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Old January 1, 2007, 05:40 PM   #1
Dennis2
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Officers of the Law,Your Advice?

It's very unlikely, maybe like the odds of getting struck by lightning. But I witnessed it in St. Louis, Missouri up close and personal. I didn't witness the beginning of it, but what does a citizen do when seeing a large black man (or anyone else) wrestling and beating up a police officer on the side of the road in broad daylight? I was faced with it! I had some very mixed emotions on what to do! Like, it's not my problem, they get paid to deal with this.

In an instant I did decided to render help, and even getting my body messed up. I had no weapon other than to try and help wrestle this big dude with the officer's help and try and subdue him? As I pulled over to the side of the road about 30-50 yards infront of the patrol car and about to get out, I saw several police cars about to get there. I put my car in drive and cautiously left the scene knowing he had help.

Even though a person with the best of intentions tries to help the police, he will become an initial suspect and roughed up until it all gets sorted out, after the fact. Most likely he will have a knee on his neck, be roughed up some, and handcuffed at a minimum. Then there is losing work and legal battles for the do-gooder?

I would like to know if the police officer wants the civilian to stay out of it? They are the professionals.
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Old January 1, 2007, 07:44 PM   #2
jhenry
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It has happened before

There are quite a few officers out there who owe their well being to a civilian who did something besides watch. Yeah, it might be awhile before the responding officers sort it all out, but would you rather watch someone get maimed? Every situation is different but a loudly yelled "I called 911" and "do you need help" would be the first 2 things to do. If I was about to get my skull caved in I would be very happy to yell back "YES PLEASE!!!" and the steak dinner would be on me. Every situation is different and a very large dose of common sense and due caution is in order. You need to get home safe too. Be careful.
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Old January 1, 2007, 08:37 PM   #3
ISP2605
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Like, it's not my problem, they get paid to deal with this.
The police get paid to protect society from those bent on violating the laws. The officer was not out there wrestling with that guy just to be wrestling. It's not like some bar fight where 2 people have a difference of opinion and take it to fists.
So it is your problem if you consider yourself part of society.

Quote:
Even though a person with the best of intentions tries to help the police, he will become an initial suspect and roughed up until it all gets sorted out, after the fact. Most likely he will have a knee on his neck, be roughed up some, and handcuffed at a minimum. Then there is losing work and legal battles for the do-gooder?
Why do you think that? Don't you think the officer you are helping wouldn't be screaming at the responding officers that you are helping? If you don't know the answer to that, then here's the answer - you bet he will and most likely he and the responding officers will make sure you are well taken care of for offerring to help.
Every year we have a statewide awards ceremony where we give real nice awards to everyday Joe Citizens who have stopped to help our people on traffic stops that have gone bad or in some other way made a difference by volunteering to help when they could have easily driven right on by.
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Old January 1, 2007, 08:47 PM   #4
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Good way to get shot. If the officer has lost control of the situation, aren't the odds real good that the BG may get his gun and shoot the officer, and the helper?

S
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Old January 1, 2007, 08:48 PM   #5
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what does a citizen do when seeing a large black man (or anyone else) wrestling and beating up a police officer on the side of the road in broad daylight?
For the love of God, you try to help them! Put the guy in a choke hold or something... at least give the cop enough of a chance to radio for backup (if he hasn't already) or slap cuffs on someone (or both of you). Assume he is right. After it gets sorted out later, it will be all good. Heck, even if it's not a cop, if I see someone getting their butt kicked on the street and it looks like they are in danger of gettting seriously hurt/killed... I'll do what I can to help them out. My conscience won't allow me to sit there and watch someone get beat to death. Maybe I'll get in trouble, who knows, but I'm not going to sit and watch while taking pics with my cellphone.

But to answer your question... I can't imagine a cop taking offense at an unsworn citizen helping them from the situation you described. I doubt they prefer the beatdown.
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Old January 1, 2007, 09:22 PM   #6
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Not an LEO, but a similar experience

I was out driving one day 25-odd years ago, when I came across a LEO struggling with a BG. It just so happened that the LEO was my brother. Backup arrived quickly, and the BG was taken away.

I got into a bit of hot water and my brother's police chief made me come in and fill out a statement, and the BG threatened to sue me (never did).

Would I do that again? Yes, I would. LEOs may be paid for doing some nasty work, but if I can help without getting their way, I will. I don't carry and don't pretend to be a LEO, just a concerned citizen.
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Old January 1, 2007, 11:25 PM   #7
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My position is LEO and teachers should be paid the same as congressman. Would solve a LOT of problems...

S
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Old January 2, 2007, 12:26 AM   #8
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"I got into a bit of hot water and my brother's police chief made me come in and fill out a statement, and the BG threatened to sue me (never did)."

The police chief is a rectum.

As a retired cop, if I was getting MY butt kicked, I'd welcome help from a girl scout!

Dennis2, if you don't want to stop and help, because of what ever reason, then don't, just keep on driving.
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Old January 2, 2007, 01:40 AM   #9
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"I got into a bit of hot water and my brother's police chief made me come in and fill out a statement, and the BG threatened to sue me (never did)."

The police chief is a rectum.

As a retired cop, if I was getting MY butt kicked, I'd welcome help from a girl scout!
Yes, the chief was a fool. He took a leave of absence to try another job with the USCG, and subsequently got fired from both of them. And the ex-chief should have known better -- he was a lawyer. My brother, lifetime LEO is now the Chief of Police in his commmunity, ~20 years now.

I don't carry, other than my shillelagh, but If I can help out a cop without getting in the way, you can bet I will.
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Old January 2, 2007, 01:45 AM   #10
T. O'Heir
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I couldn't imagine not helping a flat foot in need. Wouldn't be right not to.
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Old January 2, 2007, 03:24 AM   #11
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I did this once 30 years ago for a California Highway Patrol officer who was rollin' around in the center median gravel with a 2-time loser. Waded into the brawl with a 4-cell "maglight" type flashlight and managed to take the fight out of the guy, then helped CHP handcuff him. Would I do it again? Probably not in the same way as I'm no longer young, limber and as quick. But I'd do something.
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Old January 2, 2007, 03:38 AM   #12
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I couldn't imagine not helping a flat foot in need. Wouldn't be right not to.
Wow! "flat foot." You must be an old phart like me. I haven't heard that expression in a dog's age (another old-phartarism).
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Old January 2, 2007, 07:47 AM   #13
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Just an observation since this is a firearm site and the forum is "Tactics and Training". I find it a bit strange that the internet commandos who talk about carrying this type gun and that kind of ammo and what they'll do to protect themselves from the big bad boogie man, all other miscreants, and protect the world from mall terrorists yet on a scenario when someone needs help "I'm not getting involved. It's not worth it." or "I might get hurt and then who will pay my bills."
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Old January 2, 2007, 08:48 AM   #14
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I can't imagine not helping. And that goes for it being a non-LEO as well. As a human, and a Christian, I value the lives of innocents more than my own finances or freedom. Even if a time-traveler came back and told be I would get sued and would lose, I would still help. I cannot sit by and watch someone being harmed and even die because I am thinking of myself.
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Old January 2, 2007, 09:41 AM   #15
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As has been stated, there are officers who owe their lives to citizens who helped. Police Officers are not supermen, some are better fighters than others just like everyone else. A fight on the side of the road is life or death. I would welcome any help if I was fighting a BG.

I once fought a guy I was trying to arrest for 10 minutes before help got there, I was scared to death. I was able to get one cuff on, held onto the chain in a death grip. When it was over he had several broken ribs, a broken humoris, broken collarbone, and several bruises. It turned out he was on heroin and PCP. Any help would have been welcomed, but we were rolling around in an alley. That was 1988 and I still remember it as if it was yesterday.

The important thing to remember is to announce yourself load and clear to the officer.
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Old January 2, 2007, 10:35 AM   #16
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No question about it, a citizen SHOULD go to the aid of a police officer, BUT....

If you have a cell phone, CALL the police! While you're on the line, tell them that the officer MAY need your help, and give the dispatcher a quick description of what YOU look like!

Do you carry tear gas or pepper spray? They would come in handy, even if the officer gets sprayed! As long as the knock-down/drag-out fight comes to an end, and the officer isn't severely injured (just "snotty" from the pepper spray), you MAY have saved his/her life WITHOUT having to wade into the fray!

Give a quick survey of the surroundings. Are there other people that, like you, might not want to wade into the fight by themselves? You might yell to them, and get them to join together to save the day for the officer.

For you folks that CCW, a quick assessment of the fight MIGHT cause you to believe that a SAFELY FIRED "warning shot" might be necessary! A "warning shot" should be your LAST resort, however! AND, please use your brain! Holster your firearm BEFORE other officers arrive, so as not to attract attention to YOU! (A "safe" warning shot would be to find a grassy or soft dirt area nearby....not in the air or onto concrete!)

Several years ago, a Torrance P.D. (So Cal) officer was involved in the fight of his life with a psycho that was HUGE. The psycho was able to get the officer's 1911 pistol out of the holster and aimed it at the officer. He also pulled the trigger several times, but didn't know how to disengage the thumb release (the pistol was cocked and locked). A group of men jumped the psycho, wrestled him to the ground, disarmed him, and assisted the officer in getting him handcuffed. Those men didn't know each other, but when one of them loudly announced, "We've got to jump that guy!", they all ran to help. They psycho got "roughed-up", but....so what? All of those men who assisted the officer were given written commendations and honorable plaques for what they did.

Remember the Austin, Texas sniper? An armed citizen aided an Austin police officer. They stormed the school clock tower together and put an end to the killing (11 students died....it would have been more if that citizen hadn't aided the lone police officer!)

Last edited by DesertShooter; January 2, 2007 at 10:41 AM. Reason: additional
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Old January 2, 2007, 11:23 AM   #17
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it's not my problem, they get paid to deal with this.
If it was a pretty young lady getting raped, or beaten, you wouldn't have taken this position or even thunk it...

I would prefer you come in and offer assistance, and if I am able to answer...
I will let you know...

This approach will also protect you from being thought to be a suspect...

As a citizen it is your responsibility to assist as needed...

Thanks for stopping... you are a good citizen...
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Old January 2, 2007, 01:36 PM   #18
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I can't imagine not helping. And that goes for it being a non-LEO as well. As a human, and a Christian, I value the lives of innocents more than my own finances or freedom. Even if a time-traveler came back and told be I would get sued and would lose, I would still help. I cannot sit by and watch someone being harmed and even die because I am thinking of myself.
I agree 100% as well as what Pointer said above.
If he wasn't a LEO and it was a woman getting raped would you step in and help? If not, you are of no benefit to society, sorry just the way I feel. I had a situation where a buddy of mine rolled up on a female deputy wrestling with a 300 lb 6"4" black guy on PCP. This is when I lived in CA. turns out the female was waiting for BU when this guy went nuts and attacked her, she had already dumped her PS into this guy's face and when we approached she was on the guys back off the ground trying a choke hold. This guy was walking around the yard with her on his back as if she wasn't even there. One more reason why I feel most females should not be on patrol by themselves. Anyway this lady was screaming for help, there was about 10 males standing around just watching, I couldn't believe it. My buddy and I jumped out of my truck and took a tire iron to the guys Knees, he finally came to the ground and we were able to get him handcuffed with the help of some other men that decided to help, it took two pairs of cuffs with a nylon zip tie cuff in between, this guy was huge. When Back up arrived they drew down on us that were helping until the officer explained the situation, this was perfectly understandable. They took our names and we received many, many thank you's for what we had done. I was a lot younger than, and CA was a no carry state and still is, would I do it again, you bet, but this time I have a sidearm if the situation required it. A LEO in a fight for life is no different than anybody else being attacked by a BG, I am going to help all I can.
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Old January 2, 2007, 03:22 PM   #19
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Take away the badge and the cop is just another guy who would need help. No differant then I.

If a guy was beating up on a Man in uniform (Marine, Soldier etc.) you think a cop would walk by and think 'oh, he was paid and trained to kill/disarm people' and keep on walking?

Just my opinion.

-Max.
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Old January 2, 2007, 03:57 PM   #20
Dave P
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Dennis, are we a bit prejudiced?

"what does a citizen do when seeing a large black man"
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Old January 2, 2007, 06:10 PM   #21
G-Cym
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I notice you left out where he typed "or anything else". Nice try.
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Old January 2, 2007, 06:12 PM   #22
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I had the opportunity to witness such a struggle between a cop and a drunk college student. I've known the cop for several years.The cop is in excellent physical shape with tremendous fighting skills. It was dark and raining. While he wasn't losing the confrontation, it wasn't ending either. I asked "Do you want me to help ya"? "Yeah! Grab a hold of him!" The student almost lifted both of us twice. The pepper spray just ****** him off. I don't know how my knuckles got scraped up...

It all happens in a flash. I couldn't be a cop for the simple reason that when the drunk was in custody, I wouldn't have been finished. A dark, rainy night, hidden between buildings? He woulda fell down several times.
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Old January 2, 2007, 07:21 PM   #23
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a couple of loggers

It wasn't BillCA that saved my bacon but it was a couple loggers on the Redwood Coast that did. And I was real glad to see them. Like Chadwimc said, it got to the point where I had to slow the loggers down a tad. They were intent on getting even. During the 5 years I worked there in the 70's I got help several times from truck drivers, loggers and volunteer firefighters. In those days almost every male was a volunteer firefighter.

As for what to do in this day and age. That has to be an individual decision based on what you know about yourself and how you see the problem in front of you. Just let the copper know you're there to help. Whether you jump in the fight or jump on the cell phone there will be one forever thankful lawdog .
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Old January 2, 2007, 09:02 PM   #24
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I may be wrong, . . . but it seems to me that it was about a year ago when an older gentleman saw a big dude working over a cop down Cincinnati way. If I recollect correctly, . . . he shot the big dude a couple COM shots, . . . finally put one .45ACP between his ears, . . . ended the situation.

There are a few cops I know personally, . . . could not care less about them as they are arrogant maggots, . . . but if they needed the help, . . . I'd help out, . . . to the point that the older gentleman did down Cincy way.

Like it or not, . . . they are the only thing that stands between our present society and chaos.

May God bless,
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Old January 2, 2007, 09:04 PM   #25
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Yes, I have couple of cops living directly across the street from me.

Quote:
Take away the badge and the cop is just another guy who would need help. No differant then I.
If they ever needed help, I'd do the best I could. Cops get paid, yes, but they're my neighbors and nice people. I'm hardly a bruiser, but if I could help, I certainly would.
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