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Old May 6, 2007, 12:28 AM   #51
Rich Lucibella
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I think SWAT will not provide a venue for Zumbo; he has made his living on writing for hunting books. Our writers would starve if they depended on us for a REAL wage.

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Unknown. That's his call. I won't put words in his mouth on the subject.
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Old May 6, 2007, 09:24 AM   #52
12-34hom
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Zumbo is not a "gun guy". Rich, does this surprise you?

In an email from Jim this morning he described the class as, "one of the most incredible events of my life."

Compared to: seeing your baby the first time or any other "life altering" event, i find this statement somewhat self serving on Mr. Zumbros part.

More banter, rhetoric.

Nothing here to see, move along.

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Old May 6, 2007, 05:36 PM   #53
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As the guy who conducted the training.....

Most people have stronger feelings about the most recent event then of things past.
This can be for many reasons, and cover many bases. However, it is personal, and based on one individuals frame of reference.

Re "gun guy".
So he is not a gun guy. So what? I am not a gun guy either. They are the tools of my trade, and have been for many years. For that reason, i keep current on those things that affect me and those i work with.
If you were to question me about big game rifles, trap/ skeet shotguns, esoteric French revolvers of the 1800's or a myriad of other guns that have no relevance to what i do, i would be accused of not being a gun guy either.
Not sure of your point here...

We are all entitled to our opinions- to include Jim Zumbo. What he said caused harm to all gun owners, no doubt.
However, he is still a highly respected man in many circles, and we would be foolish to continue to mutilate his professional corpse when it would better serve us- all of us- to have him educated and an ally against the real enemy.
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Old May 7, 2007, 09:47 AM   #54
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I think as a human being that redemption is a chance all should be given. As a psychologist, I think behaviors and beliefs can be changed sometimes by new experiences and rational presentations of the evidence.

I used to think, not coming from a gun culture, that gun folks were a touch out of whack. Maybe some still are but after examining the principles involved, I changed my view on gun ownership.

If Mr. Zumbo has new experiences and thinks this out, he can change his views.

It's really very simple from a human or a professional viewpoint, for me. There is too much absolutism for some 'gun' folk. Doesn't do your psyche any good.
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Old May 9, 2007, 03:53 PM   #55
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I think it is just sad that a person who is involved with writing about the use of firearms for hunting is THAT IGNORANT about popular guns such as AR15s and hasn't even been around them or people who have them.

PLUS, I don't own, have used, nor have ever seen many firearms that are out there, but I would never make an anti-gun remark such as calling an owner of a certain type of firearm a "terrorist"

Even if you may not personally like a certain firearm for a specific use, such as an AR15 for hunting, there is no reason to make negative and insulting remarks about the person who does and that what Zumbo did and doesn't deserve such easy forgiveness for saying what he did.

If you want to take the time to re-educate Zumbo, go ahead, but he sure doesn't deserve making a living out of it.
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Old May 9, 2007, 05:25 PM   #56
Pat Rogers
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Good Evening Dust Devil,
Did you read what Zumbo originally wrote? Can you advise where he called you/ me / others a terrorist because you/ me/ others own an AR?
He stated that the weapon was used by terrorists (true enough, but also by the good guys).

This is not a perfect world, and while you hold yourself to that standard we need to get real.
I am not a hunter, and know little/ nothing about hunting weapons.
Truthfully, i am not a gun guy, but as they are the tools of my trade, i attempt to be well versed in those that i use/ used against me etc.
I have no need to know about a Fortortna 2000 Sabot launching whiz bang used for killing medium to large sized game.
Does that make me ignorant- or maybe something else?
People on certain forums make ignorant and insulting remarks about others all day long (hey, you just did that very thing... )
Peruse this and other forums and of three that i looked at in the past 15 minutes, i found almost one hundred disparaging remarks about guns and people.
Amazing....

Zumbo made a mistake, as have millions of priests, rabbi's, politicians, doctors, lawyers and kidlets.
It happens.
No one is more aware of it more than he.
That he recognizes it as a mistake is a very good thing.
He is not the enemy. There are others that wear that hat.

It may be time to harness some energy and direct it where it may do some good.

Lastly Mr Devil, and realizing that you are shooting from the lip- can you explain this??
"If you want to take the time to re-educate Zumbo, go ahead, but he sure doesn't deserve making a living out of it."

I took the time to help us- all of us- get some good out of something bad.
Can you explain how you feel this is making a living for him?
What do you know about this that i don't....?
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Old May 9, 2007, 07:40 PM   #57
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I agree. The man is truly repentant (penitant?), and deserves our whole-hearted support now, IMO. He can be an asset if he takes his enthusiasm, knowledge, and inertia from decades of followers/listeners and proselytizes the RKBA gospel a bit (mixed in with hunting). Time to forgive and forget - even more than that, actually help him with a hand up. I'll be getting this upcoming issue for certain at the newsstand.
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Old May 10, 2007, 06:28 AM   #58
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[B]Sometimes the ability to read and comprehend reduces the need to make keystrokes on a computer...

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I think SWAT will not provide a venue for Zumbo; he has made his living on writing for hunting books. Our writers would starve if they depended on us for a REAL wage.

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Unknown. That's his call. I won't put words in his mouth on the subject.
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Old May 10, 2007, 10:30 PM   #59
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This was all totally predictable, and I mean ALL.
The "Praise the Lord I have seen the light!!!!!" epiphany, the minor revival of Internet interest in Zumbo and the subject, The Article, the We Forgive Him/We Forgive Him Not, and so on.
Still pretty much of a yawner. He did what he did, and the world moves on. Again- I don't want blood from Zumbo, I just don't see his relevance anymore & have no interest in a predictable "How Could I Have Been So Wrong?" piece.
Just my opinion.
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Old May 11, 2007, 05:41 AM   #60
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Dpris- let me float another scenario....
Zumbo makes stupid remarks.
he is called to task for it and fired from everything he holds dear>.
True so far...
He continues to have his mutilated corpse dragged through the ether.
Initially he is hurt.
Then in denial.
Then he receives an offer from an anti gun group offering him a job as a consultant at $70k/ year. to talk about the evils of the black rifle.
He is upset and angry at the public whipping (deserved and otherwise) and accepts.
Zumbo is now a poster boy for every anti gun group in the country.

All fiction of course, but it could have happened, and one doesn't have to be a soothsayer to have predicted that.

Would it be better to have Jim Zumbo educated, see that those who own/ shoot black rifles are not really bad guys but Americans who believe strongly in their righ to keep and bear arms?
Would it be better for those who strongly support Jim Zumbo (and there are many- more than you would believe- who would see what he has to say and understand that there is a bigger fight out there then between followers of one hobby/ sport/ vocation/ MOS/ whatever and another.

This seems pretty clear to me.

One word of advice to you though. You need to catch up on your sleep. When people reduce the physical act of yawning to keystrokes, it means that they have serious sleep deprivation issues...
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Old May 11, 2007, 07:02 PM   #61
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Pat,
Zumbo can go in a number of directions if he wants to, and like I said- I don't want blood, nor do I particularly care if he hires out as a paid "name" for the Brady Bunch. He's written his page in history, they'll accuse him of caving in to pressure & recanting on the AR15 issue if he doesn't go with them, and we'll accuse him of selling his soul out (on top of making some of the most ill-advised statements a pro-gun advocate could possibly have made) if he does go with them. Either way, his credibility is very shaky, and either way I don't see him as much of an influence any longer no matter which direction he goes.
The religious conversion and subsequent article/s are a predictable scenario, and no longer an interesting subject, for me. Next in line, after you (and I'm not in any way knocking your training or the course you put him through), will be the "Me & Ted's Most Excellent AR15 Hunting Adventure", and that'll be another yawner.
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Old May 12, 2007, 08:02 AM   #62
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We all make mistakes and put our britches on one leg at a time. If a fellow is willing to make amends for a mistake and go the extra mile to see why it was a mistake it would go against the grain to not forgive him if he is sincere.
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Old May 12, 2007, 11:36 AM   #63
DPris
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In my case, it's not a matter of forgiveness or not, just a matter of old news, don't care.
I think he was dead wrong, but I have to agree with the Bradys on one
thing- anything he does now in regard to "legitimizing" ARs & AKs happens purely, and entirely, because of the immense response his blog entry generated, and the pressure from it.
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Old May 12, 2007, 03:00 PM   #64
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Quote:
Good Evening Dust Devil,
Did you read what Zumbo originally wrote? Can you advise where he called you/ me / others a terrorist because you/ me/ others own an AR?
He stated that the weapon was used by terrorists (true enough, but also by the good guys).

This is not a perfect world, and while you hold yourself to that standard we need to get real.
I am not a hunter, and know little/ nothing about hunting weapons.
Truthfully, i am not a gun guy, but as they are the tools of my trade, i attempt to be well versed in those that i use/ used against me etc.
I have no need to know about a Fortortna 2000 Sabot launching whiz bang used for killing medium to large sized game.
Does that make me ignorant- or maybe something else?
People on certain forums make ignorant and insulting remarks about others all day long (hey, you just did that very thing... )
Peruse this and other forums and of three that i looked at in the past 15 minutes, i found almost one hundred disparaging remarks about guns and people.
Amazing....

Zumbo made a mistake, as have millions of priests, rabbi's, politicians, doctors, lawyers and kidlets.
It happens.
No one is more aware of it more than he.
That he recognizes it as a mistake is a very good thing.
He is not the enemy. There are others that wear that hat.

It may be time to harness some energy and direct it where it may do some good.

Lastly Mr Devil, and realizing that you are shooting from the lip- can you explain this??
"If you want to take the time to re-educate Zumbo, go ahead, but he sure doesn't deserve making a living out of it."

I took the time to help us- all of us- get some good out of something bad.
Can you explain how you feel this is making a living for him?
What do you know about this that i don't....?



"I call them “assault” rifles, which may upset some people. Excuse me, maybe I’m a traditionalist, but I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity. I’ll go so far as to call them “terrorist” rifles. They tell me that some companies are producing assault rifles that are “tackdrivers.”

Now tell me where anything in that quote by Jim Zumbo isn't something that a anti-gunner would say or a person who thinks only certain guns should be owned by certain people. Surely someone who shouldn't be a representative of the firearm culture in any manner.

If Hillary Clinton said the same thing about AR15s, which she has in different ways, then don't tell me you wouldn't be ranting about Hillary like all other gun owners. If Zumbo was an unknown person posting on a gun board like this and said what he said, then everyone would be all over him. So don't do him any favors just because he is a known hunter and author.


So, just because he is a white-haired, old man who likes to hunt and talk about guns, doesn't mean he is capable of representing our modern gun owner society through the internet or other media and deserving being endorsed by so many companies who expect him to draw people into the world of firearms, not drive them away by identifying an AR15 as an "assault rifle" and "terrorist rifles".
The only thing Zumbo missed to say was that AR15s should only be used by law enforcement and the military.




To quote AGAIN, "I call them “assault” rifles, which may upset some people."
HE KNEW what he was saying. HE KNEW. It wasn't an accidental use of language or a slip of the tongue. He just thought that more people would agree with him and was WRONG. Zumbo, just like his ignorance about AR15s, is also ignorant about the gun owning society and didn't think that there were that many pro-AR15 rifles owners out there who would bother responding to his blog.
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Old May 12, 2007, 05:33 PM   #65
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I suppose no one of those who won't give this dude a chance have ever made a mistake? Then wanted a chance.

Makes me :barf:
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Old May 12, 2007, 06:11 PM   #66
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Glad to see this is coming out soon. It'll be the first SWAT issue I've ever purchased.

I thought the original controversy was grossly overblown, but on the bright side we get an article on training from a different perspective.

An entire series of articles detailing novice civilian experiences at tactical pistol/carbine and long-range rifle classes would, themselves, be quite valuable. (if not in SWAT, given it's demographics, then another magazine)

(I don't know why anyone would be surprised that Zumbo wasn't as up on modern guns as he could be. He was writing for an outdoor magazine - I'd no more expect him to know a Nighthawk from a Les Baer than I would expect Massad Ayoob to know the best way to skin a dead elk or whatever.)
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Old May 12, 2007, 07:01 PM   #67
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What exactly is a gun person? If a person is a gun owner that ought to be all it takes. I imagine there are plenty of folks who only own one handgun for self defense or a rifle and shotgun for hunting. Does that meant they do not qualify to be with the elite gun guys? If Zumbo as a gun owner is big enough to admit he made a mistake other folks ought to be big enough to forgive him.
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Old May 13, 2007, 07:58 AM   #68
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Wait, are we seriously going to turn this excellent thread into a debate over whether Zumbo made anti-gun statements in his blog? It's been covered. He did. Pat questioned one small part of that. Personally, I took his comments as meaning that I should not own or shoot an AR-15 or an AK-47 pattern because, since they're "terrorist rifles," using them at least associates me with terrorists if not making me one.

But that's been done. It's over. This thread is about Zumbo stretching out of his comfort zone and taking a carbine course from Pat Rogers. It's a 180-degree turn. What did we want from Zumbo, exactly? Is there ANYTHING this guy can do to rejoin our ranks, or would we rather he be just another anti-gunner?
Really, if this isn't a good step for Zumbo, what is?

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Old May 13, 2007, 08:45 AM   #69
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Well said, Don.

You know, the guy still has a fairly large following of folks who are going to listen to what he says, no matter what. And they are going to echo his opinions on a lot of things.

We've taken a signficant part of his livelihood away (that was within our power as consumers). But it is not within our power to force his followers not to listen to him. He still has a bully pulpit and always will.

Lots of folks seem to be wondering whether he "really" means it when he says he is now pro-RKBA and no longer anti-"assault rifle." But as long as he's speaking for us and not against us, why should we care what his motives are?

The practical issue is whether he is using his bully pulpit for the RKBA, and not against it. And it sure appears he is doing that.

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Old May 15, 2007, 05:40 PM   #70
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Dust Devil,

I think it is clear that Zumbo did make anti-gun statements for which he suffered, reconsidered, recanted, and was brought back into the fold of second ammendment supporters. As Pat clearly laid out, it was better to have him on our side with renewed views than to become a voice for antigunners. In the words of the late LBJ, who was nothing if not pragmatic: "I'd rather have him inside the tent ******* out than outside the tent ******* in."

There are different type of gun owners who own different types of guns for different reasons. An antigun Zumbo could have had a lot of sway with people who own guns soley for hunting and convinced them that it was a good idea to support measures against firearms not classified hunting.

Instead we have this, which is diametricly opposed to what he previously said:

Quote:
JIM ZUMBO
PO Box 2390
Cody, WY 82414

March 28, 2007
An Open Letter to the
United States Senate

Dear Honorable Ladies and Gentlemen:

It recently came to my attention that one of your colleagues, Michigan Sen. Carl Levin, has chosen to attack firearms owners using remarks I wrote in mid-February as his launch pad. As you probably know, Sen. Levin has been making anti-gun speeches every week for the past eight years because of a promise he made to the Economic Club of Detroit in May 1999.

Mr. Levin has an agenda, and he should have spoken to me before using my name in one of his speeches, especially since his remarks were entered into the Congressional Record. I would like my remarks here entered into the Congressional Record as well.

Sen. Levin is only one of 16 members of the Senate to vote against the Vitter Amendment to the Department of Homeland Security Appropriations Act. This amendment prohibits the confiscation of a privately-owned firearm during an emergency or major disaster when possession of that gun is not prohibited under state or federal law.

Eighty-four senators voted for that amendment, inspired by the egregious confiscation of firearms from the citizens of New Orleans following Hurricane Katrina in the summer of 2005. Those seizures, you will recall, led the Second Amendment Foundation and National Rifle Association to join in a landmark civil rights lawsuit in federal court that brought the confiscations to an abrupt end.

The taking of private property without warrant or probable cause – even firearms – was considered an outrage by millions of American citizens, and yet Sen. Levin joined 15 of his colleagues in voting against this measure. It is no small wonder that Sen. Levin gets an “F” rating from gun rights organizations. He would have American citizens disarmed and left defenseless at a time when they need their firearms the most, when social order collapses into anarchy and protecting one’s self and one’s family is not simply a right and responsibility, it becomes a necessity.

That in mind, Sen. Levin must know that almost immediately after I wrote those remarks, I recanted and apologized to the millions of Americans who lawfully and responsibly own, compete with and hunt with semi-automatic rifles. I took a “crash course” on these firearms and visited with my good friend Ted Nugent on his ranch in Texas, where I personally shot an AR-15 and educated myself with these firearms.

Some of us learn from our mistakes, others keep making them. Legislation to which Sen. Levin alluded, HR 1022, would renew the ban on so-called “assault weapons,” and dangerously expand it to encompass far more perfectly legal firearms. For the Congress of the United States to even consider such legislation is an affront to every law-abiding firearms owner in this country.

This legislation that Sen. Levin appears to endorse is written so broadly as outlaw not only firearms, but accessories, including a folding stock for a Ruger rifle. As I understand the language of this bill, it could ultimately take away my timeworn and cherished hunting rifles and shotguns – firearms I hope to one day pass on to my grandchildren – as well as millions of identical and similar firearms owned by other American citizens.

It is clear to me that the supporters of this legislation don’t want to stop criminals. They want to invent new ones out of people like me, and many of you, and your constituents, friends, neighbors and members of your families. They will do anything they can, go to any extremes they believe necessary, to make it impossible for more and more American citizens to legally own any firearm.

In his final paragraph, Senator Levin misrepresents what I said. I never spoke in favor of a general assault weapons ban. Again, I immediately apologized for my blog statement that was exclusively directed toward hunting and not gun ownership.

I will not allow my name to be associated with this kind of attack on the Second Amendment rights of my fellow citizens.

A few weeks ago, in a letter to Alan Gottlieb, chairman of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, I promised to educate my fellow hunters about this insidious legislation “even if I have to visit every hunting camp and climb into every duck blind and deer stand in this country to get it done.”

I will amend that to add that I will bring my effort to Capitol Hill if necessary, even if I have to knock on every door and camp in every office of the United States Senate. In promoting this ban, the Hon. Carl Levin does not speak for me, or anybody I know.

Sincerely,
James Zumbo
Cody, Wyoming

http://nugeboard.tednugent.com/ubb/F...ML/292418.html
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Old May 15, 2007, 06:37 PM   #71
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Jim Zumbo has paid for what he said.... What a laugh, no matter how many appologies he makes the simple fact of the matter is, the dammage is done. I don't believe he is sorry, and will accept no excuse for his ignorance. I think He said exactly what he believes, he thought he could get away with it, and I don't think the "leave no man behind" was intended for traitors. If S.W.A.T. decides to do a article with him I will not be buying it (no disrespect to you Denny). I refuse to continue to support someone that has declared me a terrorist. Ted Nuggent your history too. If I came on this forum and made those comments I wonder if you would be so quick to forgive me, I doubt it. Yea he's got a large following of fans, but they all want him tarred and feathered. If you see him be sure and let him know how much I enjoyed shooting his videos with my bushmaster.
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Old May 16, 2007, 09:27 PM   #72
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Both sides have a point. If Zumbo had posted his blog and not much had happened, I don't think Zumbo would have given Pat's and Denny's offers a second thought. There was no percentage in it for him, and wouldn't have been something he was interested in. As he said in one of his many apologies, he wrote what he wrote and he meant it. Why get involved with terrorist rifles?

Instead, Zumbo got hammered and was in a position where he had every reason to accept the offer to be trained with a rifle that he previously had no interest in owning and didn't really see the point in, one he thought every hunter should disavow in order to protect the sport.

Like many, I don't trust Zumbo's epiphany. Really, there's not much reason to, as he's only just now starting to earn gunowners' trust. His apologies are inconsistent with each other (has he ever explained why Remington's CEO says Zumbo was warned about this blog topic before he posted it?), and track the loss of his sponsors. He's also apparently rebutted the use of his blog one time, and not Maryland where it's still on the record as evidence for banning assault weapons. But the weird thing about even false epiphanies is that when you start spouting the "right" lines, you start believing it.

As it is, this situation could have gone multiple ways. Zumbo could have gotten off scotfree and continued doing damage. He could have become the Brady Bunch's pet and either hurt our cause (leading hunters against us) or helped us (spouting his "pro-hunting only" BS while his cohorts worked to ban sniper rifles like scoped hunting rifles, thus exposing himself and them as liars to the hunters). Or, he could be converted (even forcefully) to our side and start fighting with the vigor of a convert for us.

As it is, we are now in the last situation, he's a convert and is fighting for us in one way or another. There are a lot of people to thank, ranging from the people who pushed him out to the people like Pat, Denny, and Rich who are bringing him back.

So, how about we stop worrying about what Zumbo wrote, and focus on what he writes?

Last edited by buzz_knox; May 16, 2007 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Left out someone important.
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Old May 17, 2007, 09:29 AM   #73
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pax

Quote:
You know, the guy still has a fairly large following of folks who are going to listen to what he says, no matter what. And they are going to echo his opinions on a lot of things.

We've taken a signficant part of his livelihood away (that was within our power as consumers). But it is not within our power to force his followers not to listen to him. He still has a bully pulpit and always will.

Lots of folks seem to be wondering whether he "really" means it when he says he is now pro-RKBA and no longer anti-"assault rifle." But as long as he's speaking for us and not against us, why should we care what his motives are?

The practical issue is whether he is using his bully pulpit for the RKBA, and not against it. And it sure appears he is doing that
Exactly! We have a vested interest in HELPING him regain clout, if he is TRULY educated, as he now seems to be. So far from being a 'yawner' in my view.

Quote:
I think He said exactly what he believes
Right. As he believed THEN. Now==> Different. Following the concept? You've never had a true change of heart on ANY subject after being educated and having an "a-ha" moment?
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Old May 17, 2007, 10:44 AM   #74
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For me, aside from his questionable turnabout and subsequent predictable damage control, I suppose part of the deal is that I never read a word of what Zumbo wrote before his blog fiasco. We don't get his books, we don't read Outdoor Life, and the only place I've ever seen part of one of his TV shows was in a hotel in Vegas. Given a total lack of interest in him before the debacle, and a great deal of skepticism regarding his religious conversion, I'm not breathlessly awaiting further writings from him on the AR15 when I already know what the conciliatory gist of them will be.
As you can see, he continues to polarize the shooting community (demonstrated in microcosm here), and it might be best if he just quietly went elsewhere.
Denis
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Old May 17, 2007, 11:16 AM   #75
Denny Hansen
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Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,363
The “polarizing of the community” is now being done more by folks who refuse to accept the fact that Zumbo made a mistake, apologized for it, and is now a spokesman for RKBA.

People go where they are wanted; simple human nature. I, for one, would rather have Zumbo in our camp than Brady’s.

Denny
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