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Old February 22, 2007, 11:47 PM   #26
westphoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudcroft
Take a look at the Beretta 3032 Tomcat (Inox version)
I do not know what the Inox version is, but I did check the .32acp Berretta.
Although it was small, it wasn't as small as I wanted.
My preference is DA/SA pistols, but for something like this (backup/pocket gun) I really wanted small and simple.

Last edited by westphoenix; February 23, 2007 at 02:44 PM.
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Old February 23, 2007, 01:04 AM   #27
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Quote:
I like to shoot in the desert off of S. Rainbow Valley Rd., South of W. Ray Rd.. I will probably not have time for the drive though and if I have any time I will most likely go to Shooters World, unless you know somewhere closer west? I am at 75th Ave and Thomas.
If that's the place I'm thinking about, that's where I go!!!

It's about 15 minutes from my house here in Buckeye. Last I heard, the BLM was kicking people out of there!!!

I don't know of any place closer for the time being. They have started construction on the new range at the Buckeye Hills facility, but it won't be ready for about eight months!! I've been trucking all the way up to Ben Avery!!! How much do they charge at Shooter's world??
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Old February 23, 2007, 01:39 AM   #28
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$12 an hour for non-members. I am not member.
All indoor with 6 or so rifle lanes that are not too busy during weekdays.
The rifle range is not very long, but good enough to test a new purchase out, etc.
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Old February 23, 2007, 07:52 AM   #29
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I just had to make the same decision for a BUG and one for deeper concealment. I had it down to the Bersa .380, Kahr, Seecamp, NAA, Walther, Mak, and the Sig P232.
The Keltec felt like a POJ in my hand. I read to many failures on some of the Seecamps and NAA's. The P232 was clearly the right choice for me, it's to big for rear pocket carry, but hides well in a slacks or jeans front pocket. Good luck with your Seecamp, they are a beautiful pistol. Here's my P232SL

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Old February 23, 2007, 07:57 AM   #30
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NCHornet said
Quote:
"I read to many failures on some of the Seecamps ..."
Where did you see these posts? Seecamp has a very good rep. I am curious what failures are being observed.
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Old February 23, 2007, 08:20 AM   #31
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"The Kahr CW9093 has an MSRP of $533.00
The Sig P232 has an MSRP of $519.00
The Walther PPK/S has an MSRP of $543.00"


i have owned all three of those at some point(well my kahr ia a pm9,but pretty much the same), and i would highly recommend the sig and the kahr, my experiance with the walther wasnt good, and i had two of them. its a very attractive gun, but i wouldnt stake my life on it, way too many jam ups/ftf.
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Old February 23, 2007, 08:38 AM   #32
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Check into Bersa. In my opinion...good quality - relatively low cost.
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Old February 23, 2007, 10:14 AM   #33
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Well, the cheapest Kahr PM9 has an MSRP of $746.00. Well above the posters maximun.

PSP, I'd imagine that many of the problems with the Seecamp were the failure to use proper OAL ammunition. There is also a problem with rim-lock if loaded incorrectly. Some years ago, just after Seecamp upgraded the facility to increase production, they had some QC issues initially. There are also the inevitable failures endemic to pocket carry, lint and dirt gumming up the works. Often, the weapon will be blamed for them.
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Old February 23, 2007, 02:39 PM   #34
westphoenix
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Although I never shot a Sig P232, I am interested in them.
But for this purpose it was too large.
Wouldn't mind getting one someday, I think it would make a good carry for the gf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denfoote
If that's the place I'm thinking about, that's where I go!!!
To be a little more specific. I like to shoot between Rainbow Valley Rd and Tuthill Rd., South of Ray Rd. Seems like everytime I go out there, more and more of it is fenced off. I drive about 1/2 mile in and park inbetween some hills. The hills are good backstops and people tend not to bother you in there.

I have been noticing some stolen vehicles and trash being dumped out there. That may be the reason for the crack down. I believe the land I shoot on is non-marked private land. I always pickup my mess.
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Old February 24, 2007, 12:48 AM   #35
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Old February 24, 2007, 08:48 AM   #36
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"Well, the cheapest Kahr PM9 has an MSRP of $746.00. Well above the posters maximun."



I doubt anyone pays that much for one though(i sure hope not). I paid $500 something for mine brand new.
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Old February 24, 2007, 10:25 AM   #37
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Kahr PM9, USED

If you look around you CAN find one in your price range. I know because I've seen them.

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Old February 24, 2007, 01:21 PM   #38
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The referenced price was MSRP, that was also used for other weapons earlier in the thread. It's a more definite price, and doesn't have anything to do with "local" prices.

Be sure that you know enough about the weapon to spot problems if you're going to buy used. Not everyone wants "used", or has the ability to pick the good ones out.

Reading the threads here will soon show you that a lot of people shouldn't buy used weapons. They inevitably blame the manufacturer when their "used" weapon doesn't work as well as they'd like it to.
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Old February 24, 2007, 04:38 PM   #39
tshadow6
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pocket pistol

Try a Bersa Thunder CC .380 Same quality as a Walther PPK, less than 1/2 the price. I carry mine in the pocket.
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Old February 24, 2007, 04:49 PM   #40
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Quote:
Try a Bersa Thunder CC .380 Same quality as a Walther PPK, less than 1/2 the price. I carry mine in the pocket
I see people say all the time that the Bersa is "the same quality" as the PPK.

I have to strongly disagree with that statement.

The PPk is solid stainless and very well put together.

The Bersa's are made from an alloy with a rough powercoat type of finish.

Both are equally reliable and functional but the PPK is a much higher end piece materials and build wise. The Bersa CC is a great design and would love to see one in stainless steel but it is not made of as high end materials as the Walther.

A Honda Civic is a reliable and functional as a Mercedes SLK, but to say they are the same quality vehicles or similar beyond their reliability and functionality would be quite a stretch.
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Old February 24, 2007, 05:07 PM   #41
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Pocket Pistol

That's a very nice little CCW. I may end up with one of those if I can't find a nice little Colt Mustang Pocketlite. Anyone know of one for sale? Sure can't find any around here in central FL.
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Old February 24, 2007, 11:08 PM   #42
westphoenix
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Some observations about the Seecamp and some questions about the NAA Guardian. I have not fired the Seecamp yet.
Edit: I have read the Guardians manual and have answered some of my own questions.

With the Seecamp I cannot pull the trigger or function the slide if the magazine is not in.
Is there a slide lock (mag disconnect) on the NAA Guardian also?
No, the slide and trigger can be pulled without a magazine inserted. I think this is a plus for the Guardian over the Seecamp, unless the Seecamp can be modified.

The Seecamps magazine release is nice if there are rounds in the magazine.
In the Seecamp an emtpy magazine is not sprung out, it takes a little effort to pull it out.
The short time I checked out a NAA Guardian today I noticed the empty mag dropped out no problem. Mag release seemed smoother than the Seecamp.
Edit: This is another advantage the Guardian seems to have over the Seecamp.

The Seecamps recoil/slide spring is strong and the slide is small.
It felt much easier to rack the Guardians slide.
It is easier to function the Seecamps slide when there are rounds in the magazine.
This is due to the high sitting magazine follower.
I believe this is good for reliability, but the drag of the follower on the bottom of the slide makes it more difficult to function the slide.
Edit: As long as it is reliable it doesn't bother me that the slide is harder to rack. But if they are equaly reliable I would prefer the racking of the Guardian.

The Seecamp is slightly smaller and lighter than the Guardian.
I also heard the Seecamp's trigger is smoother and easier to pull.
Edit: Size is not that much different, but the Seecamp being slightly smaller and lighter is a plus for the Seecamp. I would really like to shoot both back to back to compare.

Don't get me wrong I do like the Seecamp, but I am interested in the 32acp Guardian also.
I dislike the Seecamp's slide lock though, can I modify it (because that is my only major dislike of the Seecamp)?

Edit: I am really thinking about getting a Guardian and testing them both out to see which I really like (and will stick with). Who knows, maybe after I shoot the Seecamp I will not be able to part with it.

Edit: Does the Guardian have an ejector?

Last edited by westphoenix; February 25, 2007 at 12:12 AM.
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Old February 25, 2007, 08:53 AM   #43
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Seecamp, excellent choice.

Carries great in a Kramer pocket holster.
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Old February 25, 2007, 05:51 PM   #44
JimK66
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Pocket Pistols

Seems like there are a lot of us looking for just the right little pistol to carry around in our pocket.
I had the chance today to take my time and handle several without being hurried. The sales person was great, very patient and really helped me do some eliminating.
Sig 232 nice but too large.
Kel-tec, Bersa I just didn't like and had shot them before.
Seacamp - pretty, but didn't feel good and I like some sort of sights on my guns.
Kahr P9 - too large (almost as large and heavy as my M&P 9c and both are 6.5" long)
Beretta - not bad, but felt and looked like a toy (I didn't feel or see any quality in the little gun).
I would have liked to see a NAA 380 acp, but they didn't carry them. Whet do you guy's know about the NAA Guarnians's? Any good???
I would really love to find a nice little Colt Mustang Pocketlite, but can't find a scent of one around here. The guy's on the internet are asking crazy prices for them on there especially when I know of a real nice one that sold for $525 last week at a gun show over on the west coast.
Anyone have one for sale???
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Old February 25, 2007, 07:25 PM   #45
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Quote:
With the Seecamp I cannot pull the trigger or function the slide if the magazine is not in.
Is there a slide lock (mag disconnect) on the NAA Guardian also?
No, the slide and trigger can be pulled without a magazine inserted. I think this is a plus for the Guardian over the Seecamp, unless the Seecamp can be modified.
I dont think your going to get the Seecamp modified, this is part of the design. The mag safety on the Seecamp is a two fold thing, one, is due to the design that gets it as small as it is and requires the mag to be in for trigger function, two, is a safety thing that allows you to not have the mag in and the gun is disabled so it wont shoot or unload. I've never been a big fan of mag safeties, but I understand the design issue on the Seecamp and thats just the way it is. I really dont think its a big deal with this type of pistol.

Quote:
The Seecamps magazine release is nice if there are rounds in the magazine.
In the Seecamp an emtpy magazine is not sprung out, it takes a little effort to pull it out.
The short time I checked out a NAA Guardian today I noticed the empty mag dropped out no problem. Mag release seemed smoother than the Seecamp.
Edit: This is another advantage the Guardian seems to have over the Seecamp.
I think this is a big advantage for the Seecamp, or any pocket type pistol. There is much less of a chance that the mag wont be in the gun when you pull it out with the bottom release. The push button release is to easily activated if not protected. Again, with these types of pistols, I dont think a speed reload or a reload at all is really an issue.

Quote:
I dislike the Seecamp's slide lock though, can I modify it (because that is my only major dislike of the Seecamp)?
The Seecamp doesnt have one, and truthfully, I really dont see that one is necessary.

Maybe I see them as something different than what some others seem to think they are. I see them as a last ditch BUG that might occasionally do duty as a primary in certain situations. I wouldnt be happy if its all I had, but I'd be happy I had it.
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Old February 25, 2007, 10:52 PM   #46
lanceman193
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Another vote for Seecamp in a leather pocket holster.I have had one in my pocket most days for 10 years and ,although It gets shot only about 2 magazines worth about 3 times a year,it has yet to malfunction.
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Old February 26, 2007, 11:59 AM   #47
westphoenix
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I dont mean slide lock as something to hold the slide open. I mean the slide is locked when the magazine is not inserted. I don't see the point in a mag disconnect (for trigger or slide). I think the heavy pull of the trigger itself is the only safety needed. Having the slide locked when the mag is out of the gun makes it more difficult to clear the chamber, disassemble and reassemble. To clear the chamber you either need to rack the slide back for every round, or you need an empty magazine handy. Because it is a pocket pistol that is one more reason IMO not to have a mag disconnect. I mean what if the mag was released in your pocket, now if you pull it you cant even fire one round. This "safety" could cost you your life. I feel pretty confident though that I will not have this issue the way I carry it. I have never liked mag disconnects, and I really dislike the slide being locked also.

As far as the mag release goes, it has grown on me a little now that I got a chance to shoot it. The emtpy mags seems to come out a little smoother now, but still not as easy as they could be. But this is not a major issue for this type of pistol. I might (now) prefer the mag release where it is over the Guardians location.

I did fire 86 rounds of Win Silvertips. The 3rd shot of the first magazine was a failure to fire, I pulled the trigger again and it fired. There was no other issues in any way. For being as small as it is, it handled pretty well.

After shooting it I cleaned and oiled it. The slide is a little easier rack. All around it seems a little smoother functioning.

I have heard people complain about the take down of the Seecamp, and although it requires something to push in the button to remove the slide, it is not a big deal.

I do like my Seecamp though and would recommend it as a pocket/back-up gun.
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Old February 26, 2007, 12:47 PM   #48
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I think the biggest issue with the mag safety for the Seecamp is function related, as the mag is required for the draw bar spring to stay in place. They specifically tell you not to touch the trigger while removing the mag as it will disable the mag safety and allow the trigger to be pulled without the mag in the gun, which in turn allows the spring to collapse into the mag well if you do. If you try to reinsert the mag, you damage the spring. They gave me a spare with my gun and instructions as to how to replace it. The enclosed note said this was their number one repair problem.

The mag lock thing really isnt all that bad once your used to it. If you just drop the mag slightly, you can easily unload the loaded round.

Mine gets loaded, and usually only gets unloaded with the trigger in practice. I dont fiddle with it much in between, so its peculiarities are pretty much a moot point. With the bottom release on the mag, its not coming out without work, so I'm not worried about surprises and the mag safety thing is a non issue.

I agree, they are peculiar in some of their function. I still dont see its a problem with this type pistol. If I'm down to it, things are not good, and I know a speed reload will be the last of my worries, especially since I dont carry one for it, as its usually a back up for other things. Besides, I have backups for it too, and if things are that bad, that I'm that far down the chain, I'm not going to be in a very good mood. Bad moods combined with sharp objects are usually worse than a .32 at close range anyway.
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Old February 26, 2007, 05:19 PM   #49
westphoenix
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Ill try just partcially removing the mag and racking the slide.
If that works, Ill be satisfied.
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Old February 26, 2007, 06:12 PM   #50
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Hey Guys... if you want to learn some more about Seecamps....

Come on over to the Seecamp forum..

http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

Alot of these issues you are discussing are designed into the pistol and they are there for a reason, do some searches for some of these topics and I think you would find some interesting answers...

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