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Old March 14, 2007, 12:52 PM   #26
Redworm
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The media may report it, but gunowners as a whole categorize themselves as right-wing extremists. See, for instance, any thread here on topics such as immigration or gay marriage.
Just look at General Pace's comments about gays in the military. And people wonder why the left has a hard time supporting the military when its leaders clamor about how it must remain the exclusive all boys club without any of those fruits - even the desperatly essential Arabic cryptolinguists - causing a drop in morale among uniformed bigots.

When a large number of gun owners make it a point to call a large number of left leaning folks abominations it's no wonder we lose support.
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Old March 14, 2007, 12:53 PM   #27
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The media may report it, but gunowners as a whole categorize themselves as right-wing extremists. See, for instance, any thread here on topics such as immigration or gay marriage.
Well said! Time to purge or marginalize and bring guns back into the mainstream.

Maybe its nostalgia, but I remember when guns werent demonized....blame the lefties for doing that? maybe in part, but I blame gun owners themselves who have allowed certain elements to represent them, elements far outside the political mainstream.

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Old March 14, 2007, 01:02 PM   #28
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Well, Wild, you did it to me again. I have to agree with you. I used to be mainstream and the suckers moved the center... again. My beliefs are all over the place, according to the media.

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Old March 14, 2007, 01:15 PM   #29
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Wildalaska

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"Maybe its nostalgia, but I remember when guns werent demonized....blame the lefties for doing that? maybe in part, but I blame gun owners themselves..."
"Demonizing" guns is a major ploy on the part of those who would rid society of the damn things. "Saturday night specials", "assault rifles", "gun culture" and like phraseology are used in attempts to make an inanimate object appear evil. Using such tactics to make ownership of certain guns, or all guns, illegal can hardly be attributed to gun owners.
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Old March 14, 2007, 01:21 PM   #30
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Well said WildAlaska!
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Old March 14, 2007, 01:37 PM   #31
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Banning guns in the name of state security puts the state before the individual, which is technically a form of statism but is a moral cousin to socialism.
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Old March 14, 2007, 01:44 PM   #32
JuanCarlos
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"Demonizing" guns is a major ploy on the part of those who would rid society of the damn things. "Saturday night specials", "assault rifles", "gun culture" and like phraseology are used in attempts to make an inanimate object appear evil. Using such tactics to make ownership of certain guns, or all guns, illegal can hardly be attributed to gun owners.
True. Then again, perhaps the fact that the owners of those certain guns have no positive example to counter it with is part of the reason it's so darn effective.

Look around here. Gaybashing, thinly veiled racism, and conspiracy theories (ranging from the mildly plausible to the "black helicopter" fantastic). Spelling California with a K and juxtaposing a prominent politician's name with that of a bloodthirsty terrorist are the height of wit and rational debate for many. When all else fails we fall back on lovely catchphrases regarding our "cold, dead hands."

This is what the "mainstream" sees when they look at gunowners...at least (and especially) at those who want to own such things as "assault rifles." It's not like we're reaching out to the middle, or even the open-minded left...we're retreating into shell, talking about how much we hate everybody and how society is changing, and arming ourselves.
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Old March 14, 2007, 01:50 PM   #33
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"the open-minded left"
That certainly qualifies as the oxymoron of the day!!

I know, I know..............
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Old March 14, 2007, 01:58 PM   #34
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Look around here. Gaybashing, thinly veiled racism, and conspiracy theories (ranging from the mildly plausible to the "black helicopter" fantastic). Spelling California with a K and juxtaposing a prominent politician's name with that of a bloodthirsty terrorist are the height of wit and rational debate for many. When all else fails we fall back on lovely catchphrases regarding our "cold, dead hands."

This is what the "mainstream" sees when they look at gunowners...at least (and especially) at those who want to own such things as "assault rifles." It's not like we're reaching out to the middle, or even the open-minded left...we're retreating into shell, talking about how much we hate everybody and how society is changing, and arming ourselves.
Bravo!

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Old March 14, 2007, 01:59 PM   #35
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Well said! Time to purge or marginalize and bring guns back into the mainstream.
Hmmm... I'll hope you'll be happy with the three remaining gun owners who are second amendment absolutists who are not extreme right wing, left wing, libertarians or communists.

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"It's not like the media is simply making these things up or are being controlled by some secret cabal of gun haters. Anyone who believes this is the case is just another example of the paranoid conspiracy theoriest that is giving the rest of us gun owners a bad name."
You're right, they are a very well publicized cabal of gun haters. They aren't trying to be secretive about it. Though sometimes they try to appear fair and balanced on the subject while secretly screwing us over like the CNN concrete block/body armor AK-47 switcheroo video.

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I'm not talking about American representatives on my comment about far left and far right, I am talking about idealogy and policy relating to those positions.
It's all well and good to look at the man behind the party, but the simple fact is that the vast majority of leftist politicians want to ban guns, and a majority of rightist politicians (barring a couple of RINOs and ones who simply disagree, out of literally hundreds or thousands of major politicians) do not want to ban guns. Exceptions on either side are just that.

If you think Hillary Clinton is center-right, that is your opinion that you'll not find shared by many inside of the United States and certain select Communist Party circles.

What the word "Democrat" means outside of the US is totally irrelevant. It's just a name, and it is in fact the right wing party in some countries, like Australia.

Let's hope that never becomes the case here eh?

In conclusion, I don't know what point you're trying to make, obviously noone believes that all leftists are anti-gun communistas. Hillary Clinton, as you mentioned, would enact several socialist policies. That may not make her a socialist, but it's a direction people opposed to socialism DO NOT want to move in.

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"the open-minded left"
That certainly qualifies as the oxymoron of the day!
Yup. All of the bleeding heart liberals I know are impervious to reason. It's like trying to tell a 17th century Catholic priest about evolution, it's going against everything he's been taught since birth. Same with many in California.
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:02 PM   #36
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Ah Heck. I joined this Forum to learn about firearms, training etc... Not Political Debates... although maybe those go together at times.

All I know is that it seems to be the Democrat Party that pushes gun control, its the Democrat Party that pushes gay Marriage, Higher Taxes, Pro-Abortion, Pulling out of a war that they are just as responcible for, Etc...

Ooops Is that what this is about? No... Gun control laws... Oh, yeah...
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:10 PM   #37
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"All I know is that it seems to be the Democrat Party that pushes gun control, its the Democrat Party that pushes gay Marriage, Higher Taxes, Pro-Abortion....."

You are just so.......so.......so........intolerant.
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:14 PM   #38
CobrayCommando
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Gaybashing, thinly veiled racism, and conspiracy theories (ranging from the mildly plausible to the "black helicopter" fantastic). Spelling California with a K and juxtaposing a prominent politician's name with that of a bloodthirsty terrorist are the height of wit and rational debate for many.
I know for a fact that on many leftist forums conspiracy theories suggesting that Bush really blew up the towers, a variety of different scenarios for the Shotgun Cheney incident etc. That the war was really for oil and had been planned for years along with a pipeline isn't even considered a conspiracy theory now.

Bush has been likened to Hitler HOW MANY TIMES NOW?! Many of these aren't fringe Democrats I'm talking about and I think you know it.

I'm sure your dream forum here would be 20-30 Moderepublicrats debating something for a while then finally agreeing that gay marriage and abortion should be legal.

What you have in reality on TFL is a representation of American gun owners. We are the NRA See how many open-minded liberals you can gather who are truly pro-2nd Amend. and form your own organization! You can call it the Wild and Juan Like Guns Association, population 2

It wouldn't be like purging, it would be you splintering off. Sorry, many of us are "rural folk" and aren't ashamed of that like they are told to be by the media.

Who's to say who is wrong or right.
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:15 PM   #39
JuanCarlos
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"the open-minded left"
That certainly qualifies as the oxymoron of the day!
Yup. All of the bleeding heart liberals I know are impervious to reason. It's like trying to tell a 17th century Catholic priest about evolution, it's going against everything he's been taught since birth. Same with many in California.
Yeah, and the right is a bastion of open-mindedness and reason.

But you're right. They won't listen. So why bother? It's not as though I'm a die-hard (even "bleeding-heart") liberal brought up believing in gun control who now firmly supports the second amendment as well as gay marriage. Such things don't exist. Like unicorns.

Hear that? That's your right to keep and bear arms slowly fading away.

Quote:
You are just so.......so.......so........intolerant.
On the gay marriage one yes, yes he is. Higher taxes are debatable. Abortion is debatable (though honestly I prefer not to...I'm willing if ya'll are, though...put please, only in a new thread on that one, too). But gay marriage is a bunch of people who aren't hurting anybody looking for the equal right to enter into a contract and be legally recognized same as anybody else. There are few ways to slice it that don't violate either the first, the fourteenth, or both.

There's no rational or logical way to have it both ways; either the first combined with the fourteenth lets gays marry, or the second doesn't let you own assault weapons. Choose. But heck, let's start a new thread about it so this one doesn't get locked. We'll yell at each other for a while until they closer 'er down.
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:19 PM   #40
JuanCarlos
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I know for a fact that on many leftist forums conspiracy theories suggesting that Bush really blew up the towers, a variety of different scenarios for the Shotgun Cheney incident etc. That the war was really for oil and had been planned for years along with a pipeline isn't even considered a conspiracy theory now.

Bush has been likened to Hitler HOW MANY TIMES NOW?! Many of these aren't fringe Democrats I'm talking about and I think you know it.
Actually, on leftist forums (or at least moderate forums) those people are considered to be whackjobs, too. So basically what I'm saying is gun enthusiasts (or at least those represented to the public) are just the right-wing equivalent of those guys. Is that a good thing?

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What you have in reality on TFL is a representation of American gun owners. We are the NRA
See above, and wonder why your gun rights are going away.
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:21 PM   #41
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"either the first combined with the fourteenth lets gays marry...."
Please put a sock in it. You were partly responsible for contributing to the last thread being shut down when you climbed up on this soap box.
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:24 PM   #42
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"Honestly, so some extent I think firearms ownership is only being marginalized because a majority of firearms owners are unwilling to move forward with society..."

What, exactly, does it mean to "move forward with society"?

Tim
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:31 PM   #43
JuanCarlos
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Please put a sock in it. You were partly responsible for contributing to the last thread being shut down when you climbed up on this soap box.
See my link, sparkles. I provided another thread where the discussion can continue without dragging this one down. If it gets locked, it gets locked...but we certainly can't claim it's off topic now, can we.

Since you missed it the first time, here it is again.

Quote:
"Honestly, so some extent I think firearms ownership is only being marginalized because a majority of firearms owners are unwilling to move forward with society..."

What, exactly, does it mean to "move forward with society"?
Well, in the abstract "moving forward with society" often entails treating all human beings equally, using rational arguments rather than calls to tradition or religion (sometimes cloaked in "family values") to set policy, etc. In the past it has, as I said, meant everything from allowing women to vote to allowing black to not be property. Nowadays the big one seems to be gay rights (discuss there, please). It seems like today's firearms-enthusiast demographic is largely drawn from the same pool that resisted all the other previous steps (such as equal rights for blacks, women, etc). The issues change, but the intolerant attitudes don't.
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:35 PM   #44
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"Honestly, so some extent I think firearms ownership is only being marginalized because a majority of firearms owners are unwilling to move forward with society..."

What, exactly, does it mean to "move forward with society"?
What he is saying is that the average Christian Republican is a social and cultural neanderthal.

Quote:
So basically what I'm saying is gun enthusiasts (or at least those represented to the public) are just the right-wing equivalent of those guys. Is that a good thing?
You should put is in camps to help us concentrate on becoming more "modern". You're off your rocker. Who or what do you think the people on this forum are? This is an accurate representation of millions of people who aren't going to abandon their values because you say it will help us out publicity wise.

There is probably a lesson in the fact that the majority of pro-2nd Americans are "backwards" in your eyes and the eyes of the media. What that lesson is I don't know, and I don't want to think about it too long or I might get really depressed.
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:41 PM   #45
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"What he is saying is that the average Christian Republican is a social and cultural neanderthal."

Ah. Well, that's helpful, isn't it? Thanks for clearing that up.

Tim
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:48 PM   #46
Redworm
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What he is saying is that the average Christian Republican is a social and cultural neanderthal.
He may or may not be but I am. Yes, the average christian is back asswards in his ideas of social equality. Christians pretend they have a monopoly on the word "marriage" and that banning four letter words on broadcast television and radio for decency are perfectly acceptable incursions on the right to free speech.

You don't have to participate in my lifestyle, you don't even have to accept it. But you sure as hell have no business legislating what goes on in my bedroom, telling me that my partner and I can't raise a child because it doesn't conform to christian views - which are cleverly veiled as "traditional american family values - or that I can't serve my country in any less capacity than any straight man ever has.

I can respect christianity and most christians but I lose respect for the ones that feel their religion gives them the authority to dictate my lifestyle. It's funny that those same folk are the ones screaming how the muslims are trying to push their religion on us.
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:53 PM   #47
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I also find it interesting that a government run based on the views of religious fundamentalists and policies based on religious conservatism are a bad thing in Iraq or Iran, but somehow something worth preserving here.

And actually Redworm, I really was saying that. I was trying to be diplomatic about it, but really that's what it boils down to. Sorry, a majority of Christian Republicans are backwards bigots.

EDIT: If it's any consolation, you guys do seem to catch up eventually. I hear a majority of you have stopped using the N-word now. You'll get there eventually.
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:56 PM   #48
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Well, in the abstract "moving forward with society" often entails treating all human beings equally, using rational arguments rather than calls to tradition or religion (sometimes cloaked in "family values") to set policy, etc. In the past it has, as I said, meant everything from allowing women to vote to allowing black to not be property. Nowadays the big one seems to be gay rights (discuss there, please). It seems like today's firearms-enthusiast demographic is largely drawn from the same pool that resisted all the other previous steps (such as equal rights for blacks, women, etc). The issues change, but the intolerant attitudes don't.
Well said again.

WildimalmostreadyforatiradeAlaska
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Old March 14, 2007, 02:56 PM   #49
Redworm
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k I just didn't want to put words in your mouth

and I will stop that part of my discussion there since you made that other thread so if someone wants to reply to that post I made maybe the other thread would be a better place: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...26#post2290126
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Old March 14, 2007, 03:00 PM   #50
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Just incredible how some consider tolerance to be a one-way street.
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