The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 23, 2007, 01:54 PM   #1
Check-Mate
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 13
Check-Mate Magazines

Hello everyone! Let me introduce myself, my name is Jackie and I work for Check-Mate Industries doing Business Development. The owners of Check-Mate have decided that the best way to improve all of our product line is to listen to what the men and women who use our magazines everyday have to say. Please let us know what you think of our magazines, any likes or dislikes. The information you give us will only help us to make a better magazine for you.
I will be happy to answer any questions I can, however please understand I am only one person and I will not be able to respond to everything everyday.
One magazine we are very interested in getting feed back from is our new 9mm.
As I’m sure all of you know, in 2003-2004 Check-Mate’s reputation for the 9mm magazine has been less then satisfactory. Even though the problem was fixed and about 1.5 million new magazines have been shipped with no reported failures, there is still a common belief among many; that the CMI 9mm magazines are still bad. I would like to try and lay this belief to rest by answer any question you have about the 9mm and addressing exactly what problems where causing the magazines to fail.
Check-Mate is offline  
Old January 23, 2007, 02:28 PM   #2
rellascout
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2004
Posts: 2,435
From what I was told my friends and associates in the military it had a lot to do with Sand.

Welcome to the forum. Good Luck.

By the way is Checkmate the current manufacturer of mags for the Sig GSR 1911s.
rellascout is offline  
Old January 23, 2007, 03:33 PM   #3
Check-Mate
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 13
Rellascout- Thank you for the support.

You are correct about the sand being the cause for the 9mm’s malfunction. The government’s specifications for the magazines called for us to use a heavy phosphate finish. Unfortunately the sand in Iraq is unlike any around here; it is so fine it is actually a lot like talcum powder which easily embedded within the phosphate finish. We did a number of tests and concluded that the dry film lubricant used today would be a much smoother finish reducing any friction caused by the sand.

In regards to your question: “is Checkmate the current manufacturer of mags for the Sig GSR 1911s?”

-Yes. We are currently supplying Sig with the .45caliber mags used for the GSR 1911.
Check-Mate is offline  
Old January 23, 2007, 03:38 PM   #4
rellascout
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2004
Posts: 2,435
Thanks for your fast replies.

I think that it will take time to remove the negative feeling towards checkmate mags as a result of the sand issue. The more you get out into the market the better you will be. I own a 92FS and a few 1911's if you want to throw a few my way for testing.

People tend to complain about what doesn't work not sing the praises of what does. Again good luck with your efforts.
rellascout is offline  
Old January 23, 2007, 03:45 PM   #5
stealthmode
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2004
Posts: 148
Check-mate

do you sell the M14 mag bodies or just the complete mag?
stealthmode is offline  
Old January 23, 2007, 04:09 PM   #6
Logs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 1999
Location: BLUEGRASS STATE KY USA
Posts: 1,566
I bought a bunch of Checkmate mags at a Gun Show a while back for my Beretta 92. I love them and never had a problem. I think they are great mags and they tend to be less $$$ than the factory.

FYI, I don't play in the sand much in KY.

WELCOME
Logs is offline  
Old January 23, 2007, 04:33 PM   #7
theberettaman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2001
Location: N.E. Oklahoma
Posts: 496
It's one thing to try and rebuild a companys reputation and it is not easy in such a hated and grossly misunderstood industry like the gun industry.
But what about the reputation of the gun company that was trashed by the infereior M9 products you supplied?(but we can always lay it back on the govt. with "we were just following orders)
Like the old saying goes: "now where do I go to get my reputation back".
I do wish you luck but there are many folks out there that fortunatly wont trust the product anymore.

(yeah,you can tell by my membername that CMI doesn't have much of a following in the circles i run in)
theberettaman is offline  
Old January 23, 2007, 07:08 PM   #8
FotoTomas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2002
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 134
Well I have a different opinion. First off I have had many CMI M9 magazines in the past and used them for competition in my 92 series Bereta pistols. I found them to be great choices for my purpose and in some cases a better choice. The steel folded floorplate is superior when running and gunning in a match venue with concrete floors.



I did not like the rough phosphate finish on the original CMI mags I had. They still worked great but then I was not in the MidEast. The last pair I purchased were much nicer. I am quite happy with the new ones and would not hesitate to carry them on duty IF they had the magazine disconnect slot my Beretta requires. If I were in the sandbox with a M9 then I would be very hesitant to carry one unless it was the new specification models coming into service.

I have several Beretta marked military magazines with a rougher parkerized type finish. I have been advised by friends that have served in both the "stan" and Iraq that the original Beretta marked magazines with rough finishes also had sand problems. Not as many due to limited numbers in theater. Even so I think Checkmate has a fair defense. They made magazines to Govt specification and the spec was a bad idea in MidEast desert conditions. It might well have cost some lives. That has changed though and the new spec is quite a bit improved and serviciable.

Currently I only have a special magazine disconnect model Beretta 92 and the military Beretta and CMI magazines I have will not work. If another standard 92 or M9 crosses my path then I am sure the CMI magazines will provide good service.

In case any one wants to know the half moon notch located on the bottom right side of some Beretta magazines is NOT the notch I am referring to. The Magazine disconnet is located on the upper right side. I have a photo to show it:

FotoTomas is offline  
Old January 23, 2007, 09:04 PM   #9
ohen cepel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 1999
Location: Where they send me
Posts: 1,013
I had Check Mate mags while I was in Korea. Not much sand there.

They simply didn't work reliably, only use I found for them was to teach a new shooter clearing drills. They were so bad that I trashed all of them and ordered new ones. I would usually try to give unwanted gear to another command but they were so crappy that I made sure they were destroyed.

I understand your defense that you were doing what you were asked to do with the coating. However, the mags seemed out of spec in many ways and were just cheap.

I can't imagine a situation where I would ever be willing to go into harms way with anything marked Check Mate now. I'll buy mags with my own money rather than carry yours or allow my soldiers to carry them.

Sorry if I'm harsh, but you asked.
__________________
He who dares wins.

NRA Life Benefactor Member
ohen cepel is offline  
Old January 23, 2007, 09:26 PM   #10
Willy T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 14, 2006
Location: Alaska
Posts: 526
I understand fron the SIG site alot of members are having reported problems with them on the GSRs. why fool with crap?
Willy T is offline  
Old January 23, 2007, 09:53 PM   #11
Black_Talon
Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2001
Location: Peoples Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 99
Do you sell direct to the public?
Black_Talon is offline  
Old January 24, 2007, 06:38 AM   #12
Rinspeed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2000
Posts: 1,109
I agree Jackie your reputation is in the pits. To help you out with this situatuion just send me four 1911 mags for T&E and I will do what I can.
Rinspeed is offline  
Old January 24, 2007, 10:21 AM   #13
Check-Mate
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 13
RellaScout- you couldn’t be more right. The issue regarding the 9mm is one that will continue to be a sore subject for a number of people and as “theBerettaman” has shown there are a number of parties that were negatively affected by the magazines. I might be able to get you some samples…

TheBerettaman- if it seems I am trying to push all of the responsibility for the problems that occurred onto the government, this is not my intention at all. No one anticipated the effects this particular type of sand was going to have on the magazines when mixed with the phosphate finish. But the truth is that the magazines were made to the technical data package. This is the same data package that Beretta was making their magazines to when they had the government contract; the only difference was in the finish. The government decided they wanted a more corrosion resistant finish then the black oxide; this is why the specifications called for the phosphate finish.
When the malfunctioning magazines were sent back to us, nineteen magazines were test fired. The mags were fired in all attitudes, by that I mean 90 degrees left and 180 degrees (upside down). They were fired rapidly and in single burst, and a number of other ways. We could not recreate the problems. It wasn’t until Picatinny Arsenal brought back samples of the sand from Iraq and set up a test chamber were we then able to understand what was causing the magazines to fail.
It was my understanding that any doubt that was cast regarding the quality and reliability of Beretta was lifted once it was discovered that it was the magazines not the gun responsible for the malfunctions. CMI considers Beretta to be one of our most highly respected customers. Beretta is a beautifully built and reliable gun and if you were to ask me or anyone I work with for a list of top gun manufacturers, Beretta will always make the cut.

Since the early 80’s CMI has worked with Beretta USA as one of their OEM’s trying to supply them with quality magazines and in years to come that business with continue, hopefully on an even more extensive level. I only hope that some day our magazines can sit at such a superior level that even your heart will beat a little faster with excitement when you pull the trigger.

I greatly respect you opinion and you honest and I encourage you to please write again.

Stealthmode- we do have just the M14 mag bodies, what are you looking for exactly? And how many?

FotoTomas- I am delighted to hear of your satisfaction with our mags, especially with our patented floorplate. I was wondering if you could elaborate on the magazines disconnect slot you are referring to, this could be an easy adjustment for us to make.

Ohen cepel- don’t worry about being to harsh, being a women in this industry I need to have a thick skin. I am interested in hearing more about the problems you encountered with your magazines. Just so I can understand exactly which mags you are refuring to you I have a few questions…. Which mag are you talking about… the .45, M9 or the M14? Also when did you have this problem? Was it recently? And how did you know it was a check-mate mag? I respect your opinion and understand you dislike for check-mate as a result of your experience. The whole point of me doing this is to understand what is how we can make are mags better for guys like you. When you are dealing with something that could result in life or death it needs to be right! So I ask everyone reading this to let it out, let me know what you really think.

Willy T- We only just recently started to manufacture the .45 for Sig. in fact it wasn’t until august that are mags start to circulate. There are a few other suppliers for this magazine. So I’m not sure if the magazine you have is ours or another suppliers but I would be happy to send out a sample to you, so that you can see the quality of our .45 mags. And compare.

Black Talon- We do not sell directly to the public. The reason for this; is we want to avoid the sales of 1 or 2 mags. It really would be coast effective for us or you to buy directly from us. I only recommend buying directly if you are looking to purchase a large number. (50 or more)

Jeffg- I think we can work something out…..


Check-mate has no problems sending out samples. Provided recipients are willing to let CMI and everyone else know what they think about the mags.
**But please understand that I will not be able to send out sample to everyone.***

Last edited by Check-Mate; January 24, 2007 at 01:51 PM.
Check-Mate is offline  
Old January 24, 2007, 10:33 AM   #14
RevolverLover
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2004
Posts: 1,682
I would be happy to test out 4 of your 1911 mags with my new 1911 and report how well they function.
__________________
All I ever seem to read on this Internet is a bunch of "I heard..." or "I read..." sort of stuff.

"One test = 1,000 expert opinions." -Art Eatman
RevolverLover is offline  
Old January 24, 2007, 10:51 AM   #15
rellascout
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2004
Posts: 2,435
Great response. I think that this type of one on one interaction can only help.

I think that TheBerettaman illustrated some of the mind set that you will encounter.

My brother carried a the M9 with Checkmates in Iraq as he rolled into Baghdad. He did not have any issues with them but he luckly did not have to resort to using his side arm. I will be honest I sent him mecgar & factory mags when I heard there were issues with the checkmates.

It is good that you are supplying 1911 mags to Sig. The Novaks they were shipping seemed to have issues. There were quiet a few reports of mag related issues with the Novaks.

Again Good luck and thanks for the feedback.
rellascout is offline  
Old January 24, 2007, 12:53 PM   #16
Logs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 1999
Location: BLUEGRASS STATE KY USA
Posts: 1,566
Since I have already tested the M9 mags, I would be happy to try your 1911's also.

I would be happy to do testing for you.

Mike
Logs is offline  
Old January 24, 2007, 02:27 PM   #17
ohen cepel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 1999
Location: Where they send me
Posts: 1,013
It would have been about 4-5 years ago. Only dealt with 9mm Beretta mags.

Mags were clearly marked Check-Mate.

The coating may have been an issue, however, they seemed out of spec in regards to the baseplates (wouldn't fit into the weapons) and the feed lips seemed to be out of spec. If they fit into the weapon they wouldn't feed more than 4-5 rounds (of FMJ!) before it jammed up.

The Check-Mates were id'ed as the problem and pitched. The rest of the mags had few if any feed issues.
__________________
He who dares wins.

NRA Life Benefactor Member
ohen cepel is offline  
Old January 24, 2007, 03:45 PM   #18
Check-Mate
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 13
Ohen Cepel- OK. I took some time to look into the problems you had; I couldn’t find any information from 4 or 5 years ago regarding the problems you described. I will however continue to look into it and get back to you as soon as I find something out.

****Samples- it was suggested that I create a new thread just for those of you interested in obtaining Check-Mate sample magazines, once it is set up I will start collecting information and sending out samples. ****
Check-Mate is offline  
Old January 24, 2007, 10:21 PM   #19
jlwman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 202
I have simply stayed away from CM mags just because I have heard bad things about them not functioning correctly in Beretta pistols. That's the pistol I shoot the most and the one I buy the most products for. It's also the only one that I don't have more than two mags for. People will always tell the bad but not necessarily the good. If CM starts getting better reviews or makes some changes to improve their product, I would love to hear what those who try the new mags say and I would love to see the difference too. Make some changes, let me try out a new improved mag and I would have no problem telling you my experiences (good or bad). Change won't happen without everyones comments and help.

Just my rambling .02
jlwman is offline  
Old January 25, 2007, 12:16 AM   #20
sleepyweasel
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2007
Posts: 1
Open mind on mags.

I have a beretta 92fs. I use beretta brand mags, and I also have a pro-mag brand magazine. I haven't had any problems with either brand of mags. I spend most of my time on www.berettaforum.net , and almost everyone there says the check-mate mags aren't good. They also dont like the pro-mag brand mags either. If you are willing to send a sample mag or two to me I would love to put them through their paces and report on them to the others on that forum. So if you are able to get some samples send some my way. email me at kjohnson @ alldial.net

Thanks in advance
sleepyweasel is offline  
Old January 25, 2007, 12:23 AM   #21
STLRN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 1,163
Checkmate

I used your current line of M9 mags, with the smooth finish, during my last tour in Iraq. They work fine, none of the problems your mags caused in my 03 visit to Iraq.

I would agree that a base plate similar to the Beretta one needs to be added. The lack of weight in bottom sometimes causes the feed end to plant while doing a speed reload while moving. Also, when you add a lanyard to the pistol, you need a little bit of an extension on the bottom to seat in case the lanyard is in a weird position while loading.
__________________
God truly fights on the side with the best artillery
STLRN is offline  
Old January 25, 2007, 05:00 AM   #22
otomik
Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2002
Location: Grove City, Ohio
Posts: 94
so Checkmate lost it's sweet government contract for M9s and ruined the GSR so bad that SIG had to reintroduce it as the GSR Revolution to avoid the bad reputation checkmate gave it.

Checkmate, don't try to buy your reputation back in some sad act of desperation.

I'd buy Mecgars, they have 17 (flat metal plate similar to checkmate) and 18 round (small bumper-type baseplate) mags for the Beretta 92 series. They work great and have a slick black oxide coat or something.

this is the last place i bought mecgars from:
http://www.bigstatedist.com/
__________________
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face -- forever." -George Orwell, 1984
otomik is offline  
Old January 25, 2007, 09:26 AM   #23
rellascout
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2004
Posts: 2,435
Otomik you should get your facts straight.

The original GSR came with Novak/Act mags. Checkmate mag are currently being shipped with the GSR revolution.

Checkmate had nothing to do with the original GSR.

I agree that Mecgars are great mags but your other statements have no basis in truth.
rellascout is offline  
Old January 25, 2007, 10:28 AM   #24
Check-Mate
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 13
STLRN-I am going to run your comments about the base plate past our engineers, and find out what they think.

Otomik-I can not comment at this time…..
Other then to say; All of your information is incorrect
With the exception that Edoardo does make a good product.
Check-Mate is offline  
Old January 25, 2007, 01:47 PM   #25
Viper1357
Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 86
Hello, I am new to this forum, but not to firearms, shooting, collecting, or to this issue with CMI mags or many other manufacturing companies that have had issues with custom design, Mil-Spec, or any other.

I have talked privately with a member or two on this board and others, and we agree that while there may well have been some issues with the (past CMI) magazines in question whether civilian or military use, it seems that a company that is willing to open up (on an open forum) to the general gun and accessory purchasing community asking for our feedback on their product is something we should be thankful for after the countless threads posted by many who can't get an email or phone call returned from other supposedly 'well reputed' manufacturing companies.

For those of you who do not work in a manufacturing company, you have no idea of the pressures to get a product to a customer on time, at the acceptable quality level (meaning the customers specification), and at the proper cost. Whether it's a military contract, consumer distribution, whatever, there are there are specs sent in by the "Purchaser", a design review by the manufacturer, and (lot's of stuff inbetween) and you get the final product. It is tested per specs, and eventually sent completed. Then if the product fails or has issues, (like in this case) everyone is quick to blame the manufacturer, without the facts of the whole process of how the original product was designed, and approved by the final purchaser. There will always be bad runs or batches from time to time in parts manufacturing, but in many cases the design itself can be flawed, or not all things were considered until after the final product was in use. Take the early M16 for example, or even 'wooden stock rot' of the M14 in the jungles of Vietnam. They were to spec, but still failed. There are countless other examples.

I am not taking a stand either way on someones viewpoint on how they want to feel about a product they do or do not want to buy or use, but sometimes facts are incomplete and replaced by rumor or opinion. Here is a company that is actually giving us the opportunity to let them know how we feel about their improved product from all aspects of consumer testing so they can improve not only future products but also their reputation as well. Time will tell if their products will meet our needs through their improvements, but I personally find it a refreshing approach and applaud such an effort when they wouldn't even have to do it. It's time to move forward.
.

Last edited by Viper1357; January 25, 2007 at 05:08 PM. Reason: spelling, grammer
Viper1357 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13507 seconds with 7 queries