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Old January 13, 2007, 06:34 AM   #1
Hammer It
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A Pre-War S&W Revolver thread Dedication

Hello
I have a fondness for Early Pre World War II S&W revolver's. I Have Three at this time and all exhibit the same quality in fit and finish. Those that have them know what I am speaking of, as they were made during a time Period when S&W employed fitter's and Gun smith's not Bean counters or assembly line retro Part assemblers. These are the revolver's that built the S&W reputation for durability and quality, so let's see those Pre-War S&W revolvers here. Hammer It.


The First series K-22 Outdoorsman. Circa. 1936









The S&W Regulation Police .32 Long I Frame revolver Shipped Dec. 1925 To Harry Anderson Chief Of Police, Evansville, Indiana daily carried in Motorcycle Patrol with special order 3-1/4" Barrel and Factory Mother of Pearl grips . The side Plate is engraved from the Factory and this revolver was presented to Chief Anserson when he took Office in 1925.










My Newest addition. This is a second series .455 Mark II Hand Eject. It shipped May of 1916 to The Remington Export facility in New York City, then was exported to England to the Brits. for War time use. Factory set of Micro adjustable sights added later with King front base. This revolver was also a factory converted to .45 Colt Caliber, the adjustable sights were added at that time. Grips are original and Pencil marked with the guns serial number.








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Old January 13, 2007, 09:51 AM   #2
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You know, I would never buy a revolver like the one in your top 2 photographs.

It's simply too beautiful to shoot, and I wouldn't be able to control the compulsion to shoot it.

Damn that's a beautiful gun.
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Old January 13, 2007, 10:40 AM   #3
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Hey Mike
Thank's for the Kind Word's But I sure am No S&W Collector Purist Type. The Outdoorsman K-22 Shown is Just Like any other S&W I own, It gets shot often and well cared for when I am done, by cleaning and detailing them to the max. None of mine are Safe queens, Because I have Grown to fully enjoy the Fine Revolver's S&W makes and let my Heirs worry about what it will be worth when my Toes Curl.. last I Knew You Can't take em with you, and If I was worried about a future Investment, as some say their Prize S&W's are to be considered, I Guess would place the Money in my 401 rather than buy S&W wheel guns that I enjoy. I Have fired Well over 500 Rounds through that Outdoorman K-22 shown and can tell you it is the smoothest most accurate revolver I have ever Picked up. I can't imagine why anyone would own a fine revolver Like this and not use it or enjoy Target practice with it This very same K-22 Outdoorsman revolver shown is the one that my wife Picked out of my Gun Safe, Passing up 5 Other K-22's I have to qualify with when becoming a New Range member at our Local Target shooting Range. It drew Lot's ot Looks that day, and I even offered it to Three guy's that really liked the Looks of it to shoot, But they Politely refused, and why I will never know. When she stepped up to the Line I was Proud of her using it as she sunk em all in the Ten ring with ease, Just Like D.B. Wesson would have wanted anyone to do with his Famous K-22. I could Never understand why anyone would buy a top quality S&W Hand Gun and not enjoy shooting it. To me, That would be Like having a 1968 Chevrolet Corvette with a Big Block 427 Tri-Power Under the Hood, with a Borg Warner 4 Speed Trans. and Never running it through the Gears to feel the Massive Horse Power suck you back in the seat.. Why have it if you Can't enjoy it ? Hammer It.
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Old January 13, 2007, 11:51 AM   #4
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Excellent guns and gteat photos!
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Old January 14, 2007, 01:18 AM   #5
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Here's my Pre War HD. SN 502XXX dates from around 1936-37. After 70 years it shows a little age (factory re finished in october of '46) but it is still very accurate.





20 yard group with S&B Ammo fired offhand

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Old January 14, 2007, 06:48 AM   #6
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My favourite is the M & P (I don't own one though)

Pre War M&P

your regulation police and the terrier you didn't show in this thread would make second place.

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Old January 14, 2007, 02:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
I could Never understand why anyone would buy a top quality S&W Hand Gun and not enjoy shooting it
Amen. I feel identically regarding my small but escalating arms collection, be they Colts, S&W's, Dan Wesson's, rifles or shotguns. I purchased a LNIB Colt Python several months ago, and transported it to the range within 2 days........there was absolutely no thought given that its prior life as a safe queen was to continue. A soon to arrive Colt Trooper V will soon escape the dark confines of steel for the great outdoors. Range time only plants a desire for back-up's......................ck
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Old January 14, 2007, 03:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
I could Never understand why anyone would buy a top quality S&W Hand Gun and not enjoy shooting it
Amen. I feel identically regarding my small but escalating arms collection, be they Colts, S&W's, Dan Wesson's, rifles or shotguns. I purchased a LNIB Colt Python several months ago, and transported it to the range within 2 days........there was absolutely no thought given that its prior life as a safe queen was to continue. A soon to arrive Colt Trooper V will soon escape the dark confines of steel for the great outdoors. Range time only plants a desire for back-up's......................ck
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Old January 15, 2007, 10:07 AM   #9
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Finding out a Revolver's History path is fun and Interesting

Hello
I have Taken a deep Interest in Tracking a revolver's roots if at all Possible on these Older Pre-War revolvers. So Far Two out of Three has netted me some very Neat information. To start with the Nickel finish S&W RegulationPolice was kind of Easy to Trace. It came to me with the side Plate engraved in taht it's owner was a Chief of Police for The Evansville, Indiana Police Department back in 1927. I Later found out that this revolver indeed shipped directly to the Evansville, Indiana Police Department in December 1926 and apparently was a gift for the newly elected police Chief Harry Anderson upon him taking the Elected Position. It has an odd 3-1/4" Barrel Length, and Later I found the reason for this was Chief Anderson was in charge of a Motor Cycle Brigade Back then, as an experiment for the Evansville, Indiana Police Department. I E-mailed the Evansville, Indiana Police Department and asked Sergeant Hubbard what he could tell me about The Previous Chief Harry Anderson and he Promptly E-mailed me back with the copy and Paste Version reply below. he also sent me a very nice Evansville, Police Uniform Patch and Tie Tack shown as well. I hope you enjoy the History roots of this Daily Carry revolver the Chief had back then, and here are the Two responses I received from Sergeant Hubbard.


Here is the historical information on Harry Anderson with the Evansville Police Department. He served as Chief from 1926 to 1928.

If I can be of any other assistance, please let me know.

Sgt.Richard Hubbard

In March 1926, Nolte was hospitalized with a nervous breakdown and voluntarily took a demotion to detective, stepping down as chief in favor of Harry Anderson on March 29, 1926. Nolte continued as a member of the department until his retirement in 1931. Nolte died in 1933. Nolte's 3-month term as chief was the shortest in the history of the police department.

Harry Anderson


Harry Anderson, the 23rd chief of police, was born in Warrick County. He became active in the Republican Party. He joined the department on November 24, 1916. Prior to joining the department, Anderson worked as a bartender. He was promoted to motorcycleman on January 7, 1918. Anderson was a member of the Evansville Police Relief Association committee that published the book "A Souvenir History of the Evansville Police Department" in 1918.


In 1919, Anderson resigned and became a car salesman. In January 1921, County Clerk Frank Grange appointed Anderson a deputy in the county clerk's office. When the Republicans took control of city hall in January 1926 Mayor Herbert Males appointed William Nolte as his choice to replace Democrat-appointed Ira Wiltshire in the chief's position. After 3 months in the chief's office, Nolte suffered a nervous breakdown and took a voluntary demotion to detective. Anderson returned to the police department after an absence of 7 years as Mayor Males's choice to replace Nolte in the chief's position.


Anderson remained Chief of Police for 33 months. The City Council launched impeachment proceedings against Chief Anderson, License Inspector Benjamin Bartlett, and members of the Board of Public Safety in September 1928. In the 1928 county elections, he was elected county clerk. In late December 1928, Anderson submitted his resignation as chief. The text of Chief Anderson's letter of resignation read as follows:


"Honorable Herbert Males and Board of Safety. Having been elected Clerk of the Vanderburgh Circuit Court the past election and as this term of office begins January first, I hereby tender my resignation as superintendent of the police department to take effect January 1, 1929."


Chief of Detectives Edward Sutheimer was appointed to fill the chief's position for the remaining year of Mayor Males' administration.




This should help you out some more.

When Anderson resigned, he had served a total of 6 years as a member of the police department. The department's 8-year experiment with a mounted patrol began in 1927 during Chief Anderson's administration. Anderson ran for county clerk again in the election of 1932. The Roosevelt-Democratic landslide of 1932 buried Anderson, like his fellow Republicans. After losing the election, he returned to the trade that he had practiced before joining the police department in 1916, working as a bartender. In 1935, Anderson became a milkman. Later in life, he bought a dairy farm in Warrick County. After failing to make that enterprise profitable, he sold it. Anderson then moved back to Evansville, living at 209 First Avenue. He was appointed a Vanderburgh County deputy sheriff. He served as a guard at the Evansville Waterworks during World War II. In 1945 he moved to 26 East Chandler. He died on December 12, 1946. His wife’s name was Bertha and he had one brother whom lived in California.










The second Pre-War revolver I have started a History Trace is on my .455 Mark II. I contacted the Ower before me, and asked him to Please go back and see if he could find anything out about it's History Path, as I had discovered it had a Proof Mark that meant it was Non Government Property and this could only mean the guy that had carried the weapon to War took it home. I was delighted to learn this revolver was one of the smaller Quantities that got exported to Canada for the R.C.A.F. Back in 1916. Below you will see a copy and Paste version of the pprevious owners findings about this revolver. After I learned this, I looked into the History of the R.C.A.F. and discovered it was short Lived back in World War I as only Two years. Apparently England did not want to import Canadians to fight her War so the R.C.A.F. was abandoned. It amazes me, that this revolver did service in that short time span and was kept by the Pilot that trusted his Life with it. I further amazed me to sit here thinking back in that time span Pilots had nothing but a Tarp covered Plain to fly Bi-Plane at that with Zero protection compared to today's fighter Jet's. I hope you find this as Interesting as I did, and one never knows who or where an old Revolver may have been or done in it's History path unless it is researched. Regards, Hammer It.


Hello
I went back to the dealer I got that big .455 from in an effort to come up with more history if possible.Everything he told me isn't written in stone as he got the history passed down from the family he bought it from.Having said that I will add that he is the dealer of choice up here for estate buys because he's fair and honest. He told me that your old Smith was indeed a Canadian revolver from the WW 1 era. All else he could say was that he had gotten it from a family who was very private, but who had a son in New Hampshire who joined the RCAF in the first days of War One and was in Canada for pilot training. He was issued the pistol there and spent some time in France before the end of the war. Apparently he went in the RCAF early in the war but this was the second revolver he was issued and it was converted, unlike his first which was truly a 455, to .45 Colt after it was issued at Smith & Wesson by the pilot's family who were afraid that he would have trouble with what they felt was the Anemic .455 Webley round. I asked the dealer if he could fix it to let me speak with the family and he said he wouldn't promise but he would try. He did tell me that he was willing to sell me the revolver at exactly what he paid the family for it, both because I was a customer and because they expressed a wish that the old Smith get in the hands of someone who would appreciate it. I assured him that the new owner was a man who already appreciated it. If I get anything more I'll email you. Looks to me as if that Smith has come full circle from a warrior to another warrior who respects what he has.
Use it in good fortune.

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Old January 15, 2007, 03:42 PM   #10
Peter M. Eick
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Here are a bunch of pre-numbered and pre-war (not all of them unfortunately) N frames. Next time I reshoot the picture I will sort by pre-war.
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Old January 15, 2007, 04:17 PM   #11
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I think I'm gonna be sick; I'm already turning green.

But seriously, nice collection. How do you like the old style skinny grips? And isn't it curious that the first M&P's sported the round butt? Now you can get them again, though not in too many models. I've had a couple of pre-war models and still have one. As far as shooting them, I honestly could never tell the difference between a pre-war and post-war or short action or long action, if everything else was the same.

The NRA museum has some of Ed McGivern's guns, all pre-war, I suppose. They were used a little. Also, what do you think of the nickel plated guns? They are not so common anymore.

Yes, the pre-war S&W's (and Colt's) were nice but they weren't inexpensive, no more than they are now. I suspect a lot more Iver Johnson's got sold.
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Old January 16, 2007, 07:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Also, what do you think of the nickel plated guns? They are not so common anymore
Hello Bluetrain
I believe the reason for all the Older Nickel revolver's was mainly Corrosion issues. The Nickel seemed resistent to corrosion unlike the Blued revolvers. Here is a second series Hand Eject in .44 Special. Evidently the grips were changed at the Factory when it was refinished in 1957 according to the 5 Sided Factory rework star and dates on the grip frame.Regards, Hammer It.
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Old January 16, 2007, 08:20 AM   #13
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Oh, obviously the reason for the nickel finish was for rust resistance and nowadays we have stainless (which will rust--some). I don't even know if nickel finishes are still available or not. I also wonder if nickel only came in bright or if there were ever matte nickel finishes, though I know there are now. But I always liked the matte finish some of the pre-war S&W M&P models had, but it was probably the least expensive finish even so. Today I rather like the matte stainless that some revolvers have.

S&W came out with a few models I believe they called their Heritage series or something like that, which included some target sighted M&P models with light six-inch barrels and I believe some were nickeled. I've seen them but not had a laying-on-of-hands. How do you think those measured up to the pre-war standards?
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Old January 16, 2007, 08:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
I don't even know if nickel finishes are still available or not. I also wonder if nickel only came in bright or if there were ever matte nickel finishes, though I know there are now.
S&W came out with a few models I believe they called their Heritage series or something like that, which included some target sighted M&P models with light six-inch barrels and I believe some were nickeled. I've seen them but not had a laying-on-of-hands. How do you think those measured up to the pre-war standards?
Hello Blue Train

From what I have read and Heard from other's on this subject the Factory Nickel finishes disappeared in the Mid to late 1980's sometime. I Have heard that the EPA Regs. were the cause of it , and I have also heard the Labor was more intense for preparation before Nickel can be applied, so it was a cost cutting measure to cease Nickel Finishes. I Have seen some recent Nickel finishes Poping back up in special edition revolvers as the Model 29 and model 27, but they are in small quantities. As far as the Heritage series revolver's I have no opinion whether they are as smooth as the Pre-War revolver's because I do not own one. One thing I do not like on them, is the factory made them with a round Butt configuration. The Originals were square butt's, and it does not Look like a heritage series with a round butt. This evidently was another cost cutting measure, due to the Material saved from making them a square butt. To me being a high price Performance weapon, they should have followed through by making an exact copy of the original Looks wise, as They sure charge enough for them. Regards, Hammer It.
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Old January 16, 2007, 09:37 AM   #15
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Actually, I believe the original, very first, S&W Military & Police revolvers were round butt, although I cannot state when the square butt became standard. I believe most of their earlier revolvers were also mostly round butt (Is that enough wiggle room or not?). The first M&P revolvers also did not have the forward lug on the underside of the barrel that the ejector rod clips into. I am probably not referring to any name correctly except the barrel. Either way, it did have the oversized end (compared to later) or knob on the ejector rod. The US Navy purchased some of the first M&P models.

One could amass a large collection of S&W K-frames alone, with all the variations that have occurred over the years right down to the present. I have a light (people say "skinny") 4" barrel with a frame mounted firing pin, round butt, new style cylinder release, blued Model 10 which does not have the internal lock, although the hammer appears to be grooved for it. I owned one Model 10 with a 4 1/4" barrel, though I can claim nothing otherwise special about it. The rarest may be the .22 RF fixed sight revolvers. My favorite might be a Model 65 LS (they don't make 'em anymore).
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Old January 16, 2007, 09:44 AM   #16
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It sure would be nice to have a key to the models in the photo... nice stuff.
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Old January 16, 2007, 10:18 AM   #17
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I just remembered that the S&W Model 58, which was a .41 magnum N-frame, was also referred to as an M&P (I'm pretty sure). The previous fixed sight N-frames had other names but I don't think were ever referred to as M&P models.
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Old January 16, 2007, 04:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
The previous fixed sight N-frames had other names but I don't think were ever referred to as M&P models.
Hello
You are correct. the Early-N-frames were called Hand ejects or the ones with a barrel extractor shroud were called Triple Locks in the Older-N-frame class. Most M&P Revolver's were fixed sight K-frames Being Either Pre Model 10's or later Models. They did how ever call the Model 58-N-frame an M&P due to the fixed sight, and lack of an extractor shroud.Regards, Hammer It.
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Old January 17, 2007, 12:16 AM   #19
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I'll play. I had this 1905 for a short time but decided to trade it toward a convertible blackhawk since the frame was bent and it had an over tight single action hammer set.
I'd love to find another.

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Old January 17, 2007, 12:24 AM   #20
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Old January 17, 2007, 07:20 AM   #21
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Here's my 3rd Model HE, 32 Long, circa 1917...

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Old January 17, 2007, 03:13 PM   #22
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How do you like pre war kit guns?
Guess HammeIt has one in perfect conditions somewhere.

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Old January 17, 2007, 05:48 PM   #23
Hammer It
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Quote:
Guess HammeIt has one in perfect conditions somewhere.
Hello Carlo
You Guessed wrong, I sure can not see almost 5 Grand for a Pre-War Kit Gun Either and a good thing you didn't bet a weeks pay on that. The Kit guns came Later than the Original Bekeart 6" Traget revolver's actually in a serial number range of 534,587-534,636 the Link you Provided shows a very nice Pre-Model 34 which was in Essence S&W's first attempt at making a Target sighted .22 Revolver, that was Later replaced with the Larger K-frame model 18 of which I have one from 1958. It was an I Frame originally later changed to a slightly larger -J-frame. Fondly named the 22-32 as The Early ones were a .22 On a .32 revolver M&P Frame with adjustable sights. When they called them a Kit gun they Gave them 4" barrels and it was said this name was given to Fishermen or Hunters that wanted to drop in in a Tackle box or their Pocket due to shorter barrels. The Ones I have come across are well worn and too shabby for me to add to my collection. The Early one's with 6" Barrel's were called Bekearts Fondly named after the famed California Gun Dealer Phil Bekeart. He initially ordered 1000 made from the 22-32 Frame wiith adjustable sights. he received his first alotment of 292 Revolver's, and did not follow through with the Rest as they were a slow seller. Every Body and their Brother would Like to think any model 35 is a Bekeart revolver, Truth of the matter is to be a true Bekeart revolver they came with extension stocks serial Numbered on the Bottom of the grips along with the front strap of the revolver and the serial number coverage for TRUE Bekeart Guns was 138,226-139,275 and they were shipped in the 1911 Range only. The remainder of the Original Bekeart revolver's did not ship until 1914 and were called simply 22-32 Target revolvers. Regards, Hammerdown
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Old January 17, 2007, 06:57 PM   #24
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Oh, I see.
I will drop the jaw one time less, good news for the keyboard.

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