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Old January 31, 2007, 06:03 PM   #1
howard bleach
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Does anyone ever actually fail a CCW permit class?

This question was posed to me and, having never taken one of these classes, I had no answer. I know it varies from state to state but I always assumed this 'class' and the resulting test was mostly a formality, to make sure you could hit a barn at 7 yards.
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Old January 31, 2007, 06:57 PM   #2
paknheat
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A guy in my class failed. He shot a round up into the celing and blew out the hydralics that controled the targets on my side of the range.
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Old January 31, 2007, 07:27 PM   #3
mike83
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I just got mine with no trouble at all. In Kentucky it is made so that someone with very limited firearms experience can pass. You watch a video that is boring as hell take an open book test on the laws and punch 11 holes in a target at 7 yards. Just act like you have a brain, listen to what the instructor say an no problem.
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Old January 31, 2007, 08:02 PM   #4
timothy75
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I think more people should fail as a test you cant fail is not much of a test. I'd go as far as to say people must be able to hit 8 out of 10rds slowfire on a n 8 inch plate at 7 yards or you fail. I think that would honestly improve our cause and force some people to rethink equipment, practice and marksmanship. How could that be a bad thing?
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Old January 31, 2007, 08:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
How could that be a bad thing?
I don't want to start any trouble. Just want to make a point. It could be a bad thing by reducing the number of people who exercise their constitutional right to keep and BEAR arms. According to the founders, there should not even be a test. The anti's work hard enough to take our freedoms away. Let's not give them a hand.
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Old January 31, 2007, 09:04 PM   #6
mete
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I knew of one years ago .The instructors found the guy very careless ,very unsafe ,so they recommended to the judge that he not be issued a permit. Do you really think that careless, irresponsible gun owners help the gun cause ?
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Old January 31, 2007, 09:14 PM   #7
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Never quite said that mete. You said yourself that a bad one got weeded out. Let's ask this... Does the current roster of CCW holders across the country have more, less or the same gun trouble (commiting crime, having accidents, etc.) as the general population? If the answer is more, then lets talk about having a harder test. If the answer is less, then why change anything? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I don't believe I've seen any evidence that it's broke. CCW folks shoot themselves in the groin a lot in your neck of the woods?
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Old January 31, 2007, 09:25 PM   #8
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I think you would have to be incredibly careless and or stupid to fail.

I will never forget my class, i was the youngest there and i was pushing 40 hard myself and most of the people were senior citizens.

At the range when we were getting ready to fire for the first time, the instructor clearly(thru a bullhorn) states "on my command you are to fire ONE round and stop"

When he said fire, one old guy unloaded his mag. It was quite hilarious, i could barely shoot straight after that.
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Old January 31, 2007, 09:26 PM   #9
robc
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timothy75's idea of a harder test seems like a functional idea on the surface. But I gotta ask again... Is there a problem with CCW people now? Do they commit more crime, have more accidents, lose their guns on the bus, shoot good guys by accident, etc. more than the people who don't have a CCW? If the answer is no, then any talk about a harder test is just pandering to the anti crowd. They'll just want an even harder test 18 months later cuz some lady in Winslow Az. shoots the neighbor's dog.
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Old January 31, 2007, 09:29 PM   #10
TexiCali Slim
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Accuracy

Quote:
A guy in my class failed. He shot a round up into the celing and blew out the hydralics that controled the targets on my side of the range.
Ok well that guy Shouldnt have one.
But as far as making smaller targets and such.. Its a Concealed Weapon class, Most situations when you'll apply your CCW will be very close, so what they test is very applicable.
It's not Sniper class.
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Old January 31, 2007, 11:31 PM   #11
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I work with a fellow who's an instructor. It's rare, but it happens. In TX, the class isn't really about proficiency nearly as much as it's about the legal aspects of carrying.

The last class I took, the shooter next to me failed the shooting test but passed on the second try. What kills me is that she couldn't load or operate her gun without help--I wonder who she thinks is going to help her if she's attacked...

Does she practice? She said she hadn't shot since her last CHL class--4 years earlier.
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Old January 31, 2007, 11:51 PM   #12
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I went to a class in TN and there was an older gentleman with some sort of .380 that would jam repeatedly. He couldn't clear the jams himself. It became a big bother because he held up the entire testing process over and over. He even ran out of ammo because he kept losing the bullets on the ground if he did try to clear the gun.

I'm glad he did not get his ccw. He would have wasted his time using a gun for self defense.
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Old February 1, 2007, 12:36 AM   #13
M3Cosmos
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Quote:
9mmsnoopy:
At the range when we were getting ready to fire for the first time, the instructor clearly(thru a bullhorn) states "on my command you are to fire ONE round and stop"
When he said fire, one old guy unloaded his mag. It was quite hilarious, i could barely shoot straight after that.
This same thing happened when I took my test last Saturday. The first time when the instructor said one round, 25% of the people there started unloading. A bunch of guys there had cheap semi-autos that would continuously jam which held everyone up. One guy next to me had never owned a gun before and was borrowing one, so obviously there was another hold up.
We all went through 50rds from 3, 7, 10, 12, 15 yds. We were firing at the standard size silhouette and I believe we were scored on how many we got inside the largest ring on the target. I got 100% You had to get a "70%" to pass, and everyone passed OK.
One girl got an 86 or so, and I saw another in the 70's; everyone passed though.
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Old February 1, 2007, 06:51 AM   #14
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The whole point of a ccw is to defend yourself. If you don't have good training [obviously common] and the mental preperation you're kidding yourself and the gun is nothing but a 'warm blanket' !! I heard the 911 call of a woman who had purchased a gun to protect herself and her daughter. When a BG broke in she became totally hysterical !!! She was unable to use the gun and the operator properly told her not to touch the gun. Fortunately the telephone saved her.It shouldn't be "it's my right to carry a gun" but rather " I'll get the best training so I am prepared if I ever have to use the gun".
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Old February 1, 2007, 08:03 AM   #15
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CCW Class? What's that? lol

No class or test required here. You can get your permit without ever touching a gun as long as you pass the background check. It seems to work well and I'm not aware of any problems.

I imagine most people serious about self defense get training, and most who aren't serious end up leaving their gun safely at home once the novelty wears off.
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Old February 1, 2007, 08:19 AM   #16
Al Norris
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I suppose, I'm not gonna make any friends here...

Yes, it is our right to keep and bear arms. But even the Founders knew that it was only those that were "well regulated" that were the bulwark of defense. Here, "well regulated" means not only being familiar with the manual of arms, but competent marksmen, also.

In the legal climate of todays USA, we have to have a permission slip from Big Brother in order to carry concealed. Part of the requirement of obtaining that permission, is training. Some States require more training than others.

So I'm kinda split on this. On the one hand, it would be better overall to have more people armed - The more people armed, the less fear of guns in the general population. One the other hand, armed but untrained is a recipe for disaster.

The other part of the equation is the cost of effective training. While most places have a darn good regimen, they are not cheap. (They are in fact geared to make money. Sometimes, lots of money. I'm not against that... I'm just saying...) And once we institute some type of formal training, where does it end?

Currently, most Legislators have not mandated yearly qualifications. But don't for a moment think that some one of them haven't given the idea a thought or two. After all, we require our police to qualify, at a minimum of once yearly, don't we? Then why not us?

Once we begin to really think of training and passing or failing the class, then the rest must be thought of also. To think you're trained after a brief 1 day class (if that), is pure folly.

Just something to think about...
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Old February 1, 2007, 09:17 AM   #17
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Had two old-timers from "the Bayou" (wherever that is), that failed the written test TWICE. They simply could NOT get it out of their heads that you can't shoot a fleeing suspect. Also, they thought that if you shot a guy outside your door trying to run away, if you drag him into your house, it's legal. The instructor was cool about it, he went over the exam and allowed them to repeat it until they passed.

These guys were STUPID. They also landed about 70% on the silouette (-sp) at 7 yards. They were shooting .22 revolvers with 8" barrels.

These were the same guys who saw my fiance and I shooting 1911's, and asked her if she wanted to trade pistols with them! They said, "'Dis-here'll be alot easier ta' shoot 'dan dat big-ole' gun yer' shootin'!" (My fiance was shooting her father's custom-made Wilson Combat 1911 match pistol. Remember, also, SHE taught ME how to shoot!) My fiance quickly gutted out the 9-ring at 15 yards on her Wilson and walked away. Awfully "big" of her, in my opinion...

Never underestimate the sheer and utter stupidity of the masses. Warnings on circular saws advising not to take the safety-bar off? Those are there for a REASON. People will surprise you at how stupid they can be.
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Old February 1, 2007, 09:50 AM   #18
LubeckTech
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There does have to be a pass fail written and marksmanship test like hit a 8" target 8 out of 10 at 7 yards and there needs to be a written test (not open book) demonstrating understanding of 5 - 10 points of law in a shoot/no shoot question format as a "final". Just showing up and taking a cousre is not enough for one simple reason: we as gun owners are under constant siege even where ccw is allowed the antigun faction is trying to contest it and they dont need more ammunition so to speak. If everyone always passes and they can find some dufas who couldn't hit a cow in the tit with a tin cup carrying it would provide much sauce for the goose.
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Old February 1, 2007, 10:30 AM   #19
Glenn E. Meyer
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I know of instructors who have quashed the application of folks who have shown a little too much 'blood lust' in carrying the gun. They felt they could not certify them.

In my first class, I also did see a guy shoot down the rig in an indoor range. He brought some fancy SW semi - custom job - with handloads. Then he shot the pulley system and claim the barrel or load gave the bullet a curve to hit the rig.

Last weekend, I took a family member to the range for a first shooting experience. Said person shot very well for the first and shot the center out of a B27 with a 38 SPL snubbie at 4 yards (a start distance to get confidence) and did equally well with a Glock 19. Asked me if that was good performance. I said - Look at the ceiling.
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Old February 1, 2007, 11:26 AM   #20
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I must confess, I too have shot the rig at the indoor range. However, my shot broke the pulley string at the VERY back of the range (25 yards), and I was shooting head shots at 7 yards at the time.

Random accident? Sure. Act of stupidity? Hardly. Rangemaster stopped the range, tied the string, and we were all shooting again within 30 seconds.

Still, shooting straight up to shoot out the portion of the rig right in front of you is pretty bone-headed. And funny.
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Old February 1, 2007, 11:38 AM   #21
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At an indoor range, they had a massive metal clamp that held the target. With a B-27, it came down so low as to touch the head of the silouette.

I was shooting with my off hand - only using one hand and trying to practice a Mozambique, IIRC. I shot too high and hit the bottom of the clamp. There was a splash of sparks and the bullet or fragment cut the target in half on a diagonal from the top of the head. Half fluttered to the floor. The other half caught fire on the edges. The guy next to me wanted to know what kind of round of I was shooting. Probably thought it was the new ExtremeMagnoFlameBuster round.

Later the range changed out this big ol' clamp. I guess it was too exciting.
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Old February 1, 2007, 04:45 PM   #22
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Some people really should not even be able to own a gun much less a CHL. I had one lady next to me that accidentally shot the floor right in front of her when it was cease fire. She got chewed out really bad but I don't know if she failed or pass the class.


Its really hard to fail the course unless your clueless or blind. I shot a 149 out of 150 on the shooting test that was on a freezing rainy day and scored a 98 on the classroom exam without paying much attention.
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Old February 1, 2007, 05:24 PM   #23
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I know I'll catch heat for this but here goes MHO.
I don't think there should be classes because I don't think there should be permits. It's a right, not a privilege. Do I think untrained folks should be carrying? Yes I do. Do I think there should be stiff penalties for using a gun carelessly? Yes I do.
BTW I also think they should get rid of all safety labels on consumer products as well as the ability to bring a lawsuit because you're too stupid to realize you can't use the electric hair dryer in the shower. Time to thin the herd.



Also, yes I understand that innocent people will be harmed, killed and mutilated by unknowing dolts but this nanny state, pc, bs has got to stop. The "establishment" can't protect you from everything nor should they.
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Old February 1, 2007, 05:37 PM   #24
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It's been a long time

since I took the class the 1st time. Just recently finished my 3rd renewal. But when I took the class the 1st time, the instructors ( husband & wife ), made it clear at the beginnig of the class, that everyone was going to pass. There was a very elderly lady in the class. She had a very old 38 snub. At the range, we shot two at a time, side by side. Then scored the target of the person next to you. This old lady couldn't hit a barn from the inside. No way her score was going to be high enough to pass. But the instructor jumped in when she was done & said HE was gonna score her target. He got up real close, so it would be hard to see what he was doing. But I could see he was punching holes in her target with a ballpoint pin, so her score would be high enough to pass.
Personally I think that was a good thing. She has a right to protect herself. But she sure needed to get in some range time.
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Old February 1, 2007, 05:44 PM   #25
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"I went to a class in TN and there was an older gentleman with some sort of .380 that would jam repeatedly"


Hmmmmm, my experiance tells me he might have had a walther ppk/s.
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