Anti-gun does not = automatic Leftist.

[Love&Hate12]

I would just like to clear this up guys. I grow very tired of seeing so much slander from firearm owners labelling Sarah Brady a "Socialist", when it couldn't be anymore opposite, then Hillary Clinton, a center-rightist that just happens to carry ridiculous Policy a Communist or an extreme Leftist.

Positioning is not as important as Policy, you get just as bad anti-gun Policy from the far Right as you would the very far Left. The Democrats on the international spectrum would classify as "Center-Rightists" as a collective group, not "Leftists".

None of them advocate Socialism, if they did then I assure you they wouldn't be in the Democratic party. Some of them advocate Socialist style public services like Universal Healthcare and extensive Welfare programs and they generally don't favor Capital Punishment for whatever reason, but they still are pro-Capitalism across the board, just with a few more Social Programs.

Individual policy is the most important factor when voting for a Political Representative, Marko Kloos posted a great comment a few times when arguments about Dems and Reps were going on and that comment was "My gun rights are the only things that matters". I believe a lot of posters here really feel that way as well, we need to be attempting to look at a broad spectrum that includes all of the necessary rights, including our owning of Guns of course.

But please everyone, stop with throwing the words Socialist and Leftist around when they don't apply just because the person in question is not supportive of civilian arms ownership.

This is coming from a Leftist who happens to support gun rights, I wonder how that is?

[stanger04]

I agree 100%. I myself am more demo than rep. I just don't agree with the whole all demos hate guns truth is there are a lot of rep. that are against guns as well. Most politicians just end up on the ticket that gets them where they want to go.

[Tibu]

Oh my God... THANK YOU!

I was thinking about making a similar post like this this for some time. I consider myself to be more in line with the thinking of the Democratic Party. Note the way I stated that. That does not mean that I consider myself a "Democrat". To do so would imply that my opinions on political subjects are already predetermined from the get go. And that seems to be the problem nowadays. When an important legal or political issue comes up, I try to gather as much information as possible, examine it, internalize it, and then come to a conclusion. That is the way it should always be, instead of automatically assuming the "conservative" or the "liberal" point of view.

Hence why I am COMPLETELY pro gun rights/anti gun control. I gathered the information, studied it, and came to the conclusion based on the info and my personal beliefs that gun control just doesn't fly with me. And I truly believe that if the Democrats would just leave gun control and gay marriage alone, they would definitely win more elections.

So yes, I would be considered by the general conservative public: an "anti gun control liberal".

[Love&Hate12]

Tibu - Yes, taking it by issue to issue and using logic to solve it instead of bias polarization is the correct way to do it. It's pretty simple stuff when you get down to the core.

A while back someone posted a thread on here saying "Wow, a pro-Gun Democrat!" and it was talking about a candidate for a state senator and to my amusement, many seemed shocked that there was a such thing as a pro-gun Democrat....

The slandering really does indeed get old and especially when there is NO such thing as a relevant Leftist party in the USA, the ones that are true Leftist aren't even barely considered a "minor party".

I myself am a Leftist but I am willing to always see all sides of the spectrum to come to a conclusion about an issue, people are often suprised where they really stand on the spectrum in the end as well, mostly ones who haven't really looked into it however.

[sasquatch]

Love&Hate12

"you get just as bad anti-gun Policy from the far Right as you would the very far Left"

Every time that someone posts this kinda junk here, I get steamed. Sorry, but it's happening again.

Let's go. You post the name of a nationally-known politician (US Congress, mayor) from the right (aka Republican) who is anti-gun, and I will respond with two from the left side (aka Democrat) of the aisle. Links to their comments and records on the issue would be appreciated. NRA or GOA ratings on gun issues would be nice, too.

The last few who I challenged on this matter simply disappeared from sight with no response. I am really interested in seeing who you come up with.

Can you do it??

[Love&Hate12]

I'm not talking about American representatives on my comment about far left and far right, I am talking about idealogy and policy relating to those positions.

Again, the Democrats aren't Leftists, most fall slightly to the Right or in the Center and hold a Policy that you don't agree with.

[sasquatch]

Love&Hate12

Pretty much what I expected. Nice dodge !!!

[Love&Hate12]

Not a dodge, you missed the point of the whole thread.

[Redworm]

It's a lot easier to lump people in generalized categories than actually put forth the effort to consider their positions and opinions. Very sad.

[Fremmer]

The Democrats on the international spectrum would classify as "Center-Rightists" as a collective group, not "Leftists".

I don't understand what you mean by "the international spectrum." What about the present leaders of the Democratic party in Congress? You wouldn't consider Pelosi a leftist? What about Boxer, Kennedy, and/or Kerry?
Center-rightists?!?!

[badbob]

Again, the Democrats aren't Leftists, most fall slightly to the Right or in the Center and hold a Policy that you don't agree with.

Where, exactly, is the center? It appears to keep moving left.

badbob

[JuanCarlos]

Hence why I am COMPLETELY pro gun rights/anti gun control. I gathered the information, studied it, and came to the conclusion based on the info and my personal beliefs that gun control just doesn't fly with me. And I truly believe that if the Democrats would just leave gun control and gay marriage alone, they would definitely win more elections.

They could probably do it just by dropping gun control.

I'll just reiterate what has already been said:

anti-gun != leftist
leftist != anti-gun

The more we (by which I mean ya'll) marginalize ourselves, the more exclusive we are to those we perceive as different than us, the less people we bring to our cause. If we truly care about gun rights, we want to reach out to everybody we can. Wildalaska said it well in another thread:

2. Every gun owner should dedicate some time to the most effective means of stopping anti gun politics by things such as "take a liberal to shoot day", take a media member to shoot day, outreach to the gay, latino, transgendered and immigrant communities and most importantly, stop the silly frothing at the mouth tirades....gun owners must TURN MAINSTREAM, or at least, we must police our own ranks to remove the screechers and that haters so that the general public realizes that a gun is just a tool, not the penis extension of the angry white male.

The more closely gun-rights activists allow themselves to be perceived as coming from the fringes of right-wing extremism, the easier it will be to marginalize and demonize them. Because I've got a couple newsflashes for most people here: one, "people who want to own 'assault weapons'" are a pretty small minority...not that much larger in the grand scheme than, say, homosexuals. Two, the actual text of the second amendment doesn't spell out any such right...not unless you've got some sort of Teacher's Edition I've not seen that defines "arms," "bear," and "infringe."

Put another way, I probably lean farther left than pretty much anybody here. Were I not already a strong supporter of the RKBA, not only would much of what I've seen here not do much to convince me...but it would quite honestly be more likely to push me in the other direction.

Let's go. You post the name of a nationally-known politician (US Congress, mayor) from the right (aka Republican) who is anti-gun, and I will respond with two from the left side (aka Democrat) of the aisle. Links to their comments and records on the issue would be appreciated. NRA or GOA ratings on gun issues would be nice, too.

I have no doubt you could deliver two for one, probably even three for one. But if I can find even a single Republican who is more strongly anti-gun than even a single Democrat, then the whole "blindly vote Republican" argument suddenly falls apart.

Also, if a majority of gunowners (especially "enthusiasts" who want more than a simple pistol for home defense or hunting rifle/shotgun) weren't the kind of people who at best make no effort to include other minorities and at worst actively work to exclude them then it might be more difficult for the Democratic party to stand by their stance on gun control. They're picking up the minorities we're shunning...and we're making it really easy for them all to unite against us.

[sasquatch]

Love&Hate12

Not a dodge, you missed the point of the whole thread

No, I did not miss anything.

In this country, the terms "left" and "right" are commonly used to describe the general leanings of politicians. Not perfect, granted, but commonly used and commonly understood by most people.

Your dancing and bobbing and weaving and babbling about "not talking about American representatives" is meaningless to me. I don't give a rat's patoot about "representatives" in other countries and their "idealogy and policy" relating to gun issues. Second Amendment issues in this country I do care about.

[sasquatch]

JuanCarlos

"The more closely gun-rights activists allow themselves to be perceived as coming from the fringes of right-wing extremism, the easier it will be to marginalize and demonize them."

You just gotta be a shill for The Washington Post or The New York Times.

[JuanCarlos]

Where, exactly, is the center? It appears to keep moving left.

badbob

I suppose it has at that. Going back aways, it was alright to exclude people from a decent education based on color of skin. Little further, to exclude people from voting based on gender. Further still, you could own other people whether they liked it or not. Farther than that, you could be set ablaze for failing to follow the right religion.

The center has been moving left for a very long time, and much of that movement has been for the better. Honestly, so some extent I think firearms ownership is only being marginalized because a majority of firearms owners are unwilling to move forward with society, and they (and unfortunately their guns) are finally being left behind. Kinda sucks, too, because all us leftist gunowners get screwed in the deal too. We'd try to convince all our leftist friends, but we just can't shout as loudly as the extremists on the right.

[JuanCarlos]

You just gotta be a shill for The Washington Post or The New York Times.

Are you trying to prove my point?

[sasquatch]

JuanCarlos

I'll try to make it simple. Just who is it that "marginalizes" and "demonizes" gun owners and categorizes them as "right-wing extremists"? Would it be fair to say that comes from the media?

[Wildalaska]

Funny thing, many of my political positions match that of looney leftists, what does that make me

WildowhatamiAlaska

[sasquatch]

Confused ???

[sasquatch]

Wishy-washy ???

[sasquatch]

Just kidding, Wild. You appear to be the of the more sane and level-headed contributors on these threads. I always enjoy reading your stuff.

[Redworm]

I'll try to make it simple. Just who is it that "marginalizes" gun owners and categorizes them as "right-wing extremists"? Would it be fair to say that comes from the media?

You're forgetting the more important question of why it happens. It's not like the media is simply making these things up or are being controlled by some secret cabal of gun haters. Anyone who believes this is the case is just another example of the paranoid conspiracy theoriest that is giving the rest of us gun owners a bad name.

Besides, with the growing popularity of talk radio, Fox News and the internet it's getting really lame to point the finger at the "socialist liberal media rawr!".


edit: I made a thread a while ago about the extreme right wing gun owners demanding the leftist gun owners compromise their values to fight against gun control...yet refusing to do the same.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235160

[sasquatch]

Redworm

"It's not like the media is simply making these things up or are being controlled by some secret cabal of gun haters. Anyone who believes this is the case is just another example of the paranoid conspiracy theoriest that is giving the rest of us gun owners a bad name."

The New York Times and The Washington Post are on record as being opposed to private ownership of ANY firearms. I certainly hope that this isn't new to you.

[Redworm]

The New York Times and The Washington Post are on record as being opposed to private ownership of ANY firearms. I certainly hope that this isn't new to you.

And? So they're not allowed to hold a certain opinion? Once again we seem to be ignoring the questions of why they feel this way and have this opinion of gun owners as right wing extremists. It's not just being pulled out of thin air.

[JuanCarlos]

I'll try to make it simple. Just who is it that "marginalizes" and "demonizes" gun owners and categorizes them as "right-wing extremists"? Would it be fair to say that comes from the media?

The media may report it, but gunowners as a whole categorize themselves as right-wing extremists. See, for instance, any thread here on topics such as immigration or gay marriage.

We fail horribly at policing our own, and at reaching out to people/groups who we may not like but who might happen to share our opinion on gun control. We have made it easy to portray gun control as a left/right issue, when really supporters could be found across the political spectrum.