do one important thing that a living trust can't: let you name someone (called a personal guardian) to raise your young children in the unlikely event that neither you nor the other parent is available.

Another difference that may matter to you: Unlike wills, living trusts are not made public at your death.
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Old April 11, 2007, 11:38 AM   #15
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The second type of trust you can do with Quicken is called an "AB" trust



2. The Estate Tax-Reducing AB Trust
The second kind of trust you can make with Quicken WillMaker Plus is an "AB" or bypass trust, which lets married couples avoid both probate and federal estate tax.
Estate tax is not a concern for most people. The tax is levied on the property you own at your death -- but a large amount of property is exempt from taxation. Currently, that amount is $2 million, which means that most people don't need to worry about estate tax. The exemption amount is scheduled to keep rising until 2010, when the estate tax vanishes completely. But there's another wrinkle: Unless Congress reauthorizes these changes, the estate tax will automatically reappear in 2011, with an exempt amount of $1 million.

If you're married, estate tax is most likely to be an issue when the second spouse dies. (When the first spouse dies, everything left to the survivor passes tax-free.) But if the second spouse owns all the couple's property, and it's worth more than the estate tax exemption, estate tax will be due. If that's the case, it's worth doing some tax planning, because the tax is steep.

With an AB trust, you leave property first to your spouse (in trust, with certain restrictions) and then to your children. Because the second spouse never legally owns the deceased spouse's property, her estate won't owe tax on it at her death. With a special kind of AB trust called a disclaimer trust, the surviving spouse decides, after the first spouse dies, whether or not to create the tax-saving trust. A disclaimer trust can be useful for couples who aren't sure whether or not estate tax will be a concern for the surviving spouse. For more about whether an AB trust is right for you, see Chapter 14.
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Old May 6, 2007, 10:32 PM   #16
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Llc...

I have an LLC that I have all my NFA registered to. A little know fact is that it is not *just* the officers in the LLC than can have possission. If one of the officers issue a "responsible person" letter along with a copy of the F4, anyone employed by the corporation or designated as a holding party can legally posses the item/shoot it at will.

The same goes for when you leave your suppressor with a friend while your away, a "responsible person" letter is allowable. I would recomend the corp or person also file a 5320.20 letting the ATF officially know of what is happening. But there are *NO* required storage requirements levied by the BATF&E for storage. Most people think that if you leave it with someone, they cannot have access to the item. This is incorrect. They can access and shoot the item in question as long as its on a temporary basis. This has to be outlined in the "Responsible Person" letter. Otherwise it could be misconstruded as a 'transfer', and the ATF really gets their panties in a wad if someone 'transfers' NFA without the F4 Tax being paid.

LLC's and trusts are a very good way of getting around A$$-hole CLEO's that abuse their authority. I just wish the ATF would coyboy the F&C@ up and come down on the CLEO's illegal activity.

To any measure, I strongly suggest you call your *local* ATF office and WRITE THEM (as a followup) and find out what that SAIC's views are on storage of NFA is. Afterall its that person's personal views that decide if you get charged with a violation. Unfortunetly the law is written (intentionally) so that it can be interpreted to mean whatever the hell they want it to mean for that moment. For us military/exmilitary types, its like the UCMJ.
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Old May 6, 2007, 10:33 PM   #17
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LLC's......

I have an LLC that I have all my NFA registered to. A little know fact is that it is not *just* the officers in the LLC than can have possission. If one of the officers issue a "responsible person" letter along with a copy of the F4, anyone employed by the corporation or designated as a holding party can legally posses the item/shoot it at will.

The same goes for when you leave your suppressor with a friend while your away, a "responsible person" letter is allowable. I would recomend the corp or person also file a 5320.20 letting the ATF officially know of what is happening. But there are *NO* required storage requirements levied by the BATF&E for storage. Most people think that if you leave it with someone, they cannot have access to the item. This is incorrect. They can access and shoot the item in question as long as its on a temporary basis. This has to be outlined in the "Responsible Person" letter. Otherwise it could be misconstruded as a 'transfer', and the ATF really gets their panties in a wad if someone 'transfers' NFA without the F4 Tax being paid.

LLC's and trusts are a very good way of getting around A$$-hole CLEO's that abuse their authority. I just wish the ATF would coyboy the F&C@ up and come down on the CLEO's illegal activity.

To any measure, I strongly suggest you call your *local* ATF office and WRITE THEM (as a followup) and find out what that SAIC's views are on storage of NFA is. Afterall its that person's personal views that decide if you get charged with a violation. Unfortunetly the law is written (intentionally) so that it can be interpreted to mean whatever the hell they want it to mean for that moment. For us military/exmilitary types, its like the UCMJ.
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Old May 7, 2007, 12:21 AM   #18
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actually, it is not entirely up to you to determine who the responsible party is.
prevailing law(s) determine this first. Absent any prohibition at local or
federal level, you may. There needs to be direct and clear tie to the corp
entity. You may have meant this already and it just wasn't that clear to me.
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Old May 13, 2007, 12:55 PM   #19
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Absentee allowance??

As with all privately owned NFA, if you leave and go an area that you cannot own/possess the items, you can sign the unit over to a "Responsible Person", baring the fact that this individual isn't banned from possession or purchase of firearms/related items if he/she were to go obtain the item themselves.

In the case of a Corporation or Trust, by placing the item in the care of a 3rd party, you are by no means affiliating a transfer as long as the Responsible Person letter gives a clear a definitive date schedule as to when the item will return to your (or corporate) possession. In the way of many of our LLC's the company is usually comprised by 1 employee. When this person has to temporarily leave the area, under corporate governance, can assign corporate matters to any individual he/she wishes (via a simple Power of Attorney Agreement). If you temporarily give control of your company to another person, for all legal intents and purposes, that person is now the owner (under the clauses of the POA Agreement), for the duration of the agreed upon time. Its the same with corporate assets.

A Responsible Person letter is essentially a Power of Attorney Agreement. It's best to have it notarized. List full names, identifying information, places, dates, and if possible times as to when it becomes effective, and when It sunsets.

A corporate asset is a corporate asset... regardless of its legal affiliation.

Individuals and companies are legally allowed to 'rent' NFA items out at will. You can also place the items into someone else's care for safekeeping while on TDY or "temporarily" out of the area or rent it to them at will.

The ATF nor the Government expect owners of NFA or Firearms to rush out and get a safety deposit box every time they leave the area.... Nor do they wish you to stick it in-between your bed and box-springs and leave it in your apartment unprotected.... Its the lesser of two evils.

Obviously, if you or the corporate title has an NFA item, then you are pretty well aware of the applicable laws (the base-line ones anyways), and should be responsible enough not to sign it over to a felon to watch over it.... regardless of your responsible person letter, if the person you've put in charge of it cannot legally possess the item as if it were theirs... you're screwed.

If you're leaving for a long period of time, it is best to put it into a safe-deposit-box, but you can legally sign it over to be 'governed and protected' by another responsible person for the duration of time that you will be gone.

Be VERY careful that you do not ‘straw purchase’ an NFA item and think that this clause will get you around giving your NFA item to someone as a gift… If the ATF wants, they will ask and inquire about the situation as to how the item is in possession of the responsible person. There better be a DAMN good explanation.

If you are a corporate owner, just Power of Attorney the corporation governance to the person, and all corporate assets fall suite.

If you are an individual or have a ‘trust’, a “responsible person”, notarized letter would serve to give temporary custody of your ‘NFA child’…. Temporary being the key word.

The ATF is chuck full of VERY smart people. They are not stupid, and will be able to tell EXCEPTIONALLY QUICKLY if the intentions of the “Responsible Person” letter are for that person to actual care for the item while you are away, or if it’s a ‘transfer’.

If I were going to give my NFA to some else to watch over it for me, I would write the RP letter, notarize it (4 copies) and send 2 copies along with 2 ATF Form: 5320.20’s and a 2 copies of a letter that you write explaining what you are wanting to do. Do this SEVERAL weeks in advance (or as soon as you know you leaving the area).

You can also keep it open ended, you don’t have to close it out. BUT BE ON ACTUAL TRAVEL OR ACTUALLY AWAY! Don’t be stupid with it thinking the ATF will not prosecute your as$ because you gave someone a “Responsible Person” letter and they happen to be your next-door neighbor, and you’re home. Or think that you can “rent” your item to that person for a long period of time….. don’t be stupid!

People at gun shows not only sold replacement wipes for suppressors but every other part including the tubes one would need to build one… so now a single baffle for a suppressor is considered a silencer….. Don’t abuse the privilege of allowing your NFA to be cared for by someone else. It will F*&$ that convenience up for everyone else that is abiding by the laws.
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Old July 11, 2007, 05:10 AM   #20
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Ok, I have a question. Sorry if I missed the answer in this post or another.

Say I get a trust set up, and I have family in another state that I regularly visit. Both states allow ownership of NFA weapons. Can I take my suppressor from state to state if the family member in the other state is part of the trust?
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Old July 11, 2007, 08:42 AM   #21
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You can travel through NFA friendly states with your suppressor...it has nothing to do with who is in a trust(no prior permission paperwork envolved). a Machinegun however requires prior written permission from ATF to take out of the state you reside in( a form you fill out beforehand) before you go to a Knob Creek shoot or whatever.

a trust in many ways is like a living will..it gives directives on what to do with estate items in the trust upon your death...when you die another trustee takes over...it avoids probate and some inheritence taxes from hitting family members that things are left to...its not a corporation,that can have multiple people to have access to a suppressor.

The wife and you can have a trust that is joint(AB trust)..and would typically be used to put the house and furnature etc...things that you own together, and would be tangled in probate if you died..or contested by low life reletives.
None of these living will/trust instrements give "uncle bob in another state the ability to borrow
a suppressor..even if he is listed as the person to take over the trust when you die.

other than that the last 5 paragraphs apply of Douglas's post just above yours -"responsible person"
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Old July 15, 2007, 04:04 AM   #22
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Thanks for the reply p99guy.. But I have another question. What happens when you want to get rid of the trust in favor of a better one? Or decided to revoke the trust for other reasons? And how many trusts can you have at one point in time?
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Old July 15, 2007, 12:51 PM   #23
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Don't you only need one trust for all of your NFA items?
As far as the trust method, if you're adding other people, do they have to be related? I've never heard anything about anything else.
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Old July 16, 2007, 11:04 AM   #24
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You can have more than one trust, there are those out there that have one just for their NFA toys and one for property, etc.. Keep in mind that if you transfer an NFA item from an "individual owner" status to a trust, you'll have to file it again and pay another the $200.

As for family members, A/B trust are recognized for married couples only; however, you should check your state law.
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Old July 17, 2007, 05:02 AM   #25
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So if you revoke the trust that has your NFA items, you would have to "sell" them to yourself for another $200 a pop?
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