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Old February 7, 2007, 11:08 AM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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How many carry an OC spray?

We usually discuss the carry guns. I'm interested in how many carry an OC also? I usually have a little Fox with me.

I found that folks with significant training tend to carry one also as they get hear about the force continuum. Does the average CHL - do that?

Thoughts - why or why not?

Thanks.
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Old February 7, 2007, 11:31 AM   #2
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I learned long ago, when delivering pizzas in college, that if your only tool is a hammer every problem is a nail.

If your only tool is a gun then every problem tends to become a "Lethal Foce" problem. How many times have we all seen threads whose gist was "was I justified in drawing?"

When deliverring pizza I carried a cannister of OC, 4 D-Cell Maglite, Spyderco, 10mm 1911, two spare mags, and running shoes. It was before cell phones were everywhere so I did not have one of those.

Now I tend to carry the same 10mm, or a smaller more compact alternate, reloads, Eickhorn folding knife, OC, and a small tactical flashlight, even if these have to be left in a jacket in the office. No running shoes as I usually need wingtips.

There are plenty of times where there is aminor threat that doesn't warrant a lethal force response. be prepared.
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Old February 7, 2007, 12:08 PM   #3
JDSnead
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Only when walking the dog

I always carry a small revolver in my pocket.
The only time I carry OC spray is when walking my dog past a certain house. I would use OC against a dog attacking my dog, where shooting would be excessive.
Otherwise, if I feel that I am threatened, I keep my hand in my pocket where it's already holding my revolver.
YMMV.
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Old February 7, 2007, 12:12 PM   #4
PaulBk
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Yes

Always. Nice to have options...

-PB
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Old February 7, 2007, 12:35 PM   #5
Musketeer
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When deliverring pizza, as mentioned above, I ran into everything from dogs, to drunks, to an actual car jack attempt. THere are plenty of times, even with a human, where force is allowed under the law but NOT deadly force. In those cases it is good to have an option that allows me to stay out of direct physical contact.
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Old February 7, 2007, 01:20 PM   #6
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The only problem with spray is that if the wind is blowing the wrong way or if you get a shot at the guy but then you end up wrestling with him you could get the stuff on you. I know a person in the sherriffs department that doesnt carry it. He got tired of getting bit by his own spray. He has never had to shoot anyone either. There are those few who seem to be immune to the stuff.

Spray can be a double edged sword also.

I think it is a consideration for those folks who dont carry firearms though. I think that if there were some kind of voluntary training for using the stuff it would benefit folks.

Like you say using the continnum of force OC lets you not escelate it to a higher level. You should try to use the right amount of force to end the threat. Even if you could legally shoot someone I think it is desirable to try and descelate the force needed back to a lower level.

In the police tactics course I had to take for the Homeland Security we got to play with the new pepperball guns. That was the cats jammys. They had a video of one of the deputies volunteering to be the vicitim. This guy was built like a M1 Tank. It took him to his knees. Saw some incident videos where a guy tried to hide behind the wall in a shower stall...lol.

When we were using it outside the wind shifted....I was already moving but I got hit by a little and it lit my fire.
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Old February 7, 2007, 01:41 PM   #7
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As far as I know, it is strictly forbidden in my country. It is not, however, an alternative I repent, for one thing I have allergy driven breathing problems. Go figure how happy I'd be if I sprayed someone and he or the wind carried the irritating stuff on me Worse, what if someone in the street or in the tube sprayed a real or presumed aggressor and the stuff landed on me as well :barf: probably I'd join the party on the attacker's side (kidding).
I'd much take a good impact weapon over spray for less than deadly force.
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Old February 7, 2007, 01:59 PM   #8
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I've bought OC for my wife, mother, and sister. Mainly because they have no interest in carrying a gun and I want them to have some sort of defense.

I keep thinking of getting some OC for myself, but I'm running out of room on the belt. I look like a cop when I walk out of the house with everything hanging off my belt ie. .45 gun in holster, spare mag and holder, knife in pocket, leatherman, cell phone, truck keys. Somethings got to give. Even with my nice Beltman leather belt, my pants are going to fall down with all this stuff.

So to answer your question; Do I carry OC? NO. Should I carry OC? YES.
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Old February 7, 2007, 02:33 PM   #9
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I'd much take a good impact weapon over spray for less than deadly force.
Perhaps it won't be seen as such in court in your country but in the USA a "good impact weapon" will be seen as deadly force unless used by someone, like a police officer, who has recieved specific and documented instruction in how to use that stick, club, baton, ASP, etc. in a less-lethal / incapacitating manner.

I have asthma and have had an indirect experience with OC. My buddy had bought some for his wife and sister. I had advised them to go outside their house, spray it to gage the spread and range, and to come immediately back in. They sprayed and then... stood there just outside the open door commenting on it. I saw the next thing comming a mile away. I told them to come inside and shut the door quick but they were too busy chatting so I immediately went to the opposite side of the room from the open door and openned the patio doors to air out the house. By then I heard the coughing coming from the women and my buddy. The spray had dispersed and made its way back over them and into the house. They came in and shut the door (closing the barn door after the horse had run off...) and I brought wet towells around for them and myself. I didn't get the shot they had but enough came in to bother me.

When a civilian uses OC it is not to aprehend or wrestle with the BG. It is to GET AWAY. If the BG is blind and not touching me he is not going to stop me. That is all I care about.

If you can't put it on your belt or in your pants drop it into your coat pocket.
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Old February 7, 2007, 02:45 PM   #10
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Yes, I do sometimes carry a small (22gram) OC spray with me. It's probably much less likely to get me in trouble with the law if I need to use it.
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Old February 7, 2007, 05:09 PM   #11
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No.

I have relied upon my hands and body so far and it has done me well in these many years. I bought a taser for my wife, I also got her a 6 cell D flashlight the aluminum cased one just in case. A hit over the head wit hthat and you will be a hurting unit. My cousin (A Omaha LEO) recommended it over a baseball bat as it (flashlight) would not be construed as being handy for weapon use. Be careful on what you carry and what you use to defend yourself, too many lawyers out there looking to make a buck off of you.

In the 70s, I was doing drag in a "haunted house" we were "pushing" the last wave of kids out, someone blew up a pepper spray can in a hallway that had doors closed at either end, one guy had a breathing problem and almost died from it. I hate the stuff and just wont use it.

Another scenario: we were at a large mall in Omaha, some Dallas cowboy famous running back was signing footballs, we got in line, up on the next level a gun fight broke out. What would any of you do?

I got my wife and kid behind me so I would take a hit before them and got them out of that vicinity. We left shortly after.
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Old February 7, 2007, 05:40 PM   #12
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I've used OC spray about a half-dozen times. It was very effective in about 50% of the cases. The important things to remember are: #1 Never warn or threaten your opponent with it, as it gives him time to take countermeasures, #2 Always sidestep as soon as you spray, because he is going to attempt to attack the last place that he saw you, #3 It gives you an option from using deadly force, and a possible justification if you show that you exhausted less lethal options, and #4 There are no marks or bruises on the jerk 2 days after the event.
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Old February 7, 2007, 06:47 PM   #13
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You bet I do. A fat 3oz Mace-brand can of 10% Pepper-Foam rides with me at all times. I would rather hose down a rowdy drunken geek than shoot him right off the bat... unless he was armed, of course.

My city should require all locals to carry the stuff and forbid all visiting fraternity drunks from wearing protective eyewear.
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Old February 8, 2007, 01:16 AM   #14
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I almost always have it on me or with me.
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Old February 8, 2007, 01:31 AM   #15
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I carry a small can about 75% of the time
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Old February 8, 2007, 10:27 AM   #16
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I currently do not, but I have been giving it a lot of thought lately. I really need to get a can for the (very) few times I cannot carry a gun.

Is anyone else concerned with what would happen if you had to use your pistol but also had OC? Criminally, I'm sure one would be fine - if you were justified in shooting, that should be that. But when you are getting sued in civil court by the family members of "the victim", isn't it going to be awefully easy for a prosecutor to paint you as a murderer for not just pepper spraying the knife wielding maniac - after all, it wasn't his fault he grew up to be a troubled young man! If you had OC, why did you have to take his client's life?!

I hate playing into these would-be court cases with no precedent, but this one actually concerns me.

Kind of like how a lot of cops don't want to qualify with tasers because it's just one more thing that will be thrown out there when everyone is second guessing their decision to shoot after the fact.
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Old February 8, 2007, 02:26 PM   #17
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I also got her a 6 cell D flashlight the aluminum cased one just in case. A hit over the head wit hthat and you will be a hurting unit. My cousin (A Omaha LEO) recommended it over a baseball bat as it (flashlight) would not be construed as being handy for weapon use.
In any court in the land that will be considerred deadly force. A hit over the head with it may hurt the reciever but may just as likely kill him.

Quote:
In the 70s, I was doing drag in a "haunted house" we were "pushing" the last wave of kids out, someone blew up a pepper spray can in a hallway that had doors closed at either end, one guy had a breathing problem and almost died from it. I hate the stuff and just wont use it.
So a criminal misused a device and as a result you blame the device. If someone had shot another person in that haunted house should all guns then be banned? Do not blame an inanimate object for criminal behaviour and its consequences. If the criminal I hit with OC has asthma that is his problem, not mine. I have used a nationally and LEO accepted generally non-lethal response to crime. If my lungs are that sensitive then I would not use OC as it would be known lethal force to myself.

Quote:
Another scenario: we were at a large mall in Omaha, some Dallas cowboy famous running back was signing footballs, we got in line, up on the next level a gun fight broke out. What would any of you do?
Leave. Neither Pepper Spray or a Gun really matter in this case. It is a gunfight that does not directly involve you. Gun or knife immediatly makes it lethal force. Being on a different level than yourself means there is no reason you should be sticking around. This scenario has nothing to do with OC.

Quote:
Is anyone else concerned with what would happen if you had to use your pistol but also had OC? Criminally, I'm sure one would be fine - if you were justified in shooting, that should be that. But when you are getting sued in civil court by the family members of "the victim", isn't it going to be awefully easy for a prosecutor to paint you as a murderer for not just pepper spraying the knife wielding maniac - after all, it wasn't his fault he grew up to be a troubled young man! If you had OC, why did you have to take his client's life?!
Knife equalls deadly force. Your lawyer can just as easily turn the tables to say you carried the OC as an option to prevent a situation from escalating to a deadly force encounter. The introduction of the knife though brings you past that point though which your expert witnesses should attest to.
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Old February 8, 2007, 03:19 PM   #18
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I do not because I am afraid I may use it when it may not be warranted. I will just stick to my pistol for stopping only deadly force. I know I will not deploy it unless there is no other choice. I cannot honestly say that I could exercise the same self control with pepper spray.
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Old February 8, 2007, 04:06 PM   #19
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Most of the time. Like to have options. The most common threat around here is four-legged (dogs), and while they most assuredly can hurt you, these are domestic animals and most of them don't really have that in mind. A snout full of pepper spray will likely dissuade them in either case.

Oddly enough, since I started carrying OC, I've not had need to use it, although several such occasions prompted the purchase in the first place. Go figure.
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Old February 8, 2007, 05:45 PM   #20
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I do not because I am afraid I may use it when it may not be warranted. I will just stick to my pistol for stopping only deadly force. I know I will not deploy it unless there is no other choice. I cannot honestly say that I could exercise the same self control with pepper spray.
And exactly how do you intend on dealing with non-deadly force encounters? The beligerent drunk who keeps getting in your face and shoving you, even hitting you. Most states do not accept a simple punch in the face as justification for deadly force. Is your intention to "get into it" physically with the attacker risking the possiblty of the gun getting taken or the situation escalating.

It is coorect to show concern over what situations would warant the use of OC. At the same time we deal with the lethal force question by discussing in advacne when and where the gun should be used. The same applies to OC.

Look at it this way though, if you make a mistake with OC (although I think you should be able to easily enough tell a situation where you are in less than lethal physical danger) then the effects of using it last a whopping 2 hours. If you make an error with a gun though... If you are confident in when to use the gun then there is no reason you cannot be confident enough to carry OC.
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Old February 8, 2007, 10:49 PM   #21
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Oc

I sure do. Great stuff once you understand its proper use and limitations.
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Old February 8, 2007, 11:10 PM   #22
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I do not carry it on my person for EDC but it rides in every car, I have had a few situations were you more or less are caught in the car and need to deescalate a situation with out resorting to a DGU. Twice pepper spray in the face has allowed me to get out of what was an escalating situation in one piece with the opponent also getting to go home.
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Old February 9, 2007, 01:09 AM   #23
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Does anyone have any experience with the Kimber lifeact products?

http://www.life-act.com/
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Old February 9, 2007, 01:26 AM   #24
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The Kimber doohickeys consist of two vials of an oily OC substance. They are fired by primers or something, but I don't think they are reloadable.

I like the 10% pepperfoam stuff from Mace because it tends to shoot straighter in the wind and it's sticky and nasty beyond belief. Being downwind of the spray stuff is something I am not anxious to repeat. Ouch.
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Old February 9, 2007, 01:30 PM   #25
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Does anyone have any experience with the Kimber lifeact products?
There's an in-depth article on these in the March issue of S.W.A.T. Magazine, if you're interested.
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