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Old February 27, 2007, 09:42 AM   #26
Trip20
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Great job.

With all of the unflattering Jumbo threads festering, this thread could use a little more exposure in my opinion.

It's kind of hidden here in the SWAT forum.
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Old March 3, 2007, 01:21 AM   #27
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Zumbo and the Motor City Madman, together, on TV, onNugent's home turf? This ought to be good...
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Old March 3, 2007, 01:57 AM   #28
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Zumbo's second apology, unlike his first, seems heartfelt and humble. Personally I'm ready to forgive and move on...
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Old March 4, 2007, 12:24 PM   #29
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I think it's a fantastic idea. The best I've seen offered since this whole thing started.

Much applause.....
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Old March 4, 2007, 08:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Mr. Zumbo repeatedly said how he had seen the light that ARs can be legitimate hunting rifles. The Second Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with wacking Bambi. I truly don't think he gets the point.
I agree. While I agree that Mr. Zumbo's second apology was much better than his first. I am still not sure, based upon either apology, that he ever got the point.

I do hope this works out for the best for all involved and maybe Mr. Zumbo can learn what his mistake truly was. I am just skeptical that the change will occur in a carbine class.

Good luck.
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Old March 9, 2007, 10:45 PM   #31
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As I think this thing through I can see that Denny is a pretty smart person.

More controversy=more readers=more advertisers=more $$$$. For example: Claire Wolfe's "drug debate", 9mm vs 45 articles and now Zumbo.
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Old March 9, 2007, 11:18 PM   #32
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Uh, no.

This is pure and simple an effort to educate a fellow shooter about so-called "assault rifle" and have him spread the word; no more, no less.

The "drug debate" between Claire Wolfe and Jeff Randall was requested by readers and we delivered.

Also, in the 20 years I've been with S.W.A.T. Magazine, I have never run a 9mm vs. 45 article. You must be thinking of another publication.

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Old March 10, 2007, 09:53 AM   #33
pipoman
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I just found this thread. I saw your offer and Zumbo's acceptance on Nuge right after you posted it. I thought at the time that this was a brilliant move on your part...good job Denny and ebd10. Maybe an ad for SWAT in Outdoor Life with a pic of Zumbo would be a winner.

Again good job guys.
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Old March 10, 2007, 12:10 PM   #34
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I'm obviously in the minority, and while not disparaging the reasoning behind the idea, Zumbo at this point going through a carbine school & writing up his impressions is a complete yawner to me.
It won't have any beneficial effect on the anti-gunners, who'll merely claim anything he now does is just a cave-in to pressure, I don't believe it'll convince any of the hunting crowd that the black guns are OK today because "If Jim Zumbo says so, then by golly it must be true", and I couldn't care less about his brand new & shiny (emphasis on shiny) religious conversion.
No bitterness there over what he did, just a belief that nothing he does now will make any real difference in the overall picture.
The Brady Bunch already has their quotes from him to use for maximum mileage, no amount of AR15 hunting trips with Nugent, or anybody else, will undo that. He may gain some forgiveness from AR owners in actually touching one of the evil guns on a hunt, and he may get an eye-opener regarding their capabilities for defensive use, but in the final analysis it does all boil down to being just a response to pressure, and even if he does grudgingly admit that the guns do maybe have some small degree of hunting utility, he's still viewing their validity through the filter of HUNTING. I could be wrong, but I don't see that putting him through a class will do much more than allow him to see how efficient the gun is in non-hunting scenarios, and I seriously doubt that will change his attitude about the "terrorist guns". Showing him, essentially, how efficiently it can kill people (whether in justifiable circumstances or not) is unlikely, in my opinion, to make them any more acceptable in his eyes when he already obviously views them as only suitable for terrorists and only appropriate for killing people.
His mentality, clearly demonstrated, is that he has no use for a defensive rifle, and even if he admits the AR can be hunted with, he still doesn't see ownership for either recreational or legitimate self-protection as acceptable. I'm not convinced that teaching him how well ARs work in those roles will alter his viewpoint on them.
He also has yet to apologize (as far as anything I've seen, anyway) for his comments labeling the guns as terrorist weapons, and by extension, owners of them as terrorists.
I see people on various gun forums saying that, "Golly, if he goes hunting with the Nuge, it's all better again", and I don't mean to be offensive in saying this- but, no, it's not all better again. It really changes nothing significantly.
I'm not among those who demand blood from Zumbo, but I'm also not among those who feel that he has any real relevance anymore.
Denis
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Old March 10, 2007, 01:05 PM   #35
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Denis, I think you're being overly pessimistic.

Yes, the damage is done. But the damage may be mitigated. How much so, depends upon Zumbo himself.

Does Zumbo understand the reach of the Second Amendment? Does he understand that Hunting is not protected by that amendment or any other specific federal law? Does he understand that if the antis can ban one set of firearms, based purely on the cosmetics of those firearms, they can ban them all? Corollary: Does he understand that hunting rifles in particular are nothing more than sniper-rifles?

If he now understands these things, he can mitigate the damage, even while admitting his understanding came from being under intense pressure. That is undeniably part of human nature and cannot be minimized by the antis... Not without them losing their credibility to the common masses.

Consider: Sarah Brady had her epiphany while under intense life-changing pressure. Is she now going to say that Zumbo cannot have the same epiphany, under his intense life-changing pressure?
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Old March 10, 2007, 01:30 PM   #36
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Denis, I think the statement made on Nuge was more heartfelt than his original statement. It is too bad this wasn't his first statement. I do believe he was totally blindsided by the reaction to his post. I think part of what surprised him is the fact he has a blog that he knew was viewed by numbers in the hundreds but suddenly there are tens of thousands of people reading and screaming about his post. His original statement was issued within 24 or 48 hours of the original post. He had been in a certain position of relative obscurity until all of this. His name has never been a household word, I would bet at least 1/2 (probably more) members right here on TFL had no idea who he was prior to this. Believe me he gets it, if you don't think so go over and read the 60 pages of posts at the link provided above. Zumbo may be a lot of things but he isn't illiterate or mentally slow which are the only afflictions which would allow him not to get the picture after reading those posts (and he HAS read the posts).

While the antis will use anything and everything to promote their cause they really get very few converts, they mostly preach to the choir. The real benefit coming from this whole thing will be heightened awareness by all of those hunters who have long felt the same way Zumbo felt. A certain portion of those people will try shooting and/or hunting with black rifles because of this. Many will at least consider that the sport shooters and black rifle guys are on the same side as they are.

Bottom line this is a GREAT thing for SWAT. It certainly can't hurt the black rifle crowd. I would bet the numbers of black rifles sold since this and because of this will make up for any damage done. Heck I have even considered buying one, a thought which has never crossed my mind before.
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Old March 10, 2007, 01:46 PM   #37
DPris
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Ant,
You may very well be right, and I may very well be wrong.
Ask my first two wives- I was ALWAYS wrong with them.
But, them's my feelings.
At this point, I don't see how anything Zumbo does will have any great impact anywhere, mitigationally or otherwise.
There'll be another minor flutter on the Internet when he does his much-ballyhoo'd "Me, The Nuge & The AR15" hunt, there'll be a couple "Praise The Lord, I Have Seen The Light!" articles, a few tolerant souls will forgive him because he knew not what he did (& Ted says Zumbo's really an OK kinda guy), and then we'll be left with the same aftermath of his remarks- Bradys quoting him for years, too late in life to re-kindle his career & re-establish his credibility, another brick in the wall between hunters & shooters, and so on.
The only good thing (albeit at the cost of his career) that will really come out of all this is that it showed the firearms & accessory industry quite clearly that hunters are not the only market for their wares, or even necessarily the largest market. Shooters, with AR owners buying huge numbers of tickets, are driving the bus, and the industry had better realize it. Zumbo demonstrated that in spectacular fashion, along with the power of the Internet.
Wait & see, I suppose.
Denis

Last edited by DPris; March 11, 2007 at 01:07 AM. Reason: Edited For Spelling.
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Old March 10, 2007, 02:07 PM   #38
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Pip,
Yup, it will also generate some AR sales. Enough to make any significant impact on the market? Dunno. Significant numbers of converts? Dunno, but I really doubt it. Again- could be wrong.
Unfortunately, just as in "our side", where there will be a certain number of previously undecided people motivated to decide the Black Guns may not be so evil after all, there will also be previously undecided people on "their side" (or previously neutral) who (whether they knew who Zumbo was before or not) will buy into the "Greatest Gunwriter In World Now Admits Black Guns Are Terrorist Weapons ONLY!!!!" statements made by the antis, without knowing or caring any more about Zumbo & his background, or the legitimate uses of said guns, than they did before. Today, headlines & sound bytes have much greater impact on those who don't have the interest, time, energy, or motivation to look into those pesky little details below the headlines & behind the sound bytes.
You're right, he was hardly a household word before. I'm moderately plugged into the industry, and I'd never heard of Zumbo till I saw him mentioned on the in-hotel TV channel in Vegas that constantly runs SHOT SHOW coverage during its run each year, about four years ago. Same Show, I stood behind him for a few minutes at the Remington booth waiting to talk to one of their reps. Otherwise, I've never read a word he's written prior to his career suicide, which I discovered on the gun forums. I don't read Outdoor Life. I'd safely bet he's much more widely known now than he was before.
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Old March 11, 2007, 03:31 PM   #39
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I still know very little about Mr. Zumbo. From the little I do know I dont think I want to know more. Seems like a very heated topic.

Heck, I hadn't even heard of him until I started to browse these forums.

In fact, the recent interest, in actually owning firearms myself, didnt fully develop until all the recent hubbub about bans started to be spread on the news and through the web. The situation that arose in the aftermath of Katrina is what rekindled it though.

I'll admit I was pretty ignorant, until recently about firearm ownership.

*shrugs* Better late, than too late.
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Old March 12, 2007, 09:09 AM   #40
rem33
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Denny Hanson,

Great idea I will be purchasing a copy of that SWAT.
Personally I hope it increases your readership substantially.
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Old March 12, 2007, 04:44 PM   #41
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Denny - Scott Reitz, July 05, "Gunfighting vs. Comfort". It may not have been titled "9mm vs. 45" but, in my estimation, that's what it boiled down to.

This is my take on Jim Zumbo: He said what he really believes. When he looked down he saw that it wasn't his johnson he was walking on but his paycheck. His ability to be so quickly "converted" has a decided lack of integrity.
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Old March 12, 2007, 08:11 PM   #42
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Elitists

Elitists exist everywhere; even within the gun community. These people believe themselves or their select few friends to be the only competent persons of skill. Jim Zumbo is the type of guy that believes he is the only one that "really" knows guns and hunting; since he is a "master" of the profession. I find some police officers to be the same way. They associate "civilians" as incompetent, while they are "masters" of the gun. These people would secretly try and remove your "rights" for you own good. Anyways, I was watching a shooting show, where some civilians schooled some swat officers on the art of shooting. Wish I could remember the show (it was a competition type show). Well, it made me laugh. Not all of us are going to be the "masters" or the greatest of marksmen. Not all of us are going to know everything about guns, but damnit we have the right to have them as the Constitution demands. See, that is what elitists really want...control of you and me, because to them, we are to stupid for our own good, and they know better.
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Old April 28, 2007, 08:27 PM   #43
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Just wondering

Any luck yet in scheduling Mr. Zumbo for a range session?
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Old April 29, 2007, 01:54 AM   #44
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The course is taking place over the next three days. The article will appear in our August cover date. It begins shipping to subscribers on 6/26 and hits newsstands on 7/17.
Denny
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Old May 4, 2007, 02:54 PM   #45
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So, how did he do? Has he embraced the light once again?
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Old May 4, 2007, 03:38 PM   #46
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The class just wrapped up a couple of days ago and Zumbo has not had time to write the article yet. However, talking to Pat, Sheriff Ken and Rich (who also attended the course) everything went very well. In an email from Jim this morning he described the class as, "one of the most incredible events of my life."
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Old May 5, 2007, 08:03 AM   #47
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I'll give this much of a glimpse:

Zumbo is not a "gun guy". He's a hunter and a sportsman and an outstanding shot, but he was unfamiliar with the AR and 1911 platforms. He's also an unbelievably quick study.

He's also a pretty damned humble and likable guy who made an enormous error. More than that, you'll just have to read in his own words.
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Old May 5, 2007, 08:33 AM   #48
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Denny and Rich, thanks for the "teasers!"

I, for one, can hardly wait to read the results.
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Old May 5, 2007, 10:48 AM   #49
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Out of curiosity. If Mr. Zumbo has difficulty finding a new magazine to write for. Is it possible that his hunting knowledge and other skills could be used in the S.W.A.T. Magazine? Maybe a survival segment or some such thing? I know he screwed up royally, however I believe that he could become an asset instead of a liability.

Thanks in advance. You folks do have a very fine publication.
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Old May 5, 2007, 11:40 AM   #50
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Rich and Denny, again, let me express that this was first class of you both.

Rich, do you get the feeling that Zumbo will do more shooting with the AR15 platform, on his own, in the future?

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