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Old January 5, 2007, 10:31 AM   #26
Trip20
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Just as the, "one should only draw if one intends to fire" attitude is too absolute for real life, so follows the "one must fire multiple rounds at an attacker until they fall down".

It appears people feel "stopping the threat" means - and only means - one response is relevant.

If this officer felt either the immediate threat ceased, or that the threat became controllable to a degree that did not warrant further shooting – I say he used great restraint where others might have kept going.

Many Rambos would foam at the mouth for an 'opportunity' to empty their magazine at an attacker such as in this video. To justify this action they swear by philosophies so absolute that little opportunity exists for a response relevant to the threat posed – rather all threats receive the same response.

I’d wager the officer is satisfied with the outcome, and with knowing he did not take another human’s life.
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Old January 5, 2007, 10:54 AM   #27
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I agree Trip20. The ,,,, I woulda, coulda,,,, he shoulda doesn't fly. Until you've been in a situation where the adrenaline is squirting out your ears,,,, nobody knows what they would do. Believe me,,, you go on auto-pilot and nothing makes sense.

Did anyone key in that the officer was NOT in fear of his life after the shot was fired and the knife dropped? He realized the bad guy was no longer a threat enough to have to shoot him again and it appeared he was trying to prevent further injury to the moron,,,, if he could. After all else failed he had to resort to putting him on the ground and was still treating the guy right. Hooray for him.

Remember,,,, it's NOT about "getting to kill" someone,,,, it's about neutralizing the imminent threat.

Last edited by delzo; January 5, 2007 at 11:12 AM. Reason: ?
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Old January 5, 2007, 11:13 AM   #28
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Stark contrast with the UCLA video, eh?
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Old January 5, 2007, 11:18 AM   #29
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He should have used a .22 on the bad guy, so it that the bullet would have riccocheted around in his body and killed him.
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Old January 5, 2007, 12:49 PM   #30
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First mistake?

I saw this video several years ago and thought the same thing I did when I watched it again: what was that cop thinking when he let the BG pull a knife to "open the box."??? I'm not a cop-basher and have numerous friends who are LEOs but that was a stupid move.
Now, for a one-shot stop, check this one out. Don't know the caliber but it's worth seeing as a comparison:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK7h5wSeets&NR
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Old January 5, 2007, 05:42 PM   #31
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Cop went home, bad guy went to hospital/jail. Not a bad outcome for a deadly force encounter with a drugged up suspect. No such encounter is likely to be perfect in the real world. I'd say in this case don't argue with success.
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Old January 5, 2007, 09:17 PM   #32
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The 45acp is a worthless cartridge !!! www.breitbart.com/news/2007/01/05/D8MFB7A02.html
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Old January 6, 2007, 03:13 AM   #33
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mete: That was a falling bullet. Mythbusters did a special about that, a falling bullet will hit terminal velosity as the wind resistance becomes higher than the wight of the bullet. Only if it is shot at an angle where it may retain it's trajectory will it cause damamge.

The guy was shot just above the hip. Nothing really vital there. The fact is, unless you land a bullet right in the heart, or brain, it will not instantly kill. You hit them in the lungs, they will either bleed to death, or drown in thier own blood, but it still won't be instant. Most deaths by gunshot are from bleeding to death. There is the shock factor that may "stop" them. Also, many people who have a functioning brain, relize they are shot and then saving thier life is thier only concern. But you get someone in a complete suicidal rage, or espeically on drugs, you better put one in the heart or brain.

That police officer showed a lot of restriant. If he finished that guy off it would have been justified. That POS meth-head probally got sympathy from the judge because he had been shot. POS's like that do not need to be with free society.
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Old January 6, 2007, 04:47 AM   #34
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The 45acp is a worthless cartridge !!! www.breitbart.com/news/2007/01/05/D8MFB7A02.html
I don't believe that another caliber in the methhead's gut would have done significantly better (maybe 12ga 00 or a fragmenting .223). But I have attended tests myself and read more reports of .45 bullets failing to penetrate as well as the "thinner" calibers like 9x19, .357 Sig/Mag or 7,62 Tokarev. Solid leather jackets or skull bones can stop a .45, thats a fact. Still: Foor steel challanges or bowling pin shooting, the momentum of the .45 is unbeaten....
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Old January 6, 2007, 12:31 PM   #35
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Just make sure you shoot 3 times, like 2 (to the triangle) and 1 to the head.

When YOUR life is at danger, forget having a "soft" heart.
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Old January 6, 2007, 01:19 PM   #36
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I've seen a guy shot 6 times with a 9mm and survive and I've seen a 1 shot drop with a .22. The stomach is not the place for a one shot stop unless it's 00 buckshot maybe. Not faulting the officer, the guy came at him with a knife he drew and fired. The advantage still goes to the guy without a bullet in his guts.
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Old January 6, 2007, 02:39 PM   #37
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The officer did a good job under a very tough situation. And hat's off to the citizen who stopped to help.

Interestingly enough, I recently heard of a shooting involving a .45 Long Colt to the abdomen in which the victim stayed alert and responsive. This was even as he was treated and released from the hospital!

(Reminder to self: Shot placement is crucial!)
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Old January 6, 2007, 04:24 PM   #38
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I agree, a buckshot would have torn up so much tissue he wouldn't be able to stand, probally broke the back on the other side as well. A more powerfull weapon would have blown through the other side, much more damage, probally a broken pelvis, now that would have put him on the ground.

For one thing, most people don't relize what really happens in a fight like that. Even defence classes, teach you to draw, aim with arms extended.... not what happened there. Martial arts, most teach to keep your distance. IRL, that doesn't happen. Kind of like in a fist fight, sometime you just trow a sloppy punch or kick just to get the hit in, the officer could barley pull his weapon, he just needed to get in a hit, and for the most part it worked. He should have kept shooting because it almost turned around on him. My point is, if you get in a situation with a knife fight, that is most likley what it will be like.

I know many people who have been shot, some accidently, some military, a few LEO's. A Korean War vet told me when he got shot around the kidney, if felt like a punch. He figured a rock or something kicked up hit him. He said he got up and started running then felt wet, then relized it was a shot. He ran to cover, then called the medic. None of them who had been shot (of course not fatally) were downed by the shots. When I was 16, I got into a fight with another boy and when I got the upper hand, his little brother who was 13 grabbed a small baseball bat and jumped in. He got me several times, and I hurt bad later, but i ended up beating both of them. (the older was bigger than I was) I felt the hits, but they weren't stopping me.
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Old January 7, 2007, 10:32 AM   #39
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ya know people and animals are funny when it comes to high stress situations, and you can never predict how things will go down. I dont care if its a .22 magnum, or a .454 casull you have to make your hits first. of course with the latter i would feel more confident with 2-3 hits and the former i would unload everything i had on the bg. Our courts are sooo effed up that alot of times the bg is some sort of valiant in the wrong place at the wrong time on the wrong drugs, and ohh that cop was using too much force. Wasnt rodney king on drugs? maybe those cops were excessive, maybe not im not here to judge.
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Old January 7, 2007, 09:22 PM   #40
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01-05-2007, 09:31 AM #26

Trip20 wrote:


Quote:
Just as the, "one should only draw if one intends to fire" attitude is too absolute for real life, so follows the "one must fire multiple rounds at an attacker until they fall down".

It appears people feel "stopping the threat" means - and only means - one response is relevant.

If this officer felt either the immediate threat ceased, or that the threat became controllable to a degree that did not warrant further shooting – I say he used great restraint where others might have kept going.

Many Rambos would foam at the mouth for an 'opportunity' to empty their magazine at an attacker such as in this video. To justify this action they swear by philosophies so absolute that little opportunity exists for a response relevant to the threat posed – rather all threats receive the same response.

I’d wager the officer is satisfied with the outcome, and with knowing he did not take another human’s life.


To which, on

01-05-2007, 10:54 AM #27

delzo wrote:


Quote:
I agree Trip20. The ,,,, I woulda, coulda,,,, he shoulda doesn't fly. Until you've been in a situation where the adrenaline is squirting out your ears,,,, nobody knows what they would do. Believe me,,, you go on auto-pilot and nothing makes sense.

Did anyone key in that the officer was NOT in fear of his life after the shot was fired and the knife dropped? He realized the bad guy was no longer a threat enough to have to shoot him again and it appeared he was trying to prevent further injury to the moron,,,, if he could. After all else failed he had to resort to putting him on the ground and was still treating the guy right. Hooray for him.

Remember,,,, it's NOT about "getting to kill" someone,,,, it's about neutralizing the imminent threat.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by delzo : 01-05-2007 at 11:12 AM. Reason: ?
Personally, I view this type response as, 'limited thinking'.

I'm not trying to flame anyone, or cause a war. Not everyone has the skill, or training of a LEO, even the poorest trained LEO. I'm one such person. Unfortunately, all the training, no matter how expert, or how intense, or extensive, will never get me to the level of skill, as even the most limited trained LEO. This is just a physical fact of life, unfortunately.

I am very aware that the best chance I have is to follow the advice of Bill Sansom, retired Undersheriff, Mineral County, Montana, who advises, "a handgun should never be used as a deterrent, but, if needed, it should be drawn and fired immediately, and always used to kill - not to wound or frighten your attacker." ('Not Looking To Die', A. Macomber, 2001, Applegate Books, Applegate, CA.)

Note: Bill Sansom was hit COM with two 240 grain .44 magnum rounds, as he responded to a duty call, at the door of a local resident. A third .44 magnum 240 grain round ripped out leg muscle, and ruptured the artery in his thigh.

I'm not near as capable as Bill Sansom, nor will I ever be. He was able to take out the Bad Guy, with his .357 magnum loaded with 158 grain JHP's. I would have died.

I think Mr. Sanson's advice is sound. I am not a Rambo. The LEO may not have been in fear of his life, after the shot was fired, as suggested by delzo. I can assure you that I would have been, with an aggressive man confronting me, even with only fists. I agree with delzo that, "Remember,,,, it's NOT about "getting to kill" someone,,,, it's about neutralizing the imminent threat".

'Never use the word never. - S.I. Hayakawa
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Old January 10, 2007, 04:52 PM   #41
Tripplethreat
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You can second guess Mike's actions all you want to,but bear in mind that the shot was made at point blank range.
I'll give you a little history on "Miami Mike" if you're interested. Mike Ralston is one of the finest troopers to ever put on the uniform.When this man went to trial the judge told him at the end that Trooper Ralston used uncannily remarkable restraint in shootimg him only once. I agree.
There was and probably still is a practice with the Ga. State Patrol of awarding Troopers a lightinng bolt which is painted on their cars for every felony stop they make resulting in arrest.Ralston had lightning bolts completely down one side of his patrol car.They started at the front fender and went all the way back,scross the doors to the end of the rear fender on one side.A pretty long row of the blue lightning bolts was already started on the other side of the car.
Mike Ralston's specialty was drug i nterdiction traffic stops along I-75 in Gordon county. He has made so many big,big cases they're innumerable.
Some of you may remember Van Keller,the Ga. State Trooper who wrote many articles for Combat handguns and other law e nforcement oriented publications.While Mike was building his incredible reputation along the interstate, Keller was testing and evaluating the Smith & Wesson Mod. 645 for possible adoption by the GSP. Mike was becoming well kn own and Keller sent the T&E 645 down to Ralston to give him more firepower should an incident involving several perpetartors happened to go bad.
I fired that particular 645 on a couple of occasions.My partner with the SO and I have backed up Ralston on several of the interdiction stops. Keller was stationed in an adjoining county.
My partner liked the 645 and bought himself one shortly after the first time we fired Mike's gun. I was carrying a customed S&W 629 4 inch at the time and was well satisfied with that. The big transition to autos had only recently started in law enforcement. Eventually the improved Mod. 4506 was introduced and the Ga State troopers were given a choice of that or the 5906 in 9mm. About half chose the 45,the other half chose the nine.
Since that time they have transitoned to Glock 22's,and are now moving from these to the Glock 37's in 45 GAP.
This incident shows two things. First of all it shows a Trooper's restraint,and second of all it once again proves that one shot cannot be counted on regardless of the caliber. Mike had every right to shoot and probably should have shot to slide lock or at least until the perp was out for the count.
That he did not do so,resulted in the man living,standing trial and going to prison. Trooper Ralston's mother was killed by a drunk driver in Calhoun while I was a deputy there. He did not exact revenge on every dru nk driver he arrested after that,he just went about doing his job as usual. That in itself
speaks volumes about the kind of man he is. I feel honored to know him and respect him highly both as a friend and a law enforcement officer.
Were mistakes made? Sure,probably. All I can say is,walk a mile in his shoes. You don't know how you look,'til you get your picture took.
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Old January 10, 2007, 05:08 PM   #42
auburnboattail
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Bad Guy

If you are carrying a semi auto... break off a few and put the perp down.
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Old January 10, 2007, 08:15 PM   #43
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I would like to have seen the results of being shot cente mass in the chest. Lower abdomen is like a non hit. shoot a deer in the gut with a ga slug and they keep running. shoot them in teh lungs and its lights out
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Old January 15, 2007, 07:08 PM   #44
akr
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We didn't see the actual shooting, but it appears maybe the officer drew the .45 , the BG grabbed it and it discharged into his abdomen. The officer chose not to shoot him again, and I feel he felt that he could hold off the guy physically until help arrived. I don't believe the officer ever intended for the abdomen to be his target. I felt that he showed much self restraint. I'm sure that if one of us had been the officer, we would not have done any better under the circumstances, if as well.
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Old January 15, 2007, 07:34 PM   #45
tepin
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wow. the cop should have emptied his gun in the guy
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Old January 15, 2007, 07:44 PM   #46
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I think its funny that most people think that the is a drug addict or on something. I think that wouldhave said he was on something if that was the case. Think about the addrenalin (cant spell) runing throught the body after just trying to carve up the officer. After the shot the bg backed up and tossed the knife. The office was showing great restraint. No one needed to die just get the threat stopped and the situation under control. In the end the officer stopped the threat by protecting him self and the saving the bg from himself. The officer did his job PROTECT and SERVE.
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Old January 15, 2007, 10:15 PM   #47
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Quote:
Regards to the civilian placing a bearhug on the meth addict .Good job !
Didn't get to see that part, youtube messed up and only downloaded the first 2/3s of it. But I did see the part where the guy was shot and going around yammering and fighting with a .45 slug in him.

I remember a story Ed Lovette related in The Snubby where two policemen shoot it out with some man on LSD. They unload their 6 shot service revolvers (12 shots) and 5 shot BUGs (10 shots) into the punk with only 2 or 3 misses before he finally went down. The rounds used were .38 Spl.+P LSWCHP.
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Old January 15, 2007, 10:24 PM   #48
akr
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Thank God for shotguns and buckshot!
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Old January 16, 2007, 08:22 PM   #49
Ares45
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anything that's worth shooting once is worth shooting twice (or more)...
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Old January 16, 2007, 09:04 PM   #50
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not that you should aim for it, but isnt a shot to the kidney (or any wound that ruptures the kidney) nearly instantly fatal?
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