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Old February 18, 2007, 08:04 PM   #1
Shane Tuttle
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Massad Ayoob might be in my area...

I started a thread inquiring about tactical handgun courses and a gentleman gave me a link that has a course with Massab Ayoob. I researched his name under Wikipedia and needless to say, I was impressed.
Anybody have any additional comments on him?
Has anybody had training from him or has at least met him?
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Old February 18, 2007, 08:14 PM   #2
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Ask him yourself, Tuttle. He's an active member at TFL, although I don't think his schedule permits a lot of time here.
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Old February 18, 2007, 08:22 PM   #3
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Small world, isn't it?
Thanks, Capt. Charlie. Hope your mastiff is doin' well.
Looks like I'll PM him and patiently wait for a reply.
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Old February 19, 2007, 12:44 AM   #4
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My thoughts about two of Ayoob's classes:

http://www.corneredcat.com/ClassReviews/LFI1.htm
http://www.corneredcat.com/ClassReviews/LFI2.htm

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Old February 19, 2007, 07:55 PM   #5
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What makes Ayoob such a GURU anyway? I take a marine who has been in combat any day.
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Old February 19, 2007, 07:58 PM   #6
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I like Ayoob and have purchased a few of his books and his DVD on use of deadly force. I do plan on taking his "LFI I" class when I get the time and money. If you have the chance to take a class, do so. I hear a lot of good things about the LFI stuff.
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Old February 19, 2007, 08:22 PM   #7
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Just curious, kgpcr, did you read Pax's reviews? I work with several veteran SRT officers that have trained under Mas, and their experience with him echos that of Pax.

As to training under a Marine, I have the utmost respect for them, but their training and that pertaining to civilian defensive tactics is apples and oranges. While the basics are close, I'm sure, using military tactics in the streets of Hometown, USA, is most likely to earn you a trip to the pokey.

Mas stresses staying alive and staying out of jail .
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Old February 20, 2007, 10:20 AM   #8
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kgpcr: Mas has had decades of intensive study and training in defensive tactics for private citizens. He would be the last one to suggest that he could train for combat.

He has worked extensively with Chuck Taylor, an Army Ranger VN combat vet. As regarding combat Marines, Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch) should meet your requirements, and I beleive he would speak well of Mas.
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Old February 20, 2007, 10:48 AM   #9
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Took LFI-1 and I thought the experience was well worth.
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Old February 20, 2007, 11:06 AM   #10
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Quote:
What makes Ayoob such a GURU anyway? I take a marine who has been in combat any day.
Unfortunately it is often not feasible to have a squad with automatic weapons and grenades travelling with you day to day, to say nothing of the use of air support and artillery to counter typical street crime.

Now for some reality. I have not yet had the opportunity to take any LFI courses but I have digested as much of Mr. Ayoob's writings as possible. I credit him for teaching me the skills that in one instance allowed me to effectively protect myself and thwart a carjacker back when I deliverred pizza in college 15 + years ago. In that same job I encounterred another situation where, thanks to having the "proper attitutde" as explained in his writings, I was able to de-escalate a very bad situation with a crazed biker twice my size and allow everyone to go home alive (although I was preparred to ensure I would go home alive no matter what way it turned out).

If you plan on studying under him I will tell you this based on his writings alone,

Leave your ego at home.

His training is not about "Justice" or "Standing Up For Yourself."

His training is about saving your life and after that keeping you out of prison. There are times when , although you are "in the right" you will be advised to eat some crow to defuse a situation. You may doubt the reason for this but do yourself a favor; ask him why and for examples of why rather than discounting his advise as for "wimps and pansies".
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Old February 20, 2007, 11:30 AM   #11
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What Mr Ayoob teaches, works on the street, and for sport shooters as well. I've learned alot from paying attention to what he writes and says, and practicing it. IMHO in addition to "talking the talk", Mr Ayoob also walks the walk. He's one of the few, that has been there and done that. I can't ask for more than that from any instructor. Regards 18DAI.
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Old February 20, 2007, 11:44 AM   #12
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Quote:
What makes Ayoob such a GURU anyway? I take a marine who has been in combat any day.
When I want to learn combat I will learn from a Marine, when I want to know about self defesnse I seek an expert in that arena, most Marines are not experts in self defense as an individual in a civilian environment, Mr. Ayoob is.

kgpcr, have you taken his courses and basing your opinion on your experience, or are you basing it on lack your lack of knowledge?

What other courses have you taken that you do recommend?

I highly recommend LFI, Mr. Ayoob is a dynamic speaker and an excellent teacher. One of the best courses you will ever take, and essential to a civilian who carries a weapon for self defense.
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Old February 20, 2007, 10:04 PM   #13
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Wow, I didn't mean to pour gas on the fire.
Thanks for y'all's inputs. I have more links to look up on this thread and others I've viewed to keep me busy until Christmas!

And there ain't nothin' wrong with that!
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Old February 20, 2007, 11:13 PM   #14
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As briefly mentioned in my profile, I've been fortunate both to have been in combat with some of those fine Leathernecks years ago and more recently on the street with law enforcement (the past 17 years).

Take it from one who knows, learning never,ever, ceases and comes from ALL Quarters. Repeat, ALL Quarters! Each of us has to sort out the good from the not-so-good while being as technically proficient as we possibly can be with a weapon. Situational awareness, obtaining any and all advantage(s) over the bad guy(s) and a good mindset are critical. We can and should learn from everyone, including the bad guys themselves! Many of the best that I've served with and would want backing me up are about as far away from your mental image of Jeff Cooper, Skeeter or Matt Dillon as they can be...look at Audey Murphy, Jim Cirrillo, SGT York and yes, Ayoob, as examples of gents who do not necessarily fit everyone's image of the consumate pistolero but who have gotten the job done. Learn from everyone. Study the details of what was done right as well as the screw-ups. Enjoy the journey, it should never end.

With a little luck backed up by a great deal of study/preparation , you may never have to employ appropriate force. I've been told by more than one felon that there was "something about" some cop/guy/gal/potential victim that caused them to abandon their plan...I think that they sensed some potential danger. Perhaps that is the best outcome.

It's not about the Marines or Ayoob having been to the top of the mountain...it's about all of us trying to get there.
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Old February 20, 2007, 11:34 PM   #15
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After reading Pax's reviews I would say that at $350.00 the value of his experience is a steal for that price.

The valuable thing that most of my mentors in life passed down is their experiences. When the time came and I had to cross those same bridges I was glad I had the benefit of their experiences and lessons.

Knowledge and experience like that is a valuable commodity.
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Old February 20, 2007, 11:52 PM   #16
tepin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgpcr
What makes Ayoob such a GURU anyway? I take a marine who has been in combat any day.
Pulling the trigger is easy. Knowing when its legal and how to stay out of jail is another matter. Look what the two border patrol agents are going through. They are being burned alive by their own kind. Who should you fear most: the DA in the suit and tie or the gangster kicking your front door in to snatch your TV? Die defending your home or die poor, divorced and from a prison cell.
You document what you read and document your training to increase the odds of staying out of jail. Take the class. If you have to ask what makes Ayoob such an expert, you have not done your homework. Start with google, then amazon.com, then ayoob.com.

Marines and combat????? Are you kidding? Seriously, you cannot take military training and tactics and apply them to civilian self defense. It just doesn't work.

Read the laws in your State. If you carry or plan to use a gun to defend your home, talk to an attorney about your deadly force options and attend training.
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Old February 21, 2007, 02:21 AM   #17
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Massad Ayoob

I took LFI-1 in 2000, and Streefire Rifle and a Class on investigating officer involved shootings in 2003, and LFI-2 in 2004. I've been reading Ayoob's articles since about 1978 (back then he did a lot of writing for Law & Order Magazine, which was where I first encountered him) and I think I've read all his books.

The thing I like best about Ayoob's firearms instruction is that he is not dogmatic about anything. If there is a valid alternate technique for stance or grip or some aspect of weapons manipulation, he can probably explain it and teach it. He himself favors a modified Isoceles stance but also teaches the Chapman and the Weaver, and a variety of different kneeling and prone positions. I also did find that he was very good at coaching new shooters or those experiencing problems.

The two day course "Judicious Use of Deadly Force" covers all the general legal principles involved in the use of deadly force. I think that everybody who contemplates using a firearm in self defense could benefit from this class. There is a great deal of misinformation floating around out there and it's a good idea to get correct information in a structured way so you have a better understanding of the topic.

The two day class "Stressfire" is LFI's basic firearms class, and the other classes build off of that. The instruction is basic and involves about 500 rounds of ammunition. I enjoyed it because, as I noted above, LFI teaches all the common variations in technique so that the user can best select that combination of techniques that best suits him or her.

The two classes can be taken separately and when completed, combined to get certification as a graduate of LFI-1, a useful thing of schedule or finances require you to split up the training into two parts.

His books are also pretty good resources:

IN THE GRAVEST EXTREME: THE ROLE OF THE FIREARM IN PERSONAL PROTECTION (1980) by Massad F. Ayoob

THE TRUTH ABOUT SELF PROTECTION (1984) by Massad F. Ayoob

THE GUN DIGEST BOOK OF COMBAT HANDGUNNERY (5th edition) (2003)
by Massad F. Ayoob

STRESSFIRE (1984) by Massad Ayoob

STRESSFIRE II: Advanced Combat Shotgun (1982) by Massad F. Ayoob

THE SEMI-AUTOMATIC PISTOL IN POLICE SERVICE AND SELF DEFENSE (1988)
By Massad F. Ayoob

IN SELF DEFENSE by Mike Izumi (Mike Izumi is an LFI assistant instructor)
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Old February 21, 2007, 09:55 AM   #18
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Quote:
What makes Ayoob such a GURU anyway? I take a marine who has been in combat any day.
I've had the good fortune to train under some of the top instructors in the business, including one ex-Marine who we all know and love. And, I've had occasion to train under Mas twice.

Mas teaches you when to shoot, while other instructors emphasize how to shoot. Both are equally important.
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Old February 21, 2007, 10:10 PM   #19
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Well as a Marine who has pulled a trigger for real i can tell you that there are those who can talk about it and those who have done it. No disrespect to Mas but has he ever been in a fire fight of any kind? Or is he one who knows from what he has studied?
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Old February 21, 2007, 10:50 PM   #20
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I know i should not double post but here it goes. I will say this MOST people who carry should not be. Time and time again we hear of people who got shot with thier own weapon. If you carry you have to be able to pull the trigger if needed. MOST people wont when the time comes. I have and its not an easy thing to do. Mine was in the military but its not a natural thing. you have to have the ability to pull the trigger when needed and alot of people talk alot of **** but when the time comes lets see what happens.
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Old February 22, 2007, 05:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
I will say this MOST people who carry should not be. Time and time again we hear of people who got shot with thier own weapon. If you carry you have to be able to pull the trigger if needed. MOST people wont when the time comes.
Do you have any stats to back these statements up? Granted this may apply to SOME who chose to carry. But I would argue that MOST would not. Just by choosing to carry and defend yourself shows that mentally you are willing to use deadly force if necessary, and most who carry have had some form of training (or plan on it) that has at least somewhat mentally conditioned them for a gunfight.

Citizens of this country have a right to protect themselves, and those who chose to get a CCW have a right to do so. If you really think that the average person who carries; cannot pull the trigger if necessary and is more likely to be killed by their own gun by a BG, then maybe you should go join the Brady crowd, that sounds like their rhetoric.
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Old February 22, 2007, 10:15 AM   #22
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The number of firearms accidents has been dropping in absolute terms over the years while the numbers of firearms in society and number of CCW/CHL holders has increased.
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Old February 22, 2007, 10:36 AM   #23
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kgpcr,

Thank you for your service to the country, I respect that and you. Again, thanks.

You have been tried under fire and know how you will respond, I understand that makes you different than most. Most people who experience trial by fire are unwilling to talk about it.

Quote:
I will say this MOST people who carry should not be. Time and time again we hear of people who got shot with thier own weapon.
Please back up that statement. I personally believe that everyone has a right to defend them self, upon what are you basing your assertion?

Please provide any data regarding civilians in a concealed carry scenario who are shot with their own weapon. I don't believe you can provide a single case, much less broad statistics.

Quote:
MOST people wont when the time comes.
Please back up that statement.

I asked you two questions. I will ask again.

In regards to Ayoob.

Quote:
kgpcr, have you taken his courses and basing your opinion on your experience, or are you basing it on lack your lack of knowledge?
Quote:
What other courses have you taken that you do recommend?
I know you know how you will respond under stress? Can you teach that? No you cannot, you can educate someone regarding the situation and feelings, but you cannot pre-program their response. Please let me know what you, who have been in combat can offer a civilian regarding concealed carry? What can you teach regarding situations that will arise in concealed carry that Mr. Ayoob cannot teach?

I cannot speak as to whether or not Mr. Ayoob has been in a gunfight, you may ask him. I can speak to the fact that he has studied the human response to stress in a gunfight extensively and he prepares his students for that stress.

Mr. Ayoob has trained hundreds if not thousands of students, many of whom have been in gunfights and have done well. That in itself is enough.

Again I state combat and civilian concealed carry are unrelated. If I want to walk the streets of Fallujah I will get trained by a Marine, if I want to assault beaches I will get trained by a Marine, if I want to clear houses in a MOUNT environment a Marine, but if I want to walk the city streets of Houston and be prepared for the problems that may arise there is none better than Mr. Ayoob to prepare me.

One cannot teach response in stress, but one can be prepared for it. Mr. Ayoob does that in his classes.

I respect you, but I personally think you are making statements that you cannot justify and are based upon your lack of knowledge.
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Old February 22, 2007, 12:08 PM   #24
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OK fellers, there seems to be a drift towards a subject that's likely to become somewhat... heated. I understand the passions involved, but tuttle asked about Mr. Ayoob. By going there in this thread, we do tuttle a disservice.

If you want to debate who should or should not be carrying, or the merits of Marine Corps training, start another thread, but let's keep this one on track.
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Old February 22, 2007, 01:01 PM   #25
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Quote:
I researched his name under Wikipedia and needless to say, I was impressed.
What exactly impressed you? There is nothing in wikipedia about him. I was curious myself and checked...they don't have anything on him

EDIT: Ahhh, you misspelled his name slightly. It's Massad Ayoob not Massab Ayoob.

Great career. Has a lot to be proud of.
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