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Old December 23, 2006, 12:20 PM   #1
castnblast
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First 22 cal deer killed...just as good as the old 7mm Rem Mag

There...That'll stir up a controversy...

Anyway, I finally got a deer this year. I was previously a big bore club member, but a shoulder injury had me reconsidering things this season. Wednesday I killed a Doe at 183 yards per the range finder. I was using a 55 gr. Sierra Game King Spitzer Boat Tail loaded w/ 33.5 grs. of Benchmark powder. Bullet went right where I put it. Smack in the shoulder and exited the opposite side behind the shoulder. The Lungs were just blown to shreads. The deer went approx. 30 yds tops, and dropped dead. The amount of tissue damage was amazing. A lot more than I would have suspected from a varmint gun. I know the thicker jacket of the game king made a huge difference difference. I was impressed. I have to admit, I was a bit nervous about shooting a deer at that range with that combo. The deer was moving too much for a neck shot, and since the season is almost over, and I have yet to put one in the freezer, I took a crack at it. Glad I did. Now I have more confidence in this caliber, and my bullet choice. Again, the lungs were just pulverized. I would not want to get hit w/ that combo.
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Old December 23, 2006, 01:04 PM   #2
rem33
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I truly believe it is where you hit em more than with what using. Not that I endorse 22 calibers for deer but have a buddy that usta use a 22-250 and have seen deer killed with a 222 from a Contender that did just about like you describe.
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Old December 23, 2006, 02:11 PM   #3
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congrats on your clean kill--however i dont think that this one incident should be viewed as how the rest of you shots/kills with a 22 caliber bullet are going to be. a semi-auto like a remington 7400 has no recoil hardly and would be a much better choice for deer. your shoulder hurting shouldnt be a reason to make unethical shots.imo
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Old December 23, 2006, 05:09 PM   #4
castnblast
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yada yada yada... Like I said...I used to think you had to have a Magnum to kill deer too...Then I got educated. There is nothing unethical about taking a deer with a precisely loaded cartridge, and taking a methodical shot, using the right bullet, and surgically implanting it right in the boiler room...The deer down in this part of the country are small. This one went around 115lbs. Not the monsters they have up north. As soon as I get a digital camera, I'll show you guys in the big bore club what a bullet traveling 3700+ fps does.
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Old December 24, 2006, 02:08 AM   #5
keita
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I agree...it is silly to call his actions unethical.

Have you killed all of your game in one fatal (ethical) shot??

If you say yes, then you are a liar or a lucky newbie.

I have seen plenty of people use 300, 308 with less than desirable results due to shot placement.

I would somewhat agree however, that shooting a deer with 22 is NOT for everyone, and we should regard your experience as one anecdote, and perhaps not to be expected every single time.
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Old December 24, 2006, 08:16 AM   #6
Art Eatman
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Hey, look, gang: The improvements from all the R&D in bullet technology make it a whole new world with regard to "suitable" cartridges.

Once was, .22 centerfire bullets were only designed for very rapid expansion. 40- to 55-grain bullets were about all there were, and they'd generally blow up on rabbits. Heck, a sheet of thick cardboard.

That's no longer the case, as castnblast's vignette illustrates.

There is still the caveat about size of animal and angle of shot. A cross-body shot on the average whitetail isn't the same as shooting at an elk from a rear quartering angle.

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Old December 24, 2006, 01:24 PM   #7
kwkoch
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maybe the term unethical was a little harsh--but only a little.
i never said you had to have a magnum caliber. even the small for deer 243 would work. i guess if every variable is perfect and all the deer you are seeing are small then maybe things will work out for you.
Quote:
Have you killed all of your game in one fatal (ethical) shot??
keita-- maybe you take risky shots, maybe you carry a 22 for deer. but speak for yourself. in over 20 years of deer hunting i have NEVER lost or even needed a follow up shot on the 60-70 deer i have taken with a firearm. i dont take risky shots through brush or beyond my equipments capibilities. also per state law i use a shotgun. it is scoped with a rifled barrel and pushes 385 grain bullets at 2000 fps and 3419 ft.lbs. of energy, some call it a disadvantage but i wouldnt switch if they allowed rifles. now archery is a different subject but since we are talking firearms i wont get into that.
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Old December 24, 2006, 06:00 PM   #8
oldbillthundercheif
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5.56 kills deer dead. Although I gave my swamp-rat buddy hell for using such a weenie little round he has made numerous clean kills on whitetails. I saw one drop like a sack of bricks instantly and I guess that is a fairly standard result from what he tells me. That little .223 has replaced his .357 Taurus revolver as his hunting firearm of choice...

It still seems weird to me, but he fills his freezer with it so I can't argue too much.
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Old December 24, 2006, 08:25 PM   #9
keita
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kwkoch, you are missing my point.

I have never needed a follow-up shot, (well, I use 30 caliber), but I don't get them to drop without taking a step EVERY SIGLE TIME. I have had to track one down for a 1/4 mile one time, that's a long follow for me, but that's not the point. My point is labeling someone as unethical by shooting a small caliber to hunt is absurd. If you start doing that, what you call those muzzle loaders and bow hunters?

I would like to see every game drop like a sack with single shot, but that's just not realistic, and eveyone has his/her own reasons for using whatever firearm/caliber/bow etc. to hunt. To each his own, so keep your bragging and judemental opinions to yourself.

I personally wouldn't use a 22 to hunt for bucks, but if someone wants to and is able to hit the vital area and drop it with a single shot, more power to him.
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Old December 24, 2006, 08:44 PM   #10
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i wasnt bragging you asked me a question and i answered.

Quote:
Have you killed all of your game in one fatal (ethical) shot??

If you say yes, then you are a liar or a lucky newbie.
all i am saying is that if 22 caliber was the optimum cartridge for deer then why isnt everyone using it? you seem to be on the same page according to your last statement. the title of this thread was first 22 cal deer killed just as good as the old 7mm rem mag. do you agree with that statement? yes a well placed 22 in the boiler room will kill a deer, but would you replace your deer rifle with a varmint rifle? i mean cmon lets go shoot a cape buffalo with a 270 while were at it. ill stand behind you.
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Old December 24, 2006, 09:52 PM   #11
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The problem with labeling a caliber choice "unethical" is where is the cutoff point?

If the 22 centerfire is all one can shoot due to injury or aversion to recoil, what are they supposed to do? Not hunt?

Shot placement trumps all, when it comes to quick kills on game.


WDM Bell, an ivory hunter from the early part of the 20th century killed most of his over 1,000 elephants with the 275 rigby. That nearly obsolete cartridge is comparable to the 7x57 mauser cartridge.

He was a very good shot.
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Old December 24, 2006, 11:07 PM   #12
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skipjack,

That caliber IS the 7x57 Mauser according to most references I've ever heard.

Anyway, while I wouldn't do it around here, I don't see why a .223+ class centerfire won't work for deer hunting. In this state ANY centerfire rifle is legal, and lots of people use .410 slugs to kill deer. IMO the .223 is world's better than the little mini-bore shotgun.

But I guess part of it is situational. Around here at certain times, there is a possibility of your deer getting taken by another hunter before you find it. I doubt this is the only place that could happen. I'm just more comfortable carrying a rifle in the 6.5mm+ range and figuring if need be, I can just go through the shoulders.

Lest I forget: Congratulations on a clean kill!!

Some of us have to wait to next season for our chance again!
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Old December 25, 2006, 12:11 AM   #13
keita
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kwkoch,

You should just reread my first post.

Enough said.

I just have a problem with your "unethical" statment.
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Old December 25, 2006, 06:45 AM   #14
juliet charley
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I've killed a lot of deer with a .222. I'd have to say it's "just as good as the old 7mm Rem Mag" (it's hard to beat 100%). I'm am an ethical hunter (and the calibre I choose to use has NOTHING to do with it).
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Old December 25, 2006, 09:30 AM   #15
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anything under .24 aint legal for deer in my state. My thoughts are if it's geared toward self defense against the 2 legged crittersm it will do plenty fine on deer. I would have no problem using a .223 class weapon to hunt deer, but like i said aint legal in this state...
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Old December 25, 2006, 09:30 AM   #16
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keita, I think you're bringing in "ethics" where it's really a case of common sense. If the package of rifle&cartridge plus hunter's judgement creates a clean kill, where's the problem?

I've tagged a little over 40-some bucks. A few neck-shot bucks needed a coup de grace because in my mind they were dead but just didn't yet know it. So, courtesy to Bambi.

I can recall only one buck that actually required a second shot for the kill, and he was a running buck that I hit a bit far back in the spine. But he was pinned in place.

I've lost two cripples, total, in these forty-some years of playing with Bambi. One I would have killed with a second shot but for swinging into a 4X setting sun; blind guys don't shoot accurately. The other? I saw the hit, saw blood fly out the off side--and two hours of searching by me and my father were fruitless.

All of which has zilch to do with .22 centerfires, but I stand by what I said in my earlier post. but I'll repeat: Today's bullet technology has changed the ballgame a good bit. What was a bad idea in the past is much less so, today.

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Old December 25, 2006, 10:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
your shoulder hurting shouldn’t be a reason to make unethical shots.
That kind of holier-than-thou comment does the hunting fraternity considerable harm. We have enough people on the outside with sharp sticks looking to gouge hunters and firearm owners without doing their work for them.

Also, when someone says that a caliber or hunting method is not allowed in their state that is their state and perhaps not applicable in other places. Just because the wildlife resources agency in one part of the country say this or that practice is not allowed in a given area does not means it's unethical or undesirable in another.

Castnblast may be posting about his experiences in TX. I'm about 100% sure Art is. 223 is legal there. I was blessed to live and hunt in TX for many years and had friends who hunted deer in TX with 223 successfully all the time. No horror stories to report.

Hunting is like a lot of things that require knowing your personal limits. What part of castnblast’s original post points to the fact he didn’t?

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Old December 25, 2006, 10:57 AM   #18
sanson
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my buddy uses a ruger m77 in 223 because he's too old to accept the recoil from his 30-06.. He just makes certain the shot will be placed well or he doesn't pull the trigger.
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Old December 25, 2006, 12:17 PM   #19
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If you have to use a smallish gun, less than 6mm rifle or less than 41 handgun for medical reasons, I understand. There is no question that using a 223 on deer sized game is questionable at best. If you can handel a legitimate deer cal then please use it. If not at least pick your shots. I am sad to say a large percentage of deer hunters I have delt with are not ethical. They dont pratice, they shoot over property lines, they take running shots etc.

We can not expect the antis to stop poking sharp sticks at us so long as so many hunters sharpen the sticks for them. I am a hunter and I am disgusted at what I see other deer hunters doing, so how can we expect the libs to not be. When an opportunity to shoot appears, if you wouldnt bet $500 you could make the shot on the first try then dont take it. If you take a shot you wouldnt bet $500 on would be a clean kill on the first shot then yes, unethical is the right word for your behavior and what you are as a person. That includes distance, skill and gun/ammo choice etc.

An animal is not a person, but dyeing from infection from an unethical person's unethical shot is missery that a decent person would not inflict on any animal. You can do everything right and still have a runner or a miss, but in your heart you know if you would have taken the $500 bet or not. Tell whatever "story" you want in camp, but you know what you did and what you are. An ethical hunter or trash than brings the libs down on all of us. They dont need any encouragment or free ammo agienst us.



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Old December 25, 2006, 12:57 PM   #20
Art Eatman
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Now, don't be knocking the Eatman family's running shots. My daddy's ghost would shake his head at the benighted, and Uncle Joe's ghost would look out over his thick-lensed glasses in a manner that would make you feel you should crawl back under your rock. Such incompetence!

Running shots are nothing but high-speed integral calculus you do in your head. Crosshairs, lead, Bambi's speed and distance: Put it all together and kill him.

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Old December 25, 2006, 01:25 PM   #21
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Good job CastnBlast. As long as your pick your shots well, the 223 will do fine. I don't see anything wrong with taking a deer with a 223. It is not my first pick, but with the right bullet and proper shot placement, it is just is deadly as the 7mm. You just have to know the limitations to the caliber. I wouldn't recommend taking a 250 yd shot or a quartering shot with it, but if you pick your shot well, it will work fine. A few years back, I had shot a nice buck in the morning and decided to try to take a turkey in the afternoon. I took my Savage 223 with me, and what do you know, right before dark an 8 point that went 23 in wide and weighed about 175 lbs walks out. I got up to about 125 yds and waited to it turned broadside and the 223 dropped it in its tracks. The deer got up and ran about 20 yds and killed over. I've shot numerous hogs, small to large, with a 223 and dropped them all. You hit them under the ear and they can't tell the difference between that and a 7mm. It's not a caliber I would recommend to an inexperienced hunter, but in the hands of someone that knows what there doing, I don't see anything unethical about using this caliber.
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Old December 25, 2006, 01:43 PM   #22
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I agree with both ammojunky & trooper. the hunter knows before pulling the trigger. a few hunters can get frustrated and take shots they normally wouldn't.. my old buddy with his 223 will let the animal pass if it isn't a sure thing. I wish he would sell the .223 and get a .243 instead. light recoil and better on deer
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Old December 25, 2006, 04:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Running shots are nothing but high-speed integral calculus you do in your head.
CalllQQlessss , No I wont be doing any of that in my head, or takeing any running shots. I sleep just fine with an empty frezer and a clean concious. I know of a family of hunters that have to get deer to have meat to eat, I am not crazy about some of their antics, but I understand that baging the meat is a lot more important to them than me.
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Old December 25, 2006, 05:42 PM   #24
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Whoa guys... didn't want to start a ******* match here. Sorry. And, of course no offense taken, and my reaction was a little...well could have been more professional. Anyway, the key here is I do know my gun. Nor do I advocate for everyone to use a 22 to hunt deer. If I were hunting in another part of the country where the deer are larger, I'd not use the 22-250. I'd pick the .243. I still really prefer the 7mm. rem mag. But It's nice not getting the crap slapped out of you, and being able to pull the trigger and not being the least bit concerned about recoil...Plus it's a fun gun. I'd also add that I have probably fired more rounds through this particular firearm then the average hunter will ever fire in their lifetime. This gun has already had at least 300 rounds through it, and I just bought it in July of this year. This is a 22-250, and not a 223, which is generating a lot more velocity and tissue damage. Frankly I'm amazed at the amount of damage that occured. Actually, it was incredible. Key is placement. I know my gun, and shooting a smaller gun, I waited for the right shot. I'd prefer a neck shot w/ this gun, but the animal was moving too much. So I opted for the shoulder. Also, Keep in mind I'm shooting PRECISELY LOADED HAND LOADS. I measure each shot to the exact .10 gr of powder, w/ no deviation. It makes a difference.
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Old December 26, 2006, 11:32 AM   #25
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Ammo Junky, conscience has nothing to do with it. It's all cold-blooded calculation of putting the bullet where the deer (or rabbit or coyote) will be when the bullet arrives. Calling the shot in front of witnesses and making it.

That's one of the reasons for rabbit hunting in the off season. Build in the reflexes so you can hit running targets.

Back before the race guns and trick holsters of IPSC, a buddy of mine lived in Winnemucca, Nevada, at the time of a population explosion of jackrabbits. He would walk through the sagebrush and when a jack jumped and ran, he'd draw and fire. He got to hitting (about) one out of three with a Commander .45ACP.

It's like anything else: Set up a practice system and learn the skills.

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