The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old January 2, 2007, 12:50 AM   #51
Glockoma
Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2004
Posts: 29
M1911, I realized where I went wrong -- thanks for clearing this up.

What I thought to be a safety lever that's connected to the transfer bar, is a cylinder release. Duh! This was to be my first revolver, you see, and the only type I fired in the past was the fixed-cylinder SA type, so I got confused and forgot all about the cylinder swing out. Now that that's cleared up, it seems that carrying a DA-capable revolver with a fully loaded cylinder is similar to carrying a chambered Glock.

I think I'm stumbling toward the realization that I'd be more comfortable with a CCW piece that has a manual safety, such as the 1911. I don't want to grab for the Glock in the heat of the moment, misplace a finger when squeezing the grip, and blow a hole in my leg or my kid. That was the motivation for empty-chamber Glock carry, but I'm coming around to the 1911 + condition 1 line of thinking.
Glockoma is offline  
Old January 2, 2007, 12:50 AM   #52
LSU12ga
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2006
Posts: 407
has anyone been to israel?

I have, (born there) and i will tell you, its probably for the best that they carry this way. If you ever get a chance to go, you will notice that the military is everywhere, and i mean everywhere. walking around with loaded assult rifles and side arms. I'm sure they have the best intrest of the public at hand by walking around with an empty chamber. In israel, as i am sure you are all aware of, knive vs gun is not the issue. It is everyone vs plastic explosives and nails. Having a loaded gun will not do you any good against a man with a bomb strapped to him.
LSU12ga is offline  
Old January 2, 2007, 08:00 PM   #53
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Quote:
Now that that's cleared up, it seems that carrying a DA-capable revolver with a fully loaded cylinder is similar to carrying a chambered Glock.
Indeed it is. If the gun is loaded and you pull the trigger, it goes bang. The main differences are that 1) the Glock has a higher capacity and 2) the revolver has a much longer, harder trigger pull
Quote:
I think I'm stumbling toward the realization that I'd be more comfortable with a CCW piece that has a manual safety, such as the 1911. I don't want to grab for the Glock in the heat of the moment, misplace a finger when squeezing the grip, and blow a hole in my leg or my kid. That was the motivation for empty-chamber Glock carry, but I'm coming around to the 1911 + condition 1 line of thinking.
Don't expect me to argue against carrying a 1911 condition 1...

However, if your fear is having your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be there, then I would argue that the answer is more/better training not different equipment. I've attended Lethal Force Institute, Sigarms Academy, Smith & Wesson Academy, and Cumberland Tactics. I strongly suggest that you get your self to some additional training and then practice a lot dry.

You can screw up with a manual safety as well, so that's no panacea for a lack of training.
M1911 is offline  
Old January 3, 2007, 11:27 AM   #54
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
"that shooters may be too locked on a certain course of action."

Truer words were never spoken

Too many people start carrying a gun and it replaces every other tool in the box

Even when it is NOT the best choice

Other tools

1. Avoidance- whether you are armed or not....it certainly should not be less important simply because you are armed

2. Unarmed skills- even if you are going to employ a firearm you are likely to need to fight your way clear enough to use it...or prevent the bad guy from taking it

3. Edged weapons- Can be more safely employed in some situations


Back to the topic at hand....an unloaded gun is akin to ....

#2 with handcuffs on- you have the key but you need to unlock them

#3 with a folding knife that requires two hands to open
OBIWAN is offline  
Old January 3, 2007, 11:42 AM   #55
jem375
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 390
It's kind of amusing that people who have absolutely no experience in life or death situations can even question how the Israeli's handle their firearms. These people have been raised in those situations for many, many years and have mandatory armed forces service for both women and men.
I remember years ago seeing a picture of a bus where everyone on the bus were either carrying a Uzi or handgun and I am pretty sure they knew how to use them.
__________________
Life is too short to spend it with an ugly gun.....
NRA Life Member
jem375 is offline  
Old January 3, 2007, 12:11 PM   #56
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
It appears the safety element advanced by advocates of chamber empty carry has been ignored by those who suggest other carry methods. The problem is not so much any possible danger in actually carrying an automatic with a chambered cartridge as it is the danger in unloading the pistol. I am assuming the handgun is unloaded at some point in a 24-hour day or it the pistol continually cocked and locked. The same issue applied to a double action automatic but not to a double action revolver or some single action revolvers.

Whatever you may think of that possible problem, Fairbairn appeared to have been more concerned with the safety of an automatic, Colt in his case, being on safe when you needed it off. None of you would ever have a problem like that. On top of that, handguns in his department were turned in at the end of the shift and re-issued to the next shift. What a concept!

This is beside the point but it has been suggested by one magazine writer that handguns are inherently safer than long guns and are generally intended to be carried ready for use. That may be arguable but all things considered, they should be expected to be, if nothing else.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old January 3, 2007, 12:29 PM   #57
jem375
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 390
In the Navy on SP duty, it was mandatory to carry a 1911 in condition 3 and my son who was an MP at Ft. Bragg also stated that he carried in cond. 3 so it is not unusual to have chamber empty. Even in Germany in the 80's, MP's at his base carried their M16's and 1911's with chamber empty, No big deal at all..
Of course everyone has their own idea on how to carry and whatever suits the individual is up to him or her.
__________________
Life is too short to spend it with an ugly gun.....
NRA Life Member
jem375 is offline  
Old January 3, 2007, 03:57 PM   #58
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
Israeli Carry Mode

I think people are overlooking an essential truth here.

Israelis carry a pistol in condition 3 because it's Israeli law.

Israel's carry laws require the gun to be carried with an empty chamber (to prevent accidental discharges) and with the safety off. This way, in the event of an attack, any Israeli can take the gun from another injured Israeli, rack the slide and commence firing. Part of this is due, as someone else pointed out, to the incredible hodge-podge of firearm types carried. Their method works for their particular needs.

I should also point out that Israelis are limited to possessing only 50 rounds of ammunition and that ammo is only sold at state sanctioned ranges.

For civilian carry, I see no sense in carrying in Condition 3. This is especially true with more modern DA/SA and DAO pistols. If you are not comfortable with a C&L style carry, purchase a pistol that doesn't require that mode.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old January 3, 2007, 05:00 PM   #59
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
I'm glad to hear Israel has such liberal laws.

If what I was thinking is true (that the danger is in the actual chambering and unloading), then all automatics are in the same boat. It doesn't matter what sort of carry condition is possible with a given automatic. Hammer down on a loaded chamber would be especially difficult but at least one double action automatic has no hammer drop safety, though it can be carried cocked and locked. Some single action automatics cannot be carried hammer down, including Stars and pre-war Colt hammerless autos. Only revolvers can be loaded and unloaded without manipulating the hammer, except for some single actions, though for autos I am referring to a chambered round.

The Israel method appears to be the Fairbairn method of handgun drill, more or less.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old January 3, 2007, 06:24 PM   #60
G-Cym
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2006
Posts: 366
Quote:
For civilian carry, I see no sense in carrying in Condition 3. This is especially true with more modern DA/SA and DAO pistols. If you are not comfortable with a C&L style carry, purchase a pistol that doesn't require that mode.

+1

And for those that do carry C+L pistols, like 1911s, stop telling others that their choice of pistol isn't as good as yours.
G-Cym is offline  
Old January 4, 2007, 08:29 AM   #61
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Quote:
And for those that do carry C+L pistols, like 1911s, stop telling others that their choice of pistol isn't as good as yours.
I haven't seen anyone saying that.

While I prefer 1911s, I also have 3 Glocks, a couple Sigs, 4 Kahrs, a couple HKs, numerous S&W revolvers. I'd feel well-armed with any of them.
M1911 is offline  
Old January 5, 2007, 06:10 PM   #62
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
I am also sick of the arguments in FAVOR of condition 3 carry... to me it is a matter of common sense... the advantages of condition 3 carry DO NOT outway the advantages of condition one carry...
Coming in a little late here (gotta love those long vacations!) but many people are equally sick of the arguments that favor condition 1 carry as being the only way, and try to claim that condition 3 is useless. It is a matter of common sense, but that common sense has to look at the needs of each person, what their situation is, and so on. In some situations chamber empty carry provides advantages over chamber loaded carry. In others, chamber loaded carry offers advantages over chamber empty carry. In most situations it really doesn't matter much, truth be told. But to try to say that a person who chooses to go with chamber empty carry shouldn't carry at all, or is unsafe, or afraid, or is defenseless, or any of those other things, flies in the face of common sense as well as the history of defensive gun use.

Quote:
Israelis carry a pistol in condition 3 because it's Israeli law.
Yes, but many Israelis outside of Israel continue to carry condition 3, as do many individuals and organizations outside of Israel. Chamber empty carry was the norm for most of the 20th Century, and it is still the norm in some pretty tough places and for some pretty tough people today.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old January 6, 2007, 07:32 AM   #63
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Quote:
Chamber empty carry was the norm for most of the 20th Century, and it is still the norm in some pretty tough places and for some pretty tough people today.
It still is putting one's self at great disadvantage. The video and the techniques shown are pretty pittyful. Fist of all the guy runs for 10-15m towards the target, then racks the slide, squats down and only then fires. If his target hat a gun itsself, it could take him out the moment he started running. I bet I'd hit that guy at least 6 times COM before he got his first shot off in this particular drill just by standing, drawing aiming and firing.

And even that gun makes no sense to me Shabak/Shin Bet carry Glock19s anyway...
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old January 7, 2007, 03:06 AM   #64
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
It's not really important..

I posted originally and the Israeli tape was here becasuse I thoguht it was interesting. The arguing about condtions sounds like they are religions. It's nuts.

The chances of anyone ever having a CCW incident requiring them to draw a weapon are extremely small,and in a very large percentage of those highly unlikely occasions the BG flees. Out of the remainder, how many people are killed yearly becasue their 1911 pistol was in condition 3 instead of 1 or visa-versa? At some point, such a minute risk - if it does in fact lie in one of those - is as acceptable as any other of the scores of minute risks we all face and accept daily without altering our choices at all to lessen them or even being aware of them: eating a hamburger (Mad Cow!), buying tires every 2 or 3 years instead of every year (not as safe driving!), keeping a cell phone on during thunder storms (increased chance of lightening strike!) etc., etc, etc...........

If you really want to focus on something significant in CCW, it would likey be having any weapon placed on your person that would allow it to be drawn in a count of 3, with 1 or 2 of those taken up by shock, when totally surprised by a BG, in 20 degree weather under coats, sweaters, scarves and with mittens or gloves on - or carrying groceries home on a windy, rainy day with a hooded rain jacket and wet hands or, if you're lucky, under even ideal conditions.

Out of the 73 homicides last year in my city 17 of the victims (including two babies) were innocent people minding their own business. A good half of those were surprised in the type of situations I described above. None of them were CCW but if any had been, unless they could get a weapon out as fast as I said, they would be as dead as they actually are. And we could be them.

(Another fact , even if off topic: a majority of the killers found were under the age of 18, one was 13)

Last edited by gvf; January 7, 2007 at 03:35 AM. Reason: addition
gvf is offline  
Old January 7, 2007, 04:54 AM   #65
MicroBalrog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2002
Posts: 1,165
Remember that the Israeli Ministry of Internal Affairs distributes a manual to gun licensees that advises 'safe' practices on carrying and owning guns.

One of the practices advices is to carry the pistol with the safety off and the chamber empty.

The rationale is, supposedly (don't know if true) that if you are injured or disabled by a terrorist shooting, another civilian, not necessarily aware of the workings of the particular safety your gun uses, will pick it up and continue shooting.

This actually happened, too.

I think a Tel-Aviv lawyer got an award from the Mayor of Tel-Aviv for pickiung up someone's gun and using it on a BG some years back.

Don't quote me.
__________________
NFAOA Repeal 922(o)!
MicroBalrog is offline  
Old January 7, 2007, 04:56 AM   #66
MicroBalrog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2002
Posts: 1,165
Quote:
And even that gun makes no sense to me Shabak/Shin Bet carry Glock19s anyway...
Some of them do. THere's no real standartisation in pistols of thE Israeli forces.

Also, just for fun:

Picture of an actual Shin-Bet-Kuf person.
__________________
NFAOA Repeal 922(o)!
MicroBalrog is offline  
Old January 7, 2007, 07:14 AM   #67
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
like I said.....

like i said, a religion. (see the ignored post 2 above)
gvf is offline  
Old January 9, 2007, 11:23 AM   #68
Tokamak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Posts: 265
I am a little tired of the claim, too.

"If you do not carry one in the chamber, cocked with the safety on you might as well not be carrying. You will not be able to rack the slide fast enough, blah, blah, blah"

How about this. If you really want to be ready to shoot, carry your gun in your hand, safety off, finger on the trigger and point it at everyone you pass. Now you are really talking speed. Ignore the screams of the grandmas you scare, you can always shoot them to shut them up

Oh yeah, and get with it. The whimpy .45 and .357 have been surpassed by the mighty .50 cal handgun. Don't forget your extra 1,000 rounds of ammo.

NOTE: The above is SARCASM. I am not serious. Although, you might call it a reducto-ad-absurdum argument...
Tokamak is offline  
Old January 9, 2007, 02:22 PM   #69
Doug.38PR
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Posts: 3,298
Are my eyes fooling me or did I see the guy in the video pull back the slide with his finger INSIDE the trigger guard?
Doug.38PR is offline  
Old January 9, 2007, 02:41 PM   #70
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,736
As Dave and I have posted over the years, it's all relative risk analysis and which do you fear?

1. ND on the draw, etc.
2. Bad guy gets your gun
3. You are too slow to get the gun into action with unchambered carry

I always carried chambered because I once broke my wrist, ribs and badly sprained my ankle. The wrist and ribs were dominant side. Thus I had to switch hands for carry. One handed chambering is a royal pain. In fact, I took a class in injured shooters techniques with my arm in the cast and ankle wrapped up. Used my nondominant hand. Real word experience and strange serendipity. I then took LFI-1 and the Stressfire component with my non dominant hand a couple of weeks later.

Thus, if on the off chance, I lose use of a hand - I'm not futzing with the gun as unchambered techniques are a pain, esp. if you just got knock on your butt and are injured. That's my personal risk analysis as compared to yours. I have seen shooters draw a chambered 1911 and almost shoot their toes off.

But most people think that the gun fight will be the single mugger showdown I like to post:

Hello - I will mug you now.
NO - I'm drawing my gun.
Oh, I run away now.

No shots fired!!

Then no rounds in the gun work well also.

So you really don't have to worry if you play the odds.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 9, 2007, 03:58 PM   #71
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
If your goal is the ability to put the weapon into action quickly then there is no advantage to chamber empty carry

If your aim is "safety" (or the illusion therof) then chamber empty may be an advantage

I know people that carry chamber empty on a DA auto....I have no idea how you accidently fire a weapon with a 12 lb trigger (unless you have your finger on it ) but it makes them feel better

All handguns are safe in a good holster

Where problems occur (generally) is in gun-handling

Drawing, holstering, etc.

What I worry about is people training one way and carrying another

Even those people that I know that carry unchambered weapons practice with "one-in-th-pipe"

They are not unloading the chamber after every string

So they generally get very little practice in actually employing the weapon

And very few people practice one hand shooting enough let alone one hand manipulations

Despite the fact that a great many gun-battle injuries are to the hands because of the tendencey to "tunnel in on the weapon"

And I know of nobody that carries a revolver with the next hole empty...I wonder why that is
OBIWAN is offline  
Old January 9, 2007, 05:04 PM   #72
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
It still is putting one's self at great disadvantage.
Not necessarily, and that is my point. Depending on a variety of factors chamber empty offers certain advantages and disadvantages, and chamber loaded offers certain advantages and disadvantages. Usually the advantages and disadvantages are irrelevant to the situation, and either mode will work fine. Sometimes one works better than the other. If chamber empty carry was much of a disadvantage regularly we would have seen some evidence of that over the years. We haven't.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old January 9, 2007, 06:35 PM   #73
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Quote:
What I worry about is people training one way and carrying another

Even those people that I know that carry unchambered weapons practice with "one-in-th-pipe"

They are not unloading the chamber after every string

So they generally get very little practice in actually employing the weapon

And very few people practice one hand shooting enough let alone one hand manipulations
+1

Choose how you are going to carry. Then carry that way and train that way.

If you are carrying condition 3, then practice drawing condition 3. If you are going to carry condition 2, then practice drawing condition 2, etc., etc.

I see a fair number of people that carry condition 2, but at the range, they charge the chamber and fire, never decocking. Any bets on whether their first shot from DA will hit their target?
M1911 is offline  
Old January 9, 2007, 06:59 PM   #74
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
The problems mentioned in the previous post are two:

One, a lot of ranges will not allow practice more realistic than that of formal target shooting, either because of range layout and conditions (usually space) and for safety reasons. By all this I mean that drawing from a holster and shooting may not be possible. This makes doing that as a training exercise impossible.

Likewise, there remains a difference between training and experience. That probably goes without saying and admitting the fact does nothing to solve the problem. It is a built-in problem of most training that various conditions (of a range and of a training situation) are unrealistic or otherwise necessary simple for purposes of management. Still, some training is better than none, I suppose, and I am at a loss for a better solution. All the same, some training details could probably be changed with real life situations in mind. But given the low possibility of any given armed individual (here I am thinking of the police mainly) actually being in a shooting incident, it isn't surprising that rangemasters and training officers having other things in their minds.

As a comparison, if you go hunting, you probably want to spend some time at the range before the season opens but you probably don't regard that as much in the way of any realistic preparation for a deer hunt.
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old January 10, 2007, 07:37 PM   #75
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Quote:
The problems mentioned in the previous post are two:

One, a lot of ranges will not allow practice more realistic than that of formal target shooting, either because of range layout and conditions (usually space) and for safety reasons. By all this I mean that drawing from a holster and shooting may not be possible. This makes doing that as a training exercise impossible.
Bluetrain:

I think you are missing my point. If you can't draw from a holster at the range, it doesn't matter how you carry -- you still have to deal with the same restrictions on your training. That is, you will be just as disadvantaged if you carry condition 1 and can't draw from the holster at the range as you would be if you carry condition 2 (or condition 3) and can't draw from the holster. So whether or not you can draw from a holster at the range is orthogonal to what condition you carry in.

Furthermore, there are ways to train even if the range rules are difficult. For example, if you normally carry condition 3, when you are at the range, start with your chamber empty, but a loaded magazine. Point the gun at the target, charge the chamber and fire. Repeat. When you get home, put a target on the basement wall, load your magazine with snap caps, and practice drawing from a holster with the chamber empty, charging the chamber, and dry-firing at your target.

Similarly, if you normally carry condition 2, when you go the range, load your gun, decock, fire the first round DA, the second round SA. Rinse, lather repeat. When you get home, draw and dry-fire as described above, but start DA.

I shoot IDPA. I was stuck at Marksman level for a while. What allowed me to progress beyond Marksman was dry drills, starting from the holster, in the basement. While I'm doing that Condition 1, it can just as easily be done Condition 2 or Condition 3.

Nevertheless, the point is that if you normally carry condition 3, but start at the range condition 1, how do you think you will ever remember to charge the chamber in a crisis situation? Or if you carry condition 2, but practice condition 1, how do you think you will make a fast, accurate first shot in a crisis situation? Or if you carry condition 1, but start at the range in condition 0 (cocked and safety off), how do you think you will remember to take off the safety in a crisis situation?

Train the way you fight, fight the way you train. And there are ways to work within suboptimal range rules with a bit of imagination.

Last edited by M1911; January 10, 2007 at 10:35 PM.
M1911 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12982 seconds with 7 queries