The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 21, 2006, 04:58 AM   #1
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
Video: Israeli Army Draw; alternative to cock&lock

I ran across a reference once to an Israeli Army Draw - they carry 1911 Autos and HiPowers with empty chamber, then go thru some drilled training-process of pulling the slide back with the weak hand while the shooting hand and arm pushes the gun foward.
Sounded confusing but I found in Defense Review an article on a pistol which used video of their training - Israeli training - as part of an advert for the pistol company's own weapon. The pistol wasn't the point of the article, the video was. If interested, here is the article on that gun and a link to the video. I'm not saying this is as effective as C&L, just the first time I've seen a practiced alternative:
------------------------------------------------------

Exclusive: Kareen MKII 9mm Pistol Video Featuring Israeli Gunfighting Tactics
Posted on Monday, May 03 @ 08:57:19 PDT by davidc

Pistols by David Crane
david@defensereview.com

The download link for the Kareen MKII Pistol Promotional/Sales Video is located at the very bottom of this story. You'll have to click on "Read More" hypertext (below) to get to it.

Here's another oldie-but-goldie. It was thought to have been lost, but DefRev just uncovered it. It's the Kareen MK II 9mm pistol promotional/sales video(s). It actually appears to be two separate promotional/sales videos strung together. The video(s) was/were shot (we believe) sometime in the early-to-mid-1990's (unconfirmed). J.O. Arms was the importer/distributor for the Kareen MKII pistol, a Browning Hi-Power clone, which was manufactured by KSN Industries in Israel.

What's special about the Kareen MKII pistol video is that it features agressive Israeli shooting/gunfighting tactics and techniques, including shooting from moving vehicles, fast multiple-target engagements, and building/structure assaults. It also shows the Israeli method/technique of drawing, chambering, and firing (pistol). It's possible that the Israeli gentleman doing all the running and shooting in the video is...an ex-IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) Special Forces operator, although we haven't confirmed this, yet.

We should note that the beginning of the video has some minor damage (it's an old video) towards the beginning, but this clears up as the video progresses. We're not sure what caused this damage, but it may have been due to moisture, or a combination of moisture and sunlight. Miami gets pretty hot and humid. The video is still entertaining to watch.

Recommendation: DefRev recommends that you actually download the video and view it on your own system, rather than trying to launch/view it off the web. This is because it's a rather large file. An added benefit of downloading it to your computer and viewing it that way is that you will then have your very own copy of it. Since the video is in Quicktime format, you will need to have QuickTime on your system to view it. If you don't already have QuickTime, you can download the program here:
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/mac.html

Very Important Instructions for Downloading and Playing the Video: If you’d like to download and view the Kareen MKII Promotional/Sales Video, please follow these simple steps, to the letter : 1) Right-click on the link (below) to the video. 2) Left-click on "Save Target As..." inside the box that pops open, which will start the download process and save the video to your computer. DefRev recommends that you save the video either to your "Desktop" or "My Videos" file. 3) Once download is complete and the video file is sitting on your system, either left-click on the "Open" button in the download window or close that window and double click on the file itself to launch it.

Right-Click here to download the Kareen MKII Pistol Video.

http://defensereview.com/1_31_2004/kareen.mov
------------------------------------------------------------
MY POSTERS NOTE: I JUST CLICKED ON THE LINK AND DIDN'T DOWNLOAD.
IT WORKED FINE ON MY MAC FROM THE WEB. YOU
WOULD NEED QUICKTIME THOUGH JUST TO VIEW IT, BUT
THE PROGRAM IS GREAT ANYWAY, IS FREE AND I THINK A
FAIRLY QUICK DOWNLOAD AND THERE IS A WINDOWS
VERSION ON THAT FIRST LINK.

Last edited by gvf; December 21, 2006 at 07:49 AM. Reason: spelling
gvf is offline  
Old December 21, 2006, 07:12 AM   #2
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 5,156
Carrying an unloaded gun is ridiculous. If you can't deal with cocked and locked perhaps you shouldn't carry one !!
mete is offline  
Old December 21, 2006, 07:30 AM   #3
gvf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2006
Posts: 1,226
Yes, well....

Yes, well I don't carry one since I don't yet have my permit arrived. I was showing anyone who wanted to see it an intersesting video I found, I don't have an agenda I'm going to war over. I don't care how anyone shoots whatever they own - if it's going to be this sort of thing I'd just as soon ask to withdraw the thread. I think it best it be closed.

Last edited by gvf; December 21, 2006 at 07:47 AM. Reason: addition
gvf is offline  
Old December 21, 2006, 08:13 AM   #4
buzz_knox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 1999
Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse
Posts: 4,191
Your post isn't the issue. The others where the Israeli draw versus carrying a live weapon were the issue. I think those have left some ill feelings in some, and some unfortunate anticipation of future flame.
buzz_knox is offline  
Old December 21, 2006, 09:04 AM   #5
mvpel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2000
Location: Merrimack, NH
Posts: 1,847
I recall a story where an Israeli got shot in his left hand by a terrorist attacker, and had to load his pistol using his boot or some such.
__________________
Not a blacksmith could be found in the whole land of Israel, because the Philistines had said, "Otherwise the Hebrews will make swords or spears!"
1 Samuel 13:19
mvpel is offline  
Old December 21, 2006, 10:10 AM   #6
Mr. James
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 1,521
An LEO friend of mine likes to demonstrate clearing his H&K P7 using his boot. He was taught that for just such a case: a disabled left hand or arm. By the grace of God, he's never had to utilize that particular skill under fire.
__________________
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
Mr. James is offline  
Old December 21, 2006, 10:28 AM   #7
Slugthrower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2006
Posts: 823
Using your boot to load a semi-automatic pistol is easily done. You take the pistol in the hand that is uninjured , catch the front of the rear sight on the edge of the boots heel, push the pistol forward briskly. The slide will retract and strip a live round, be very careful to keep your finger out of the trigger-guard. This can also be done with a nice ridged belt. Using the belt method is pretty dangerous and great care must be taken to use it safely. There are many ways to charge a semi-automatic pistol. Using the rear sight on any right angle that has sufficient strength to grab the edge of the rear sight will due in an emergency.

Note: Your pistol needs to have a rear sight that is at a right angle to the slide. The front of the sight only needs to have a fraction of an inch of vertical face to catch. Some pistol sights are contoured for CCW and may not be able to do this.

If there is a will, there is a way.
Slugthrower is offline  
Old December 21, 2006, 11:36 AM   #8
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 5,156
No flame intended.Some of these proceedures are put in place by some official who doesn't know anything about it. The reality of it is that carrying an empty chamber requires TIME .If you need the gun you won't have any extra time .
mete is offline  
Old December 21, 2006, 11:37 AM   #9
Samurai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 901
gvf,

What you've just shown us is a prime example of the difference between "military" technique and "personal defense" technique.

In the military, you want three basic things from your weapons: 1. You want them to be portable, and you want them to be SAFE when portable. You want to be able to run, jump, duck, and belly crawl with them, without worrying about fragging the guy behind you, in front of you, or worst of all, yourself. 2. You want them to be available to shoot an enemy at range, i.e. when you see them on the battlefield. You DON'T want to wait for them to get close to you before you shoot. 3. You want to be able to get to your weapon as quickly as possible, while maintaining the other two priorities.

In personal defense, your primary concerns are: 1. You want to be able to get your weapon up and working QUICKLY. 2. You want to be able to get your weapon up and working with as few appendages as possible. 3. You want your weapon to work at CLOSE range. The closer you are to your weapon, the more desperately you need it to work!

So, carrying unchambered is a GREAT idea for the military, because it makes the gun more safe when you're moving around. But, go back and look at the video again. Notice all the superfluous movement necessary to draw, rack, and shoot. Notice the way the guy has to stick his right elbow out while he racks his weapon. In self defense, this is BAD!

In self defense, you want to be able to use your weapon WHILE you're being tackled to the ground. You want to be able to use your left arm to push a guy back WHILE you draw and fire with your right hand. On the offchance that you have to do this while you're actually rolling on the ground, you certainly do NOT want to have to stick your elbows out to rack the gun!

The ancient samurai stressed that the secret to personal defense was to minimize superfluous movement. Any extra movement that you make that is not necessary to completing your attack is wasted energy. Wasted energy will get you killed.

Keep this in mind...
__________________
- Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed!

- Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight?

- When in doubt, train, train, train...
Samurai is offline  
Old December 21, 2006, 01:17 PM   #10
OBIWAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,340
The original technique came about as a result of the Israeli's using a hodgepodge of weapons with differing operating systems and poor mechanics
OBIWAN is offline  
Old December 22, 2006, 02:04 AM   #11
Red Grant
Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2004
Posts: 98
To gvf,


Please take no offense from some of the more zealous proponents of "If you cannot carry in condition one, then you have no business carrying one."



It's a lot more intuitive, and safer to carry a SA semi-auto in condition 3 for those who are not into guns, but still have a legitimate need for it.

_________________________________________________________________


Excellent post, Slugthrower, I couldn't have said it better myself.



_________________________________________________________________

OBIWAN,


I thoroughly agree with your assessment.


One thing that I want to add to your observation is that the reason why Israeli want to go through all that horizontal movement was to build enough momentum to reliably chamber the weapon for those with less than average upper body strength.






I think it's important for us to examine techniques per se critically, not simply blindly accept them just because "Somebody said so!" or "It's from some country!"



......anymore than the notion that "we should buy weapons just because it's from "some country!"
Red Grant is offline  
Old December 22, 2006, 07:04 PM   #12
Alex_L
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2005
Posts: 144
Sorry to disappoint you, but it was a long time ago. All this stuff relates to B.G (before Glock) era
Alex_L is offline  
Old December 22, 2006, 07:27 PM   #13
BreacherUp!
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2005
Posts: 568
Quote:
So, carrying unchambered is a GREAT idea for the military, because it makes the gun more safe when you're moving around
Not sure where you are getting your info from. Every mil unit outside the wire is in condition 1. If you can't be trusted to walk, crawl, jump, crap with your condn 1 weapon, you're in the wrong line of work. Period.
__________________
Life's tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid.
BreacherUp! is offline  
Old December 22, 2006, 07:46 PM   #14
Doug.38PR
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Posts: 3,298
I carry my SA 1911 A1 .45 and Sig P226 9mm like this. The only difference is, both hands go for the gun at the same time at 3 o clock. Right hand grabs the grip (of course) and draws while the left hand is on the slide and the left hand pulls the slide back just after gun clears the holster and is moving forward into shooting position. The left hand ends up covering my chest and gun hand is pointed forward. You don't lose time drawing the slide back this way as they do and your gun is drawn about as quick as it would be ready to go from the holster. (Unless you are in a car as one of those men in the video was then you couldn't very well draw in this way)
Doug.38PR is offline  
Old December 22, 2006, 08:20 PM   #15
Slugthrower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2006
Posts: 823
Doug.38PR. Using that method maybe very quick from condition 3 for aimed shooting. If a person needs to draw from concealment the distance will most likely be at contact distance. You will need your off hand to fend them off. Point shooting will play a major role in swiftness to action. Don't fool yourself with that 21 ft rule. You will not have time for that carry method.

Most SD shootings are 12 feet or less. I am not saying that it won't work , you will have to practice alot and often to remain proficient. It is much more simple to have the pistol in condition 1. If if takes an average man 2 secs or less at 21 feet to make contact. How long do you have at 12 feet or less?
Slugthrower is offline  
Old December 22, 2006, 09:24 PM   #16
Doug.38PR
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Posts: 3,298
slugthrower,
I don't just practice this with aiming but also in point shooting as well almost from the hip. Nevertheless, it does leave my left arm occupied while it could be fending off as you said.
Some say "SD isn't going to be a fast draw thing" but I disagree with that because the element of surprise is not going to be on your side half the time (this is why I am not a big fan of ankle holsters .
Such is the case, for me, it makes the semi auto too complicated a weapon which is why I stick to carrying a revolver 75% of the time. However, I do carry a semi auto sometimes just to stay familiar and comfortable with them.
I am not as big a fan of carrying with one in the chamber as I used to be. Old school advise has taught me otherwise. I've learned to heed it.
Doug.38PR is offline  
Old December 22, 2006, 10:03 PM   #17
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 4,969
Is there no end to these threads? I have been restaining myself for quite some time, but at this point...

If you want to place yourself at a tactical disadvantage (intentionally and with pre-meditation), why not follow the logic tree and:

a. Carry Condition Three
b. No, better yet, carry Condition Zero (no mag in pistol)
c. While we're at it, leave the mag at home...
d. ...locked up, in the safe
e. Naw, make it at the bank, in the safe-deposit box (bad-a$$ ninja you are)
f. Now walk around with a blindfold and your seeing-eye chihuahua
g. ...and a sign around your neck that says "Blind, stupid and disarmed--rob/beat/kill me, please!)

Are you "safer" now?
And you want a CCW....why?

Are you an LEO/SWAT? Are you military SF? Israeli Mossad? Highly trained, razor sharp reflexes? Practice every day? Situational awareness finely honed?

Or are you just one of us, a regular guy with a CCW and a modicum of SA?

The deck is stacked against you. Party (or parties) unknown will not announce their presence or their intentions...and wait politely for you to react, present, and rack.

You will be behind the power curve when it happens.

Want to place yourself farther in the hole? Your call.

Not a wise one, IMHO, but the choice is all yours...and you will live (or die) with the results.
orionengnr is offline  
Old December 22, 2006, 10:39 PM   #18
Doug.38PR
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Posts: 3,298
.......oookay
Doug.38PR is offline  
Old December 22, 2006, 11:04 PM   #19
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 4,969
Quote:
.......oookay
Great.

Well reasoned, well stated, well presented reply.

I can see you gave your all to that post...care to try again?
orionengnr is offline  
Old December 23, 2006, 04:46 AM   #20
billydiesel
Member
 
Join Date: November 27, 2006
Location: Gainesville,FL
Posts: 55
Guys, this is pretty stupid, GSF was only trying to show us what some countries are practicing. HE WAS NOT SUGGESTING WE CARRY THAT WAY!!

This was a thread that he thought we might find interesting so he posted it and now it becomes an argument on how to carry. Why?

I actually found the thread very interesting. And actually these guys were pretty good at their method though I would not carry that way. But it was only to show us that some people have different tactics than us. NOT THAT WE SHOULD CARRY THAT WAY!

By the way, thanks GSF, I found it to be quite interesting.
billydiesel is offline  
Old December 23, 2006, 05:02 AM   #21
rkba_net
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2000
Posts: 153
I am also sick of the arguments in FAVOR of condition 3 carry... to me it is a matter of common sense... the advantages of condition 3 carry DO NOT outway the advantages of condition one carry... IMHO if one feels differently they should probably carry a revolver OR no weapon at all...
rkba_net is offline  
Old December 23, 2006, 08:15 AM   #22
Red Grant
Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2004
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_L
Sorry to disappoint you,..........

Why shoud it disappoint me? I was merely explaining one of the "why's" of "Israeli method" to OBIWAN.
Red Grant is offline  
Old December 23, 2006, 08:55 AM   #23
Slugthrower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2006
Posts: 823
The Israeli method of charging a semi-auto pistol is much preferred to the US Army sling shot method. I personally have always used the Israeli method, even when I did not know that it was their method. Four fingers and thumb is superior to using just the forefinger and thumb to load a pistol. My wife lacks the hand strength to use the sling shot, but can hold her hand tight to the body and push the pistol forward as the pistol slide is retracted much more efficiently this way. I also find that the purchase that this Israeli method gives me allows me to check my chamber safely without having to use other chamber checking methods.

Use what works for you, more than one way to skin a cat.

Last edited by Slugthrower; December 23, 2006 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Typo errors
Slugthrower is offline  
Old December 23, 2006, 09:27 AM   #24
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Yes, you can charge the chamber quickly if you have two hands free.

Yes, you can charge the chamber if you only have one hand free, but you can't do it quickly.

In a self defense situation, there is a good chance that your support hand might be busy -- pushing your spouse to safety, holding one of your children, or fending off the perp.

If you watch the video, it is clear that the shooter has spent many, many hours training. During that training time, he clearly could have learned to carry condition 1 or 2.

There is no point to condition 3. It doesn't help anything and in some situations it could put you dangerously behind the power curve.
M1911 is offline  
Old December 23, 2006, 10:59 AM   #25
miniuzi
Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2005
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by M1911
Yes, you can charge the chamber if you only have one hand free, but you can't do it quickly.
You can charge a gun one handed just as fast as you can two handed if you know how. A few examples can be seen at the link below. You can charge off your belt, clothes, shoe, holster, etc... Right hand, left hand shouldn't matter at all.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...22484305&q=mp5

It is simple and effective. Your mileage may vary.
miniuzi is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14929 seconds with 7 queries