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Old February 22, 2007, 01:10 PM   #26
Charles S
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob
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Old February 22, 2007, 08:38 PM   #27
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Put me in with the Brady crowd and i may bend one of your teeth!! Just kidding. I ABSOLUTELY believe we have the right to carry as long as we are law abiding citizens. I would defend that right to the death. My point was if you cant pull the trigger when you need to then you should not carry. You cant say for sure you would unless you have. Look at some of the UTUBE clips and you can see the cops waiting to shoot. One of the big reasons they put spotters with snipers is so when the moment came to shoot they would.
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Old February 22, 2007, 09:05 PM   #28
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My point was if you cant pull the trigger when you need to then you should not carry. You cant say for sure you would unless you have.
Let's take this to its logical conclustion -- therefore no one should carry until they've been in a gunfight. That's what your saying. Of course, if you followed this, then you would not have a gun in your first gunfight, which is probably not a good way to survive it.

Getting back to the subject of Massad Ayoob, who, it appears, you have no direct knowledge of...

I've taken many training classes, about 200 hours worth, including LFI-1 and LFI-2. Ayoob is profane. He is also quite entertaining. You will spend a fair bit of time in his classes watching his videos. That is not because he is lazy. He does that so that if you get in a legal jam, your attorney may be able to get your training about justifiable use of deadly force introduced into evidence, and thus be able to present the videos to the jury.

The basic firearms training in LFI-1 is good. It is square range work, with little if any movement and no moving targets (at least, it was when I took it several years back). The safety training is excellent.

I've also trained at Sigarms Academy and Cumberland Tactics (Randy Cain, who also teaches at Gunsite). My style has evolved over the years to a blend of all three. I don't strictly follow the teachings of any of the three, but instead pick and choose what works for me. One of the things that I respect about Ayoob is that when there are several different techniques for a particular task, he will teach all of them, tell you which he prefers and why, but he is not dogmatic about it. He says try them all, see what works for you, and then train that way. There are schools that say everyone should carry this kind of gun and use that kind of stance and reload this way, etc., etc. That's not how Ayoob works.

Ayoob is unsurpassed in training the legal ramifications of deadly force -- when you can, and more importantly, when you cannot shoot. What to say to responding police officers, and how to not get shot by same.

My cousin was my best man at our wedding. He retired from the Marine Corps as a CWO4. With handguns, I can shoot rings around him. I have a great deal of respect for the Corps. But they don't teach the law of self defense. I suspect that, outside of special units, their handgun training is limited and that they don't cover drawing from a holster or holstering a loaded gun.

There are other schools that I think do a better job as shooting academies than LFI, but none that match LFI-1 for covering the legal aspects of deadly force. I think LFI-1 is a great class.
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Old February 22, 2007, 11:05 PM   #29
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Sorry about the misspelling, Doug.

I think I'm going to make a terribly tough decision and still go the training course in Michigan in May instead of the course with Mr. Ayoob.

I've done some research a couple of months back about Cumberland Tactics with Randy Cain instructing. My wife and I are going together as a vacation gift to each other.(We haven't been on a real vacation in 13 years )

However, the next stop at ANY course is going to be Mr. Ayoob's. You guys have really shed some serious light in the importance of Mr. Ayoob's training. But, we can only do a little at a time unfortunately.

Thanks again for the info. By all means, keep the posts coming. You never know what other valuable experiences people might share so that I and others can learn.
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Old February 22, 2007, 11:53 PM   #30
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As to training under a Marine, I have the utmost respect for them, but their training and that pertaining to civilian defensive tactics is apples and oranges. While the basics are close, I'm sure, using military tactics in the streets of Hometown, USA, is most likely to earn you a trip to the pokey.
Charlie, it's my understanding that Ayoob's never been in a firefight and has no legal education, yet he seems to give out a lot of legal advice. Some of his opinions, like the use of modified weapons, reloads, etc., in cases of s.d., seem to have emanated from between his ears. I'm convinced that some of Ayoob's theories are more damaging than helpful to me as a firearms owner.

I'll stick with real attorneys for legal advice. Will pay attention to real, well-educated and experienced l.e.o.s for the benefit of their advice. I'm skeptical of a seminar-giver whose only training was by attending the same kind of seminars that he gives.
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Old February 23, 2007, 01:38 AM   #31
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Abstract ~

Some of Ayoob's classes qualify as continuing education credits with the ABA. Apparently the lawyers themselves believe the man has some knowledge worth learning.

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Old February 23, 2007, 01:54 AM   #32
Mas Ayoob
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Tuttle8: While I've never taken one of Randy Cain's courses, I've heard lots of good things about his training from his graduates, and I'm sure you and your wife will learn a lot and have a good time. Enjoy!

Abstract: As I make clear to my students, I've never had to shoot anyone and hope to keep it that way. This is due largely to the fact that everyone I would have needed to shoot so far decided to cease hostilities when I got my gun on them first. However, both I and the next opponent may not be so lucky next time, which is why I continue to learn as well as teach.

Getting your legal advice from lawyers is the smart thing to do. I do it myself. Next time you're getting some legal advice from a lawyer, ask him or her to explain to you the difference between the legal advice they give, and the common sense courtroom survival advice that I offer. Might be a good thing for ya to know.

And finally, Abstract, if you think what I teach about courtroom survival is based on seminars, you haven't done your homework.
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Old February 23, 2007, 06:38 AM   #33
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I never said that unless you have been in a firefight you should not carry. What i am saying is that alot of guys take a CCW class and think they are good to go. some are and some are not. Many people including cops are shot with thier own gun because they did not pull the trigger when they should have. If you are going to carry you need to spend some time thinking about it and not take it lightly. Iknow people who carry who think all they have to do is show thier gun and its over. That may work sometimes but dont bet your life on it. I hope more people start to carry but only with a proper mental attitude. the west was not won until the good guys started shooting back.
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Old February 23, 2007, 07:17 AM   #34
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harlie, it's my understanding that Ayoob's never been in a firefight and has no legal education, yet he seems to give out a lot of legal advice.
It is my understanding as well that Ayoob has not been in a firefight. The same is probably true of most firearms instructors.

From what I remember from his classes, Ayoob has made a number of arrests as a reserve police officer, some at gunpoint. He has also displayed his gun on at least one occasion when he was accosted by two muggers, and detained one individual who broke into his home (on that occasion, I don't recall if he displayed his gun or not -- IIRC, it was mostly his great dane who did the detaining).

I don't know about his legal education. I do believe that he is not an attorney. However, he has worked as a police prosecutor for his local police department. In addition, he has testified as an expert witness in quite a few trials. So he has first-hand experience in the courtroom in self defense cases. That is something that most of us keyboard commandos do not have. Do I agree with everything he was written? No. But I don't dismiss it out of hand.
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Old February 23, 2007, 07:19 AM   #35
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What i am saying is that alot of guys take a CCW class and think they are good to go. some are and some are not. Many people including cops are shot with thier own gun because they did not pull the trigger when they should have. If you are going to carry you need to spend some time thinking about it and not take it lightly. Iknow people who carry who think all they have to do is show thier gun and its over. That may work sometimes but dont bet your life on it. I hope more people start to carry but only with a proper mental attitude.
If you read Ayoob's books or go to LFI-1, you'll see that he is in violent agreement with this. He spends a good deal of the course discussing mindset, that you have to ask yourself whether you are willing to take a life, and the time to do that is long before a gunfight.
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Old February 23, 2007, 08:50 AM   #36
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Charlie, it's my understanding that Ayoob's never been in a firefight and has no legal education, yet he seems to give out a lot of legal advice. Some of his opinions, like the use of modified weapons, reloads, etc., in cases of s.d., seem to have emanated from between his ears. I'm convinced that some of Ayoob's theories are more damaging than helpful to me as a firearms owner.
Most instructors have not been in a firefight. At the same time some of those who have, Like Jim Cirillo, give high marks to Mr. Ayoob. If Mr. Cirillo can endorse him and he has really been there on multiple occasions, I think I can accept what he is saying.

As far as legal advice, Mr. Ayoob has been an accept expert witness in MANY trials for both private citizens and LEOs. Lots of people like to poo-poo his advise as groundless gossip. It seems no matter how many times he points out actual cases that apply directly to his advice there will still be those who refuse to believe it. The latest was an entire article on "Seven Myths That Can Hang You In Court" in the current issue (May 2007) of COmbat Handguns. In the article are examples to back up every "myth." Frankly the arguments about Ayoob's advice being groundless are getting pretty damn annoying since it takes about 2 minutes to prove any one of them. It is easier though to shovel the Gun Store Commando machismo around that "all that matters is the shoot was good," "reloads make no difference for self defense" and other such claptrap.

To those who think all Ayoob is is a guy rehashing old training then feel free to put together a training regime, start a school, and perform as successfully as Mr. Ayoob and his graduates.
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Old February 23, 2007, 09:36 AM   #37
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While I've never taken one of Randy Cain's courses, I've heard lots of good things about his training from his graduates, and I'm sure you and your wife will learn a lot and have a good time.
I took LFI-1 about 8 years ago and Randy Cain's basic course the year before last.

Randy Cain's course is basically a shooting course. He spends very little time on the legal implications of the use of deadly force. He did cover shooting on the move and shooting moving targets -- something not done in LFI-1, IIRC.

I think I learned more about marksmanship from Randy than I did at LFI-1, but that may be because I'm a lot better shooter now and was able to absorb more. I may just have been oversaturated at LFI-1. My shooting style now is a blend of Randy's and Ayoob's styles.

I learned far, far more about the legal implications of deadly force in LFI-1 than I did in Randy Cain's course.

Bottom line is that I give both courses two big thumbs up.
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Old February 23, 2007, 10:25 AM   #38
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If one reads the research on what influences juries - and there is a large literature on it from social sciences and legal scholars - you would see that what Mas states is not out of line with the effects that they report from simulations or reviewing cases.

I found the, as I said before, the class most worthwhile.
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Old February 23, 2007, 02:25 PM   #39
Capt Charlie
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Charlie, it's my understanding that Ayoob's never been in a firefight and has no legal education, yet he seems to give out a lot of legal advice.
Neither have I (been in a firefight), Abstract, but in my 30 years in law enforcement, I've come literally within milliseconds of ending a human life on several occasions. On at least two occasions, debriefing revealed that I would have been legally justified in using deadly force, but I'm very glad that I didn't. One was attempting "suicide by cop" by slowly raising a Glock toward me, in spite of commands to drop it. I actually had my DA trigger pulled halfway back when he thought better of it and finally dropped it. He got the help he needed and is a productive, law abiding member of society today.

I don't know why some people think it necessary to have been engaged in an actual firefight to know, positively, whether or not you can. In those few seconds, I learned that I definitely am mentally prepared to do so, if need be.

All that was necessary was that I was placed in a situation where that decision had to be made, whether or not shots were actually fired.

I will say, however, that most who have never had to make that grim decision won't know for sure until that time comes.

Quote:
Some of his opinions, like the use of modified weapons, reloads, etc., in cases of s.d., seem to have emanated from between his ears.
My guess is that most of today's defensive tactics came from "between someone's ears" . Someone thought up things like the Weaver stance, flashlight techniques, and the list goes on. I'm not about to write them off because they didn't come from a computer or a team of engineers.

Then there's the legal ramifications of a shooting. The fight isn't over when shots stop being fired. Afterward, someone will spend weeks or months dissecting thoughts and actions that you had only seconds to deal with. For cops, when that someone is a chair-riding bureaucrat like Charlie Reynolds (Mas knows who I'm talking about) that believes a cop can do no right, you're very happy when someone like Mr. Ayoob has prepared you for the courtroom battle to come. I was raked over the coals for six months for simply aiming my duty weapon at a fleeing felon that almost ran me down in his vehicle; no shots were fired. Trust me, the legal battle can be almost as stressful as the shooting itself.

Bottom line: When a number of highly experienced, veteran SRT officers who have been there, done that, highly recommend Mr. Ayoob's training or expert witness, that's good enough for me.
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