The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 8, 2007, 02:20 PM   #1
BouncerDan
Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2006
Location: Gainesville Fl
Posts: 41
Rough Night

Hey everybody, I have a situation that I need your input on.

As you either know or can figure from my name I am a bouncer at a night club. Last night I had a confrontation with a Hispanic male. The guy was very muscular and it ended up taking several bouncers to remove him from the club. Obviously he didn't want to be removed. After we gave him several chances to stop and calm down we ended up literally throwing him out/ At that point he stood on the street outside the club yelling about how he was going to F*#% us up and all of that kind of stuff.

Anyway after we got him out he kept tryin to charge the three of us. So we called the police they came and at our request we had a no trespass warrant issued. However after the police had taken the statements from all three bouncers and the club owner on scene he pulled us away from the crowd and told us that he subject had several convictions for aggravated assault and battery. And was known to illegally carry weapons. And that we were at that point in serious danger of him tryin to come back and make good on his threats.

I am a concealed carry licence holder but as you all know you can not carry into a bar. So does anyone have any suggestions on how to better defend ourselves against someone like this. I mean I know the obvious about situational awareness but are there any other pointers out there.

Thanks guy.

Dan
__________________
This year will go down in history as the first year a civilized nation has full gun control, our streets will be safer, our police more effective. The rest of the world will follow our lead into the future." Adolf Hitler 1939.

Sig 229 (.40 cal)
Beretta 92 FS
Beretta PX4 (.40 cal)
Ruger P94TH (.40 cal)
Ruger 10/22
AR 15
Mossberg 500 (12GA) (modified by myself from hunting variant to home defence variant)
Remington 870 (20 GA)
BouncerDan is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 02:50 PM   #2
tydephan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2006
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 437
Good question.

Wish I had a good answer for you.

My thoughts are based around the consequences of ignoring the "no carry in bar rule" as opposed to ignoring the iminent threat.

I.e...would you rather be cited/fined/fired for being prepared or beaten/stabbed/killed for not being prepared.

As I said...not a good answer...but my thoughts nevertheless. Are you allowed to carry any type of less-than-lethal weapon? Taser? Spray?

Good luck in Dan vs Big hairy Latino Part II.
tydephan is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 03:04 PM   #3
AR15FAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2006
Posts: 179
You play with fire you get burned, carry illegally and you go to jail and lose your RTBA. Easy for a member here to tell you to
Quote:
.e...would you rather be cited/fined/fired for being prepared or beaten/stabbed/killed for not being prepared.
But they are not paying the fine or doing the time. By the way, what difference does it make that it was a Hispanic male? Just curious why you mentioned that.
__________________
Use your most powerful weapon first, your brain.....
AR15FAN is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 03:12 PM   #4
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,967
Quote:
how to better defend ourselves against someone like this.
Many years ago when I did your job I had a sap, it is a leather "sock" filled with lead birdshot. One hit almost anywhere and they left real fast.

One nite I took a sawed off shotgun off of a guy, he had it under his coat and was going to shoot one person that was in there. He came down from a rival biker bar. anyway, I was alerted to this dangerous situation so I came up on him asked him to open his coat, he said heck no, one hit to his head down he went, yep a sawed off 12 ga. Cops called he was arrested and taken away, gun confiscated. Cops said I had no worries about them arresting me for the sap, I got it from my cousin a cop

Another time I "escourted" a guy out the door, when I turned my back on him he shot me. Ouchie momma that hurt. In the left shoulder blade. The bullet fragged and there is still a piece of it in there. .25 auto. I think he meant to head shoot me and missed lucky me.
markj is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 03:15 PM   #5
buckster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2006
Posts: 674
Invite martial artists

Invite some really good martial artists to hang around for a while. Texas walker types can be good as a gun in this case. Put a permanent restraining order on him first. Keep aware of him, so he can't track you home. Cameras will help.
buckster is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 03:41 PM   #6
tydephan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2006
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 437
Quote:
Easy for a member here to tell you to
AR,

In my defense...I did admit it was probably a lousy answer.
tydephan is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 04:00 PM   #7
AR15FAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2006
Posts: 179
Haha, I stand corrected tydephan, you were just the closest example handy.
__________________
Use your most powerful weapon first, your brain.....
AR15FAN is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 04:10 PM   #8
tydephan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2006
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 437
Quote:
you were just the closest example handy.
LOL. And deservedly so. No worries!
tydephan is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 04:12 PM   #9
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,306
Dan, if so permitted, you might want to consider a ballistic vest while you're working.

I don't know the physical layout of your establishment, but would it be possible to install small gun lockers like those used in courthouses at the entrance? I'm thinking a confrontation is most likely to occur outside. A locker would allow you to arm yourself before you leave.

The only thing I'm not sure of is where, near the entrance, you could do so and still be legal as far as carrying in a bar.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 04:26 PM   #10
Trip20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 2,181
I don't know if this is a good idea logistically. But if there is a need for armed security, and you're unable to carry inside establishments that serve alcohol, then this might be one option:

Speak to the owner about having one (or more) armed staffed stationed outside. You do not go into the bar - you are strictly outside. Other inside staff can take care of getting people to the door, where you can then assist them outside.

This way you can carry. But your primary purpose will be for outside security (i.e., keeping people out and dealing with the drama that goes on out front of busy clubs.

Can the owner carry inside since it's his property? That may be another option.

Can the owner authorize you as his staff to carry inside? Meaning it would be completely separate from carrying inside under authority of a concealed carry permit. Maybe worth looking into.

I dunno -- these are just a few random ideas, and I really don't know the law in your area so take my comments with that in mind. Either way, good luck. That's one job where you'll make enemies. Mix morons with alcohol, add a dose of testosterone, and no matter how rational and fair you treat others, you're bound to make an enemy.

I did it in a country music bar with live bands (and it was more agonizing because I hate country music). Made a lot of good friends, and a few enemies.
__________________
Get Involved!
Trip20 is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 06:24 PM   #11
G-Cym
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2006
Posts: 366
Those are some good answers trip. I would also be willing to bet that the owner of the bar, being an owner of a bar, has a lawyer. You could ask the owner to ask the lawyer about some of this stuff as well.
G-Cym is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 07:22 PM   #12
Lurper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2006
Posts: 943
Check the laws regarding less than lethal weapons like Taser. That may be a viable option. Also armed staff outside and body armor are well advised. I once took a punch in the kidneys and even with a vest on, it almost brought me to my knees. I shudder to think what would've happened had I not been wearing it.
Lurper is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 09:18 PM   #13
Ant1
Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2007
Location: IL
Posts: 15
Has anyone here considered pepper spray?????? It may not be as macho as a firearm, but it is something that can be carried concealed and doesn't take much training to employ. It won't be as effective against a firearm, however since you cannot carry a firearm into a bar then it's not that big of a deal. You also can also use spray with dye to identify people afterwards (think barfight).
__________________
Keep Working Millions On Welfare Depend On You!!
Ant1 is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 09:50 PM   #14
Trip20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 2,181
Quote:
It may not be as macho as a firearm...
What's so macho about a firearm? Does having a firearm make you a tough guy?
__________________
Get Involved!
Trip20 is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 09:54 PM   #15
hodaka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2006
Location: South Texas
Posts: 1,828
Shotgun behind the bar? With the owner's consent.
hodaka is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 11:08 PM   #16
guntotin_fool
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2004
Posts: 1,446
First I would make sure your state law PROHIBITS you as an employee from carrying in the bar. I know that it prohibits patrons, but employees are often covered differently, the same as hiring armed security.

I used to bounce, in the old days, I carried a sap all the time, and used it a lot. At that time it was common use. Then state law changed and it was added to the same category as a slung shot or switchblade. If your state allows a sap, I believe they are the tops in non lethal close defense. However, I have also been threatened by patrons and customers who have really left me worried. Hispanics, without being a racial profiler, seem to be very hung up on the "respect" issue and "Macho" originated in the culture. I have had more trouble with hispanics who felt some degree of disrespect and feel a need to seek some sort of retribution than any other group.

I would suggest you take some appropriate action as far as seeking some way to carry at work, or at least carry to the non public areas of the facility.
guntotin_fool is offline  
Old February 9, 2007, 04:18 AM   #17
BouncerDan
Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2006
Location: Gainesville Fl
Posts: 41
Hey guys thanks for all the ideas and please keep them coming.

However I can rule out some things.

A) Weapon lockers (according to local police they are illegal)
B) Pepper Spray (owners don't want it employed on a crowded dance floor because some may splash or even miss and hit someone else)
C) Armed Security is also a No Go since according to police they would have to have a special security license
D) Shotgun behind the bar/and employees carrying it is illegal in the state of fl to have a weapon in a business who's primary source of income is alcohol.
E) Since it is illegal to have a weapon inside the owner can't carry.

A vest is a great idea I will start lookin for one immediately
__________________
This year will go down in history as the first year a civilized nation has full gun control, our streets will be safer, our police more effective. The rest of the world will follow our lead into the future." Adolf Hitler 1939.

Sig 229 (.40 cal)
Beretta 92 FS
Beretta PX4 (.40 cal)
Ruger P94TH (.40 cal)
Ruger 10/22
AR 15
Mossberg 500 (12GA) (modified by myself from hunting variant to home defence variant)
Remington 870 (20 GA)
BouncerDan is offline  
Old February 9, 2007, 08:17 AM   #18
Nortonics
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2004
Location: Murderapolis
Posts: 521
Quote:
I am a concealed carry licence holder but as you all know you can not carry into a bar.
In your State maybe, but not in mine. I see that as one place any law abiding CCW holder should always carry within - damn shame your State don't allow it...
__________________
Tom.
Nortonics is offline  
Old February 9, 2007, 11:26 AM   #19
oldbillthundercheif
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2006
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 2,450
Kevlar for everyone!
oldbillthundercheif is offline  
Old February 9, 2007, 03:48 PM   #20
AR15FAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2006
Posts: 179
That is one tough job I could never deal with, you are between a rock and a hard place. But I think getting the vest would be the best protection from a revenge attack, get the best one you can afford, and good luck.
__________________
Use your most powerful weapon first, your brain.....
AR15FAN is offline  
Old February 9, 2007, 04:22 PM   #21
The Real Wyatt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2006
Location: South Central KY
Posts: 339
Not being allowed to carry in a bar is a law that makes no sense at all, especially for the ladies. I wonder what percentage of attacks on women happen late at night whilst walking from the bar to their parked car? My guess is that it'd be significant.

Not that I want drunks wandering around packing heat, mind you. I think the vast majority of permit holders are more responsible than that.
The Real Wyatt is offline  
Old February 9, 2007, 11:13 PM   #22
whip1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 325
A lot of bars around here hire off duty LEO's. They are in uniform, a radio, and have full arresting power. The bouncers handle the small problems, and the LEO handles the bigger ones.
whip1 is offline  
Old February 10, 2007, 11:59 AM   #23
JDSnead
Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2005
Location: Heart of Dixie
Posts: 66
ASP Baton? Or Maglight/Brute?

How about an ASP, or other expanding baton? Or, since most bouncers need/use flashlights to check ID, etc, get the biggest Maglight you can find.

I have a flashlight I bought many years ago called "the Brute." It is a 6 AA cell flashlight that the tubing walls are over 1/2 inch thick! Makes for a less intimidating visual, but is as strong as you can imagine!

I haven't found this flashlight available for years, and there are no markings on it as to maker. If anyone else has seen such a thing, I'd like to get another.
JS
JDSnead is offline  
Old February 10, 2007, 12:22 PM   #24
fixboot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2006
Location: Salem oreGUN
Posts: 230
Maglight, tazer, pepper spray, vest, good size assisted open knife.
__________________
Nothing is more satisfying than a brick of .22, a few empty soda cans and all day to shoot at them..........nothing other than......Hmm...maybe my AK-47 and a bag of apples? DAMMIT who has 7.62x39 on sale right now?
fixboot is offline  
Old February 10, 2007, 06:43 PM   #25
MilitaryPower
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2007
Posts: 5
I got this from packing.org: 790.06(12) Cannot carry in. . .

any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

I interpret that as you could carry a gun as long as you don't go to the bar. JMO.
MilitaryPower is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12769 seconds with 7 queries