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Old February 14, 2007, 12:54 PM   #1
pal-pal1961
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.30 Newton

Hello Fellas,
I am new to this forum, and I could use some help. I found a beautiful .30 Newton Rifle with the sweetest Double trigger I have ever felt and I can't find Ammo or brass anywhere. I do reload. Any Help would be great.
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Old February 14, 2007, 02:39 PM   #2
Trapper L
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It most likely is the 30 Belted Newton. This was a fabulous caliber in its day and few rounds today even get close to the efficiency of the cartridge. This cartridge is also known as the 30/338 mag. You can make brass several ways. Use 7 Mag brass and neck it up or take 338 mag brass and neck it down. I would use the 338 mag brass and neck down as this was the way the old timers did it and the chamber is probably reamed to accomodate the little extra thick neck. If you need loading data I have a bunch as I have one in a Remington 40X. If you just want to push the bullet, try a 150 gr Sierra HPBT at 3650'ps out of mine. It's explosive on a coyote. My bench loads would be the 190gr Winchester HPBT at 2700'ps which is not near max. It is one heck of a cartridge and it won't disappoint.
If you have a 7mag or have a piece of empty 7 mag brass, drop it in the chamber. If it loads in the chamber and the bolt closes, it's the Belted Newton. I would suggest RCBS dies. I've had issues with Redding and others for this cartridge. I am assuming that you own the gun. If not and you are going to pass on the purchase, kindly PM me, I would be a player for the gun.
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Old February 14, 2007, 03:18 PM   #3
pal-pal1961
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.30 Newton

Thanks for the Reply trapper. I do not think that it is a belted case. My info that I have collected says that Western Ammunition last loaded this in 1939 and it is also called the "Adolph Express". Yes I bought the rifle and am worried about not being able to shoot it. I believe the date of Manufacture is 1916. The bore is bright and the rifling great. If I could find some brass, I could reload some lower pressure loads and just see how it does. Thanks you.
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Old February 14, 2007, 04:21 PM   #4
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I have a .30 Newton in my Cartridge Collection and it is a Beltless round. The .35 Newton is the 30 necked up and it also is beltless.

There is a belted round based on the .338 Mag and came out even before the .300 Win. Mag. It is the .308 Norma Mag. It is also refered to as the ‘.30-.338 Win. Mag.’ Winchester did not like them using there case and beating them to a .30 cal mag. so they took the .338 and moved the neck forward to get a little more powder in it to get higher velocity hence born the .300 Win. Mag. We all know shooters are velocity crazy so the .300 Win. Mag became the popular choice. Some competition shooters use the .30-.338 because it has a longer neck. It is the cartridge that Winchester was going to make if Norma did not beat them to the punch.

I think Trapper L is thinking of the .308 Noram Mag and is defiantly belted and referred to as the .30-.338 Win mag.

Good luck finding Ammo for it and I do nto know if any other cartridge can be used to make one.
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Old February 14, 2007, 04:39 PM   #5
Mike Irwin
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There's no such thing as a "belted Newton" cartridge.

Charles Newton didn't do belts.

You're going to find it almost to totally impossible to find ammunition, brass, or loading information for this cartridge.

Both it and the .35 Newton have been obsolete for decades.

The last run of brass was made just after World War II when Fred Huntington of Speer fame made some.

The story goes that Fred Adolph, a well known gunsmith at the time, contracted with Newton to design the .30 and the .35 as proprietary rounds. When Newton started his "Buffalo Rifle" company he took on the two rounds under his own name.

The biggest problem with the rifles are that they are simply too lightly stocked for such powerful cartridges.

The .35s in particular had a VERY bad reputation of shattering through the wrist under recoil.

I'm in Pennsylvania right now dealing with the aftermath of the death of my Father, but when I get home and get access to my reference books I'll see if there are any common cartridges that can be converted to the .30 Newton.

If you don't hear from me within a week, send me a private message.
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Old February 14, 2007, 04:52 PM   #6
pal-pal1961
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.30 Newton

Thank you Pesta and Mike for your info. Any info will help. I am now starting to worry that I should not of bought this gun. It is a shame because it is such a fine looking and feeling rifle, and it might just end up a wall decoration. I am a shooter and not a collector and Before I bought it, I figured that Old Western Scrounger or someone would have ammo or brass and there was another guy looking at it at the same time I was. Mike, You are right on the slim stock. It is very narrow on the forend and the whole stock is slim. I am very sorry to hear about your Dad. Hope you will be OK.
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Old February 14, 2007, 06:27 PM   #7
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Mike Irwin, I would refer you to P O Ackleys manual, volume 1, page 432. The 30 Belted Newton. It was a great cartridge and is the same as the 30/338mag. It is not the same cartridge as a 308 Norma Mag.
Sorry pal-pal that I don't have the correct info for you. You would think with the intense library I have that I would have something on it but I don't.
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Old February 14, 2007, 08:51 PM   #8
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Might want to give this a try. I'm not sure wether these will be the belted version or the non-belted. But its a place to try.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,5754.htm
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Old February 14, 2007, 10:07 PM   #9
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Huntington shows special order dies for a 30 Newton and a 30 Belted Newton.Belted Newton's are easy enough to form.Have no idea what you would form a 30 Newton from.
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Old February 14, 2007, 10:37 PM   #10
Mike Irwin
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Trapper,

I'm away from my Ackley books, but as I understand it, the .30 Belted Newton was not designed by Charles Newton.

It was done both as a measure to make Newton rifles usable once again after it became nearly impossible to find cases for the rifles.

It's a situation similar to that of Col. Townsend Whelen. He had nothing at all to do with the development of the .35 Whelen -- they just named it for him because he was famous at the time.
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Old February 14, 2007, 11:25 PM   #11
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Well,Huntington has dies,Reloadersnest has loads,Buffalo Arms has brass although $2.50 each.Shows a 180 grain at 2890,not too shabby.You can make it work if you want to.
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Old February 15, 2007, 09:15 AM   #12
pal-pal1961
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.30 Newton

Thanks Guys!
I did look up Buffalo Arms and they do have Brass, so I'm in business. I'm sure the primers will be Win.WLR and 4350 will work in any case that size. Half-Price Books here in Austin has the Phillip Sharpe book I have been looking for, and they have it on hold for me. I know that book has many loads for the Newton cartridges. I really appreciate the help fellas. Mike, I will let you know how hard this rifle kicks. I know these rifles have a rep for "crossing your eyes". Thanks again.
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Old February 15, 2007, 09:38 AM   #13
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I have a couple of old manuals with some 30 Newton info in them. If you're interested pm me.
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Old February 15, 2007, 09:40 AM   #14
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The new, newer, newest .375 Ruger is said to be on the same head diameter as the .30 Newton. Sure looks like you could neck down that brass, when actually on the market. I bet some enterprising custom riflemaker will do that and advertise The Return of the Newton. More useful than a .375, anyhow.

Huntington and Buffalo Arms list .30 Newton brass from Jamison,
http://www.huntingtons.com/cases_jamison.html
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cf...atid=35&step=2

The .30 Belted Newton aka .30-338 has nothing to do with Charles Newton except to give about the same ballistics as the .30 Newton with common brass.

Be careful with Sharpe's load data. Powders have changed in the past 50+ years and his loads might not be what they appear.
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Old February 15, 2007, 11:10 AM   #15
Mike Irwin
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I'll be damned. .30 Newton brass is available again.

That is going to make a friend of mine VERY happy, as he has a .35 Newton that was his Grandfather's or something like that.

Pal, have the stock inspected VERY VERY carefully for cracks before you shoot it.

I heard that people used to take the original Newton stock off the rifle and have it restocked with something more robust to guard against ruining the original.
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Old February 15, 2007, 11:42 AM   #16
pal-pal1961
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.30 Newton

Mike, i will be very careful. The stock has no cracks or splits in it as of yet. It is very slim. Reminds me of a Savage Model 1920 that my Dad had when I was a kid. It was a 250-3000 and cracked right behind the saftey. My initial loads that I load will be something on the lines of 2700fps with Imr 4320 or 4350 a 150 gr Hornady bullet. That should not be too much even though I am a little leary of a rifle that is 91 yrs. old. The same Guy that I bought this gun from also has a 256 Newton, 1st issue, that he wants quite a bit more than I paid for the .30 rifle, so I am thinking about that one if this one is OK. He also has a strange Marlin Lever Action 336 in a caliber called 7mmSTE. He says that it is an awsome flat shooting rifle, but he wants too much for it (at least I think so). Any way, thank you all! Pal
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Old February 15, 2007, 02:35 PM   #17
Mike Irwin
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I've got to ask, what did you have to give for the .30 Newton, and what does he want for the .256?

If I remember correctly, the .256 Newton used a shortened .30-06 case, so that should be a bit easier to feed.
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Old February 15, 2007, 02:44 PM   #18
Jim Watson
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The .246 Newton is on '06 brass shortened only about .040", the shoulder set back about that much, and more taper. Donnelly says about 4 grains less case capacity than .30-06.

Pal, what action is your guy's .256 on? It is my recollection that Newton meant to build guns on Magnum Mauser actions but WW I put paid to that idea. So he sold .256 rifles and conversion barrels for Springfields until he could get his own design in production for the big cases.
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Old February 15, 2007, 05:10 PM   #19
pal-pal1961
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.30 Newton

Mike, I paid 800.00 for the rifle with no scope or mounts on it. He wants 2500.00 for the .256 with a very old Zeiss scope on a Redfield Jr. Mount. I dont think he thought I could find brass or ammo for the .30, which is why I got a deal on it. (I guess it was a deal) Both Rifles are 1916 1st model and both look like they are 10 yrs. old. I am no expert, but they dont look refinished either and I have spent alot of time at Collector's Firearms in Houston Texas, and know what a refinished job looks like. Jim, I think it is a Newton Action, but I could be wrong. Do you guys know anything about that 7mm STE? This guy says it will blow the new 308 Marlin Express out of the water. Is the .256 Newton a 25 caliber bullet or a 6.5? Thanks-Pal
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Old February 15, 2007, 05:53 PM   #20
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I THINK the 7mm STE is the Shooting Times Easterner. There's also a line called the STW, Shooting Times Westerner.

The Easterner cartridges are for lever guns, the STWs are seriously potent cartridges for bolt rifles.

Yep, here you go, Pal.

Google and ye shall receive: http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w7mmste.html

Layne Simpson designed the STE.
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Old February 15, 2007, 06:11 PM   #21
Jim Watson
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The .256 Newton shoots a .264" bullet.

Either he did not want to use a funny furrin metric designation, did not think Americans would buy into a new number like .264; or he was traditional in nomenclature by bore diameter rather than bullet diameter. Or all of the above.
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Old February 15, 2007, 06:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
There is a belted round based on the .338 Mag and came out even before the .300 Win. Mag. It is the .308 Norma Mag. It is also refered to as the ‘.30-.338 Win. Mag.’ Winchester did not like them using there case and beating them to a .30 cal mag. so they took the .338 and moved the neck forward to get a little more powder in it to get higher velocity hence born the .300 Win. Mag.

As Trapper L pointed out the 30-338 Winchester and the 308 Norma are not the same. Most everyone believed that Winchester would standardize the 30-388 as their next 30 caliber magnum, this was not the case they did indeed move the shoulder forward on the 338 and produced the 300 Winchester mag, early criticized for having too short a neck to be accurate (this has not proven to be the case).

The 30-338 Winchester and the 308 Norma are great cartridges, very accurate and fairly efficient.
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Old February 16, 2007, 06:54 PM   #23
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Mike, sorry for your loss.

I enjoy your posts, and the cheerful mania for cartridge history that they show.
:wave: :wave:
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Old February 16, 2007, 09:39 PM   #24
Trapper L
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Same here Mike, sorry to hear about your dad. It's not fun losing a parent. I lost two dads, the real one and my step dad. Both were great men. I'm sure yours was too. I look forward to bantering with you when you get back.

Col Whelen didn't have anything to do with the 35 Whelen? Now there's an aurguement that's been going on for decades.
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Old February 17, 2007, 01:13 AM   #25
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Mike and Trapper

Mike sorry to hear of your loss also.

I read/heard somewhere the 30 newton was based on the 8x68 Schuler case, at least that was what some folks were using to form Newton cases with.

I'm away visiting right now also and away from my manuals also. I won't be back home until the end of next week.

Hope you keep the thread going till then.

Best wishes, Bill
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